So does the average chinese person know less vocabulary words than someone using an a

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olds

Elite Member
Mar 3, 2000
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Not sure, but I know at least one AT poster who doesn't know the difference between the basic English words "less" and "fewer."

Perhaps this poster spent fewer time composing his thread title than he needed. ;)
OK, 'splain this Lucy: what is a "vocabulary word"?
 

zerogear

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2000
5,611
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Oh not that I know of, I didn't get very far learning chinese but a word is just a word.

Not true, a character put together with another character makes a word. Changing the second character makes a different word.

電 = electricity
腦 = brain

電腦 = computer
電器 = electronic appliance

話 = speaking
電話 = telephone

Also, 士多碑梨 is just a onomonopia for strawberry in english since it sounds roughly the same.
 
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olds

Elite Member
Mar 3, 2000
50,071
744
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...
電話 = telephone

....
It would be easier to draw a telephone.

phone.jpg
 

eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
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Oh not that I know of, I didn't get very far learning chinese but a word is just a word.

Couldn't be farther from the truth. A single character in Chinese rarely has much meaning on its own. Phrases consisting of >=2 characters relate more directly to words in English. Usually the characters composing a phrase each contribute aspects of their individual definitions to create the meaning of the whole phrase. Like it is entirely possible to see a phrase consisting of characters that you recognize but yet be unable to identify the meaning of the phrase. This is not super common but it can happen.

Sometimes it's more complicated b/c the words in the phrase derive from say some kind of ancient expression, so the phrase has basically become an idiom. Chinese has tons and tons and tons of idioms whose meanings are rarely obvious from the composing characters.

And even amongst phrases with "clearly" defined meanings, usage can be complex. English has the same issues--like saying that someone passed away vs dying. Some expressions are impolite in certain circumstances which are usually not obvious from the definition.

Like if you pop open a Chinese dictionary, you'll see entries for various words. These are organized by the number of strokes in the radical (more below) & the number of strokes in the rest of the word. (Stroke = brush strokes used to write the word formally.) In relatively modern times, there is also a phonetic lookup table that lists all words with each phonetic spelling (Chinese has a recent phonetic alphabet: bopomofo i think is the english spelling; pinyin is based on that). But the dictionary listing for each word, you'll see a description of what the word means on its own, which most people don't read. Then you'll see a ton of common phrases starting with that word. For example:
http://www.zhongwen.com/d/169/x241.htm
And that's not even all the possible phrases with fang4. But it demonstrates the complexity. Like at the end of the list, there's fang4zhi4. Both fang4 and zhi4 could be individually translated as "to put/place." So what the hell does it mean to combine them? Why not use one word individually? How do you know when each is appropriate? (Suffice it to say zhongwen.com often doesn't have enough detail in its definitions, lol)

But it's not at all reasonable to compare 3000 characters to 30,000 words and say one person has a bigger vocabulary. For example, that 30,000 word count includes verb tenses. Chinese does not have verb tenses (instead, it uses "helper" words to signify events in relative time--like "will" or "already"). It might include plurals, which Chinese also does not have (you use like specific numbers or a helper word that basically means "group of"). It definitely includes proper nouns, which for Chinese people would just be combinations of the 3000 characters that don't really have any meaning--either a phonetic representation of a foreigner's name or a Chinese name. But you also can't count the net sum of phrases in Chinese either, b/c there are definitely tons of phrases where knowing the composing words gives you the meaning. Or things that are similar to each other so that knowing one lets you intuit the others.

Lastly, individual Chinese characters are not devoid of meaning or structure. If I recall correctly (and I am by no means a scholar on Chinese language so this is very, very rough), there are 6 classes of Chinese characters. The characters are classified according to how they are constructed. Like one class stems from simple characters that derive directly from when Chinese looked more like hieroglyphs. Another class comes from combining existing characters into a new character, and so on. I don't remember what they all are.

