So how many Android tablet flops and disasters will it take?

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Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
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He sure did!

Wait, I don't get it. :\

http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/JDPAContent/CorpComm/News/content/Releases/pdf/2011030-wrhs.pdf

We know, we know.....

How does dead last feel?

(of course the survey is horribly biased by consumers actually being able to decide what they like and make up their own minds, I'm sure if you had a few minutes to convince them of the absolute superiority of RIM products, and that there will soon be RIM tablets and phones that redefine the markets completely and take over the world, complete with sharks with lasers mounted on their heads and everything...)
 

runawayprisoner

Platinum Member
Apr 2, 2008
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Well, surveys are skewered anyways. You just don't take them without a grain of healthy salt.

Right now, it should be more about how Android tablets will start their counterattack.

XOOM just got Flash support. That's the good news. The bad news is it isn't a whole lot better than phones, and netbooks are still a hell of a lot better.

Some of the notable similarity to phone version: 480p and above still lags profusely, so anything at or above DVD quality lags harder than a PowerPoint slideshow without transition effects. Hulu still doesn't work. Flash elements still overlap UI elements. Zooming is skewered and laggy. Scrolling is still choppy. Having too many Flash windows open (too many means more than 1) causes the device to heat up, slow down, and seemingly freeze on subsequent tabs.

It's like looking a sword fight. iPad wields a slim, thin, short, limited in reach and feature, but fast katana. XOOM weilds a big sword with all of the bells and whistles that can be attached to it, but it can barely drag the sword, much less swing it.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,086
6,699
136
Right now, it should be more about how Android tablets will start their counterattack.

That's going to be a hard question, especially in light of the earthquakes in Japan. Analysts have been saying that Apple is going to have a hard time getting enough supply. That makes me think the other manufacturers may be even worse off, especially if Apple starts writing big checks for vital components in short supply.

I think we might see release dates for some devices start to slip and the available quantities for all tablets dip somewhat as well.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
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Here's the last paragraph from Anand's review of iPad 2:

So if you're actually torn between the iPad 2 and the Xoom my best advice is to wait. Apple needs to update iOS in a major way and Honeycomb needs a hardware update. Whichever gets it right first should get your money.

If you don't fall into the borderline camp then the decision is pretty simple. If you need a tablet that runs iOS today, the iPad 2 is great. If you're not sure, you should wait. Tablets are still a couple of generations from being really amazing. Everything between now and then are just steps along the way.

He sums it up fairly simply, he thinks iOS does not provide a good tablet interface and prefers Honeycomb to iOS in many ways but the Xoom is held back by it's hardware very much so.

Like I've said before, you should still wait to buy one since there's still so much more coming out soon.



Here's his review of the software:

The iOS UI hasn't changed much at all since the iPad launched last year. Apple eventually added folders and multitasking but this is still the same basic iOS we were introduced to with the iPhone 2G. On the plus side it keeps things simple. If you're an iOS user you're likely to feel right at home on an iPad. You can then pick up an iPhone or iPod Touch and get the same experience and even run many if not all of the same apps. Apple has always done a good job of taking care of its users that don't stray from the ecosystem and the iOS universe is no different.

There are still elements of iOS that I believe are unmatched in the industry. Apple does a great job focusing on how something should work and doing its best to implement that. To date I enjoy setting alarms/reminders more on iOS than any other mobile OS I've used.

Unfortunately, the iOS UI remaining relatively constant isn't always good. The multitasking UI is still not what I'd consider ideal. Switching between apps still requires a double tap of the home button, scrolling through a horizontal list of icons and tapping again once you found what you wanted. It's basically a less convenient alt-tab.

Notifications are also horribly obnoxious. When there was no support for 3rd party notifications in iOS it didn't really matter and the simplicity of the notification system was actually a benefit. However now all apps have the ability to send you notifications and many of them will actually attempt to do so. This results in an experience-breaking barrage of popups front and center on the iPad. While multitasking allows you to switch between an IM app, your email and a web browser, if you're casually talking to someone over IM you'll find yourself interrupted by popups as you try to simultaneously read email or browse the web.


The multitasking and notification limitations in iOS are actually two significant barriers that prevent the tablet experience from actually evolving.

In contrast we have the Motorola Xoom running Honeycomb. You can argue that the Honeycomb UI isn't nearly as smooth or consistent as iOS 4.3, however Google is experimenting with more productivity oriented UIs. Notifications in Honeycomb pop up in the lower right hand corner in a manner similar to what you'd expect from a desktop OS. Multitasking isn't perfect under Honeycomb either but you have an easily accessible list of the five most recently used applications that you can get to via a single tap. Google also took a very desktop-OS-like approach to navigation in Honeycomb - the nav/notification bar at the bottom always occupies screen real estate. It may fade out when you're in certain apps (e.g. watching a movie) but otherwise it's a permanent fixture. While not quite as invasive as the menu bar in OS X or the taskbar in Windows, the Honeycomb nav/notification bar is of the same family.

