So, anyone want to try and explain this airline pricing for me?

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,667
6,551
126
this morning i booked my flight to europe. we are going to france and spain so we had a choice of where we could book our flights to. here are some prices that i came across today.

DCA -> JFK -> BCN = $527 (delta)
IAD -> CDG = $1500+ (united)
IAD -> MAD = $1500+ (united)
BWI -> ATL -> BCN = $1200 (delta + air france)
IAD -> CDG -> BCN = $700 (delta operated under air france)

since the layover in NYC was like 3.5 hours, curiosity got the best of me so i decided to just check how much the flight from JFK -> BCN would be.

JFK -> BCN = $1500+ (delta)

i ended up booking the first one, but the JFK -> BCN leg that we're flying on is literally the same exact flight that was $1500+ for just that flight alone. i simply don't get it.

there were some other air france flights that were cheap going to paris directly, but i googled them since i've never used them and they were on strike last week and things seem to be back to normal but i didn't want to bother with that stuff just in case.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,908
4,940
136
Probably some nutty algorithm designed and conceived to squeeze more profit out of consumers despite all conventional logic.
 

CraKaJaX

Lifer
Dec 26, 2004
11,905
148
101
What was that website that gave you flights where you would book say, JFK -> LAX with a layover in SLC but then just stay in SLC as your final destination? The flights were cheaper because of the major route. I remember reading about this not too long ago..
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
1,998
126
In one of the H2G2 books, Douglas Adams described the strange principles of math that took place in restaurants and were far more complex and convoluted than the ordinary laws of mathematics that worked everyplace else:

"The Bistromathic Drive is a wonderful new method of crossing vast interstellar distances without all the dangerous mucking about with Improbability Factors. Bistromathics itself is simply a revolutionary new way of understanding the behaviour of numbers. Just as Einstein observed that time was not an absolute but depended on the observer's movement in space, and that space was not an absolute, but depended on the observer's movement in time, it is now realised that numbers are not absolute, but depended on the observer's movement in restaurants.

The first non-absolute number is the number of people for whom the table is reserved. This will vary during the course of the first three telephone calls to the restaurant, and then bear no apparent relation to the number of people who actually turn up, or to the number of people who subsequently join them after the show/match/party/gig, or to the number of people who leave when they see who else has turned up. The second non-absolute number is the given time of arrival, which is now known to be one of those most bizarre of the mathematical concepts, a recipriversexcluson, a number whose existence can only be defined as being anything, other than itself. In other words, the given time of arrival is the one moment of time at which it is impossible that any member of the party will arrive.

Recipriversexclusons now play a vital part in many branches of math, including statistics and accountancy and also form the basic equations used to engineer the Somebody Else's Problem field. The third and most mysterious piece of non-absoluteness of all lies in the relationship between the number of items on the check, the cost of each item, the number of people at the table and what they are each prepared to pay for. (The number of people who actually brought any money is only a sub-phenomenon in this field.) The baffling discrepancies that used to occur at this point remained uninvestigated for centuries simply because no one took them seriously. They were at the time put down to such things as politeness, rudeness, meanness, flashiness, tiredness, emotionality or the lateness of the hour, and completely forgotten about on the following morning. They were never tested under laboratory conditions, of course, because they never occurred in laboratories - not in reputable laboratories at least.

And so it was only with the advent of pocket computers that the startling truth became finally apparent, and it was this: Numbers written on restaurant checks within the confines of restaurants do not follow the same mathematical laws as numbers written on any other pieces of paper in any other parts of the Universe. This single statement took the scientific world by storm. It completely revolutionised it. So many mathematical conferences got held in such good restaurants that many of the finest minds of a generation died of obesity and heart failure and the science of math was put back by years. Slowly, however, the implications of the idea began to be understood. To begin with it had been too stark, too crazy, too much like what the man in the street would have said "Oh, yes, I could have told you that." Then some phrases like "Interactive Subjectivity Frameworks" were invented, and everybody was able to relax and get on with it.

The small groups of monks who had taken up hanging around the major research institutes singing strange chants to the effect that the Universe was only a figment of its own imagination were eventually given a street theatre grant and went away."


Airline math is at least 1000 times more incomprehensible than Bistro math.
 

Garet Jax

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2000
6,369
0
71
this morning i booked my flight to europe. we are going to france and spain so we had a choice of where we could book our flights to. here are some prices that i came across today.

DCA -> JFK -> BCN = $527 (delta)
IAD -> CDG = $1500+ (united)
IAD -> MAD = $1500+ (united)
BWI -> ATL -> BCN = $1200 (delta + air france)
IAD -> CDG -> BCN = $700 (delta operated under air france)

since the layover in NYC was like 3.5 hours, curiosity got the best of me so i decided to just check how much the flight from JFK -> BCN would be.

JFK -> BCN = $1500+ (delta)

i ended up booking the first one, but the JFK -> BCN leg that we're flying on is literally the same exact flight that was $1500+ for just that flight alone. i simply don't get it.

there were some other air france flights that were cheap going to paris directly, but i googled them since i've never used them and they were on strike last week and things seem to be back to normal but i didn't want to bother with that stuff just in case.

Convenience. You are paying a lot more for a direct flight.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
I've noted this same pricing strategy and it never makes sense to me.

Maybe there is some contractual number of seats they need to fill on their regional airline partners that causes them to discount flights that involve regional partner flights to meet that minimum.

Would love to hear other theories (or actual insider knowledge).
 