On top of that, every chinese character has (or is) a radical. The radical is like the "theme" for the word. Like words with the water radical mean that the rest of the word has something to do with liquid/flowing or that kind of notion. Thus while river, fountain, (to) drink, oil, etc all have different characters, they all share the same radical. The non-radical part of the word often contributes meaning as well (but sometimes it just contributes the sound), but I'm not familiar w/how this works b/c I'm a noob basically, lol. This system has some similarity to english words composed of prefix+(affix+)suffix combinations, like biology (bio=life, ology=study of). But then again, the construction of chinese phrases can often be related to that idea in English as well... like mathematics = shu3fa3. shu3=to count, fa3=method of.


Basically, both languages are complex in their own ways. Where one language is complex (verb conjugation rules), the other language might be simple (no tenses). But in trade, the "helper" words used to express tense in Chinese have usages that are rather difficult to explain (in fact people still write linguistic papers trying to identify exact rules). Like if you asked a Chinese person why, given 2 semantically equivalent expressions, only 1 of them is reasonable, you're very likely to get a response like "well the first one just sounds right." Whereas in English there are often more carefully spelled out rules: like "I runned" is wrong b/c the rule says run->ran.
 

zerogear

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2000
5,611
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It would be easier to draw a telephone.

Well, maybe for people who don't know how to write chinese. Writing those characters take me maybe a couple of seconds at most. Since most chinese speaker/writers have a quickhand for writing characters.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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等 - equal
离 - separate
子 - particle
等离子 - plasma

see the logic?
No. No I do not. If someone ever said "equal separate particle" to me, it would take me 40 years to come up with "plasma," because in my mind, that's not what plasma is. Any language is going to have its intricacies of forming new words, but "electronic brain" doesn't immediately lead me to computer any more than "flat" leads me to apartment. It's alot easier to learn intricacies within your own language, and I'd still have a hell of a time talking to someone with a thick Cockney accent. So, yes, I can appreciate that there is logic in how the Chinese put characters together, but it's not necessarily the same logic that I would use, and I don't find it any simpler than putting letters together and learning new words.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
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show us how this works. could you pronounce or learn the new word if you didn't know it already or would you have to learn it anew anyways?

Your Chinese lesson of the day

核 = nucleus
電 = electricity
廠 = production plant
核電廠 = nuclear power plant

木 = wood
木 x 3 = 森 = forest

蛇 = snake
四 = four
脚 = leg
四脚蛇 = lizard

車 = vehicle
庫 = storage
車庫 = garage

資 = resource
料 = material
庫 = storage
資料 = resources, data, information
資料庫 = database

變 = change
速 = speed
器 = device
變速器 = (vehicle) transmission

主 = master, owner, main
動 = movement
脈 = blood vessel
主動脈 = aorta

胆 = bile
囊 = bladder
胆囊 = gallbladder

免 = to remove
疫 = epidemic, plague
系 = to connect, to relate
統 = to gather, to unify
免疫 = immunity
系統 = system
免疫系統 = immune system

卵 = egg, ovum
精 = essence, vitality, sperm
巢 = nest
卵巢 = ovary
精巢 = testis

子= child
宫 = palace
子宫 = uterus

However, there are also many words that are produced for phonetic reasons

加利福尼亞州 (jia li fu ni ya zhou) = California state
 
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jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
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No. No I do not. If someone ever said "equal separate particle" to me, it would take me 40 years to come up with "plasma," because in my mind, that's not what plasma is. Any language is going to have its intricacies of forming new words, but "electronic brain" doesn't immediately lead me to computer any more than "flat" leads me to apartment. It's alot easier to learn intricacies within your own language, and I'd still have a hell of a time talking to someone with a thick Cockney accent. So, yes, I can appreciate that there is logic in how the Chinese put characters together, but it's not necessarily the same logic that I would use, and I don't find it any simpler than putting letters together and learning new words.

Let's assume that the word "plasma" doesn't exist. What then would you call the concept of a plasma?

Also, if the word "plasma" is written, can you tell at a glance what the meaning is? Is it the 4th state of matter (等離子體) or blood plasma (血漿)?
 