While Apple has definitely stepped up its ergonomics and performance with the iPad 2, the UI remains dated. I must point out that today, two years after the introduction of webOS, Apple still has yet to offer a multitasking experience that's anywhere close to what Palm did with significantly less resources. I'm not sure if this is a pride thing or a fundamental difference of opinion. If Apple keeps up its release schedule maybe we'll be surprised this summer with iOS 5.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4225/the-ipad-2-review/1
 

runawayprisoner

Platinum Member
Apr 2, 2008
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Well, if the XOOM is held back by its hardware, not a lot of upcoming tablets that have been announced so far has any luck. Most of them have hardwares similar to the XOOM after all.

Disregarding software issues, requiring a hardware upgrade is a big and costly thing. Not a lot of companies can afford that at this stage, where they are pushing production already.

And if we are talking about tablets that won't appear until end of 2011, they risk the chances of going up against an iPad 2 with iOS 5. I read the main concerns of the article being the notification and multitasking systems. What would happen to the conclusion should Apple be able to address those concerns?
 

smartpatrol

Senior member
Mar 8, 2006
870
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IMO webOS's approach to multitasking makes so much more sense than either iOS or Android. Open an app when you want to use it, scroll through your cards to switch apps, slide the card off the top to close an app when you're done with it. No widgets -- just leave a card open if you want it to update continuously.

Android's multitasking is sort of a mess, in my experience. You don't really know if an app saved its state, or whether it's still running & slowing your system down, after you exit. Occasionally I've had to use Advanced Task Killer when my phone started to chug along. Theoretically the OS is supposed to handle it, but it doesn't do a very good job.

Hopefully HP doesn't screw up the Touchpad. webOS could easily be the ultimate tablet OS.
 

runawayprisoner

Platinum Member
Apr 2, 2008
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The Touchpad looks like it has decent hardware. What I'm really afraid of, is that I saw some hiccups during the Touchpad demonstration HP did a while ago.

It's very similar to what I usually see on Android, and that's what got me worried that HP might go too deep with features and forget performance once again, just like with the Palm Pre. The OS is very sophisticated, and the UI is unparalleled, but performance is just... not too great.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
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The Touchpad looks like it has decent hardware. What I'm really afraid of, is that I saw some hiccups during the Touchpad demonstration HP did a while ago.

It's very similar to what I usually see on Android, and that's what got me worried that HP might go too deep with features and forget performance once again, just like with the Palm Pre. The OS is very sophisticated, and the UI is unparalleled, but performance is just... not too great.

I'd still deal with the occasional hiccup if they kept the UI top notch. Notifications and multitasking even after all this time are still the best in the business nearly 2 years later.
 

mammador

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2010
2,120
1
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All Android tablets have to compete for a market follower position. I can't see any Android model surpassing the iPad.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
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All Android tablets have to compete for a market follower position. I can't see any Android model surpassing the iPad.

They don't need to. That's never been Google's strategy with Android with any of their products. People seem to forget that.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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"I still fundamentally believe that web browsing and email are the killer apps for tablets and as such I don't put too much weight in Apple's iPad app advantage. Long term I believe that the most important apps will be available on both platforms, so unless there's an app that you want today that's an iOS exclusive I wouldn't lose sleep over it."
Anand nailed it on this one.

"As you can see by the SoC upgrades Apple has thrown into the iPad 2, for the next couple of years you should expect Apple to be upgrading at a rate faster than Moore's Law. Eventually this will level off but for the iPad 2, iPad 3 and probably even the iPad 4 we'll see this sort of aggressive ramp in hardware capabilities."
Missed it on this one. The main reason A5 SOC performance grew so much over A4 is not magical, it's a brute force approach of more than doubling the chip size from 53mm2 to 122mm2. This is a one shot deal, since the chip is already at the boundary of what is economical for a tablet device. For comparison, AMD Ontario APU die size is 77mm2.
So I would not expect similar performance improvements between generations going forward. There are going to be some of course due to architectural improvements and process shrinks, but even keeping up with Moore's law will be difficult. If anything, Apple may have adopted model similar to that of game console manufacturers, where they go all out on initial release to future-proof the hardware for a few years, and then let Moore's law take care of the economics down the road.
 

runawayprisoner

Platinum Member
Apr 2, 2008
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While the die size may be large on the A5 right now, thermal and power consumption didn't suffer.