Garet Jax

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2000
6,369
0
71
DCA -> JFK -> BCN = $527 (delta)
JFK -> BCN = $1500+ (delta)

i don't think you quite followed my post.

I think I did. To go from DCA -> JFK -> BCN is cheaper than going from JFK -> BCN and that is because JFK -> BCN is a direct flight where DCA through JFK to BCN isn't direct. You have a stop over in JFK.

I am telling you it is because it is a direct flight. The airline knows people will pay more for a direct flight than one that has a stop or layover.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,130
4,787
126
I am telling you it is because it is a direct flight. The airline knows people will pay more for a direct flight than one that has a stop or layover.
Exactly.

The price they charge is the sum of all individual prices PLUS convenience prices (plus other factors like the day of the week, how many times you have searched on that computer, number of remaining seats, etc).



Suppose these are the true prices (all just hypothetical):
  • A to B: $500
  • B to C: $300
  • A directly to C: $600
  • Convenience fee for a single flight: $250
Then what they would charge you to fly from A to C would be $500 + $300 = $800 if you take the layover option or $600 + $250 = $850 if you take the direct flight. If you forget the convenience fee, any math you apply will be wrong.
 

RossMAN

Grand Nagus
Feb 24, 2000
79,056
446
136
It's probably too late but Amex Offers has Delta $200 statement credit on $1,000+ purchases.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Probably some nutty algorithm designed and conceived to squeeze more profit out of consumers despite all conventional logic.

Airlines live by revenue earned per seat mile. And empty seat is not earning revenue so they probably have some whacked out algorithms to get the most seats occupied.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
Exactly.

The price they charge is the sum of all individual prices PLUS convenience prices (plus other factors like the day of the week, how many times you have searched on that computer, number of remaining seats, etc).



Suppose these are the true prices (all just hypothetical):
  • A to B: $500
  • B to C: $300
  • A directly to C: $600
  • Convenience fee for a single flight: $250
Then what they would charge you to fly from A to C would be $500 + $300 = $800 if you take the layover option or $600 + $250 = $850 if you take the direct flight. If you forget the convenience fee, any math you apply will be wrong.


But in the case of the OP...the convenience fee would then be nearly 1k...that seems absurd and not financially beneficial for the airline.

Also, your example is not really the same as the OP mentioned. You are comparing a direct/layover flights to/from the same locations. He is comparing a layover flight that originates at a different location with a direct flight (from the layover location). The same flight exists in both tickets...just one includes an additional flight (most likely by a regional carrier)...and is somehow 1/3 the price.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,585
3,796
126
Convenience. You are paying a lot more for a direct flight.


There's probably more to it than it being a direct flight - esp with Delta. Delta likes to play a lot of games to get people to go through certain areas (see: Seattle). Lots of cases where Delta's direct flights are cheaper as well like most of the nostop DTW, ORD, MSP - Europe flights.

In this case and given the abnormally low price I am guessing its more likely a sale to increase passengers at DCA, a response to a competitors sale out of DCA or in retaliation for someone else's sale at a major Delta hub. The last option of deliberate competitor hub targeting has been happening quite a bit lately.

Edit: Come to think of it its probably in response to some of United's sales lately. I have a $450 flight through DCA to Vienna coming up in December that I booked two weeks ago and I had just missed a sale to somewhere else in Europe on United a few days prior that I am pretty sure connected in DCA
 
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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,130
4,787
126
But in the case of the OP...the convenience fee would then be nearly 1k...that seems absurd and not financially beneficial for the airline.
He is talking about a direct international flight bought just a few days before leaving. You are talking about a common business traveler type of purchase--someone who is a lot less likely to be price sensitive. Why do you think that $1000 is absurd in that case?

And my example is just fine (other than I didn't try to exactly match his prices). The B -> C price can often be more than the A -> B -> C price depending on the convenience surcharge.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,585
3,796
126
He is talking about a direct international flight bought just a few days before leaving. You are talking about a common business traveler type of purchase--someone who is a lot less likely to be price sensitive.

After a spot check of prices for the other flights it looks like the prices extend(ed?) out through March so that may not be as relevant for this particular fare

http://www.airfarewatchdog.com/cheap-flights/washington-dc-dca-to-barcelona-spain-bcn/?fare_id=13918221
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,667
6,551
126
I think I did. To go from DCA -> JFK -> BCN is cheaper than going from JFK -> BCN and that is because JFK -> BCN is a direct flight where DCA through JFK to BCN isn't direct. You have a stop over in JFK.

I am telling you it is because it is a direct flight. The airline knows people will pay more for a direct flight than one that has a stop or layover.

this still doesn't make sense to me.

DCA is about a 5 hour drive to JFK, maybe more depending on traffic. so 99% of people who have DCA as an option aren't going to be driving 5 hours to spend $1k more on a direct flight.

in my personal experience, direct flights are typically cheaper too, unless it's one of those weird ass routes with a shit ton of layovers. but like when i fly to the carribean and we have a layover in florida somewhere, the only reason i take those flights is because they are the only ones available. typically the direct flights are around the same price, but if they are more expensive, they are more expensive by like $100 max. not $1k.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
in this case it would be cheaper to drive from JFK to DCA to fly to France vs fly directly from JFK

that is what doesn't make any sense
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,667
6,551
126
in this case it would be cheaper to drive from JFK to DCA to fly to France vs fly directly from JFK

that is what doesn't make any sense

lol yeah. if you lived in NYC and have 8-10 hours to spare and wanted to save $2k (for 2 flights) then it would be worth it to do the drive.