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dighn

Lifer
Aug 12, 2001
22,820
4
81
No. No I do not. If someone ever said "equal separate particle" to me, it would take me 40 years to come up with "plasma," because in my mind, that's not what plasma is. Any language is going to have its intricacies of forming new words, but "electronic brain" doesn't immediately lead me to computer any more than "flat" leads me to apartment. It's alot easier to learn intricacies within your own language, and I'd still have a hell of a time talking to someone with a thick Cockney accent. So, yes, I can appreciate that there is logic in how the Chinese put characters together, but it's not necessarily the same logic that I would use, and I don't find it any simpler than putting letters together and learning new words.

I did not mean to say you could deduce yourself that "equal separated particles" is plasma, however it does serve as a useful mnemonic for memorizing the word. also it was never my intention to imply that chinese words are easier to memorize then english words, but rather to dispute the OP's claim that chinese words are inherently more difficult to memorize. I can't actually decide which is easier to memorize for myself, though I do appreciate english words that also have this kind of structure to them e.g. biology, thermonuclear etc.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
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Your one bastardized example is just that, a bastardized example. It does not mean the distinction between "less" and "fewer" is obsolete, no matter how much you may wish it to.

It most certainly doesn't mean there's fewer need for the distinction, or less instances of ear-grinding grammatical ignorance to be challenged. ;)

That said, I wish to thank all the other posters here for teaching me some basics about the Chinese language. It's been a fascinating introduction. Thanks! :thumbsup:

Well such grammar rules do change in time, if you look at the history of language that is the way it works, whats right is what people use. 10 items or less is everywhere, because it sounds right, and everyone knows what it means;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less

Rules weren't always so, because much of the time they are arbitrary.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Not true, a character put together with another character makes a word. Changing the second character makes a different word.

電 = electricity
腦 = brain

電腦 = computer
電器 = electronic appliance

話 = speaking
電話 = telephone

Also, 士多碑梨 is just a onomonopia for strawberry in english since it sounds roughly the same.

Yes and no, because I do understand spoken chinese, I know these do not actually make a new word, but a combination. In other words electricity+ brain does not equal computer, aka a new word, it is literally you saying electricity computer together or the equivalent of us calling it an electric brain.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
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Yes and no, because I do understand spoken chinese, I know these do not actually make a new word, but a combination. In other words electricity+ brain does not equal computer, aka a new word, it is literally you saying electricity computer together or the equivalent of us calling it an electric brain.

Actually it is a new word because Chinese characters can be used singly as a word, or in multiples as syllables to a new word just as in English "pineapple" is a new word with a separate meaning from its constituent words "pine" and "apple".
 

zerogear

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2000
5,611
9
81
Let's assume that the word "plasma" doesn't exist. What then would you call the concept of a plasma?

Also, if the word "plasma" is written, can you tell at a glance what the meaning is? Is it the 4th state of matter (等離子體) or blood plasma (血漿)?

Depending on Taiwan/HK/China, they call Plasma (electronics) by different names.

Personally, I think TW name makes more sense: 電漿 [electronic plasma]

Basically the same as the person above said.
HK: 等離子體
CH: 等离子体
 

zerogear

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2000
5,611
9
81
Yes and no, because I do understand spoken chinese, I know these do not actually make a new word, but a combination. In other words electricity+ brain does not equal computer, aka a new word, it is literally you saying electricity computer together or the equivalent of us calling it an electric brain.

I don't call a single chinese character a word. Because that's what it is; a character; when you combine them. It forms a word.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
I don't call a single chinese character a word. Because that's what it is; a character; when you combine them. It forms a word.

That's not quite right either. All of the individual characters can be used singly as stand alone words. So they are both characters and words based on context.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
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Chinese Characters mean different things if you combine different characters together.
The symbol for a tree if combined with a second symbol for tree means forest.

Chinese characters can be somewhat complex and can mean different things when used different ways. Chinese was the imperial language of Asia. It was often used in other countries like Okje and Korea. Teaching Chinese usually would start with a beginners guide of 1000 characters. It is like mathematics where you learn the the building blocks and then combine them for complex meaning.
 
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