If Apple can keep up the same thermal and power envelope, they can keep pushing the size all they want.

Size would only affect board layout and placement of other components. It shouldn't affect anything related to performance if Apple can keep the same capacity for everything else.

That aside, Archos is pushing a dual-core 1.6GHz ARM Cortex A9 Honeycomb tablet soon:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/20/sneak-peek-at-archos-gen-9-tablets-1-6-ghz-dual-core-a9-process/

Seems like roughly a 50% incremental step in performance for Honeycomb again. Will this finally make Honeycomb not feel like it's a dumbed down netbook?
 

finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
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I have an idea... wait for the MS Courier :D

Wow.. the GPU is half of what NGP is!!!
 
Feb 19, 2001
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IMO webOS's approach to multitasking makes so much more sense than either iOS or Android. Open an app when you want to use it, scroll through your cards to switch apps, slide the card off the top to close an app when you're done with it. No widgets -- just leave a card open if you want it to update continuously.

Android's multitasking is sort of a mess, in my experience. You don't really know if an app saved its state, or whether it's still running & slowing your system down, after you exit. Occasionally I've had to use Advanced Task Killer when my phone started to chug along. Theoretically the OS is supposed to handle it, but it doesn't do a very good job.

Hopefully HP doesn't screw up the Touchpad. webOS could easily be the ultimate tablet OS.

Well that's what happens when you let an OS manage multitasking for you. You don't have full control. You can't exit. The OS determines whether your browser stays open or not. So you're right, it's a mess.

webOS is the best multitasking I've seen in a modern OS. Android's solution seems to be just throwing massive amounts of RAM at the OS. That way you can keep everything open. Because if it uses an OS managed multitasking kinda like iOS you're left in the dark about decisions.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
Well, if the XOOM is held back by its hardware, not a lot of upcoming tablets that have been announced so far has any luck. Most of them have hardwares similar to the XOOM after all.

Disregarding software issues, requiring a hardware upgrade is a big and costly thing. Not a lot of companies can afford that at this stage, where they are pushing production already.

And if we are talking about tablets that won't appear until end of 2011, they risk the chances of going up against an iPad 2 with iOS 5. I read the main concerns of the article being the notification and multitasking systems. What would happen to the conclusion should Apple be able to address those concerns?

We already have tablets coming out in a few months (Archos is coming in June with a 1.6GHz dual core at €400, Touchpad, Playbook) with faster hardware than the Xoom. Mobile technology is moving insanely fast so of course the hardware will be able to push Honeycomb.

This is why I say and even Anand has said to wait because there's still so much more coming. The Tablet game isn't over, not even close, it's just starting.
 

runawayprisoner

Platinum Member
Apr 2, 2008
2,496
0
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We already have tablets coming out in a few months (Archos is coming in June with a 1.6GHz dual core at €400, Touchpad, Playbook) with faster hardware than the Xoom. Mobile technology is moving insanely fast so of course the hardware will be able to push Honeycomb.

This is why I say and even Anand has said to wait because there's still so much more coming. The Tablet game isn't over, not even close, it's just starting.

Throwing more hardware at it just means there'll have to be something else eventually after the Touchpad and Playbook and Archos, which means the cycle just keeps up without ever stopping.

It's not about... whether something that is faster than the XOOM will come out. It's currently more about... whether something that is better than the iPad 2 will come out.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
Throwing more hardware at it just means there'll have to be something else eventually after the Touchpad and Playbook and Archos, which means the cycle just keeps up without ever stopping.

It's not about... whether something that is faster than the XOOM will come out. It's currently more about... whether something that is better than the iPad 2 will come out.

better is going to be subjective. To Apple fans nothing will be better, to Android fans there already is something better. In a few months we'll start seeing real competition and we can stop with these threads.
 

runawayprisoner

Platinum Member
Apr 2, 2008
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better is going to be subjective. To Apple fans nothing will be better, to Android fans there already is something better. In a few months we'll start seeing real competition and we can stop with these threads.

Well, in the Anandtech review, it is clear that regardless of fans or anti-fans or opinions, the reviewers don't feel the XOOM is better than the iPad 2. And that is the key.

From my personal standpoint, that will be what a lot of people will see. None of them is better than the other, but the iPad 2 is cheaper with a sleeker look, and a recognized (though controversial) brand.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
better is going to be subjective. To Apple fans nothing will be better, to Android fans there already is something better. In a few months we'll start seeing real competition and we can stop with these threads.

You're being pretty optimistic there, it'll get worse :)

Personally, I think the first tablet that's 9" or above with a stable build of HC and a functioning SD card slot with WiFi only and a price of $499 or less will be the one to beat.