Sneak Peak of Tegra 4 (Codename Wayne)

[cmdrdredd]

There're certainly more efforts than ever before to get more compelling games on mobile platforms, but it's still going to take a while. The customer base generally isn't willing to pay $20 for games when they're surrounded by $.99 ones. Even if they compromise at $10 or $5, they can't spend all that much money developing the title before the sales numbers need to become insane to justify the cost of developing the game.

I'd be really interested to know how many copies of BG:EE were sold on iOS and how many they sell on Android when that version ships. I have a feeling that the market is smaller than we think.

If they market it as a gaming device with titles available on day one that make people think that the vita looks like crap, and don't try to sell it as an "android device without a phone" they could have a winner. You know what I mean?

That's more what I was hinting at. The fact that it runs android doesn't matter. It has the horsepower to make games really pop but the support needs to be there along with proper marketing.

I think they need to differentiate this device from Android in general. Don't let people compare it to the Galaxy S3 and HTC OneX etc. Don't let people say "oh this is just another angry birds device". It's my opinion that if they advertise it as an "android Jelly Bean device with a controller" it will fail. However with the right support from developers on day one and marketing like "a portable gaming device with touchscreen and graphics that blow away the competition" it might get somewhere. Especially if they show off 1080p gaming on a big screen using this thing and the games are graphically appealing.

The only reason I could see to leave the screen on would be if nVidia takes a page out of Nintendo's book, and offers the ability to present different visuals on each screen. However, that sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Why? The dreamcast VMU did this already. Sony could do this with the Vita before the WiiU released (they have not yet that I know of).

Play PC games on my TV without having to run a stupidly long HDMI cable.

For me this wouldn't be remotely worth it when my monitor is 2560x1440 and my TV is only 1080p.

I suppose I can see what you mean if you had 1080p either way.

 

[thunng8]

Anand offers commentary about the state of the GPUs, he doesn't call it a win for Tegra 3 nothing that the iPad had better performance, but inferior visuals(clearly indicating that the Tegra 3 was doing more work). Hopefully Futuremark will have their bench out by the time Wayne ships so we can get some real GPU benches for once.

The games chosen for the comparison were not optimised for Apple's faster hardware. When they were updated, the article was not updated. They were optimized for the the Tegra3.

If you look at the change logs for the 2 games chosen, Shadowgun got an ipad3 optimised version about 1 month after the review and Riptide got an A5 optimised version just after the review was done.

As for current games, I've compared an ipad mini with an Nexus 7 in Need for speed most wanted and Dead trigger and while graphics were comparable in quality, the ipad mini played both games (especially need for speed) at a higher frame rate.

 

[nycdude]

Despite the Shield being a cool concept, I have a feeling nVidia will drop the ball and over price it past the the portable consoles like the 3ds XL or the Sony Vita.

They say they are not taking a loss for it which makes you think it will be not be cheap.

 

[BenSkywalker]

..

 

[dagamer34]

Given what it is, pricing it beyond the Vita or 3DS only makes sense, even if they were planning on taking a loss on it, it is still far beyond the hardware of the other two. That said, if they price it too high, they will kill its' potential market. I'm thinking no chance of anything under $299, beyond that I'm not sure.

It's essentially a smartphone with a controller built-in. $349-399 (and that's being generous).

 

[Mopetar]

If they market it as a gaming device with titles available on day one that make people think that the vita looks like crap, and don't try to sell it as an "android device without a phone" they could have a winner. You know what I mean?

Then run into a nice little chicken and egg problem though. Developers won't want to spend time on it unless they know they can move a lot of extra software. I don't think this does anything to grow the overall customer base either, so at best if they port a game to this, it's just taking away from their sales on another platform.

Also, given that nVidia isn't going to subsidize the hardware, it creates an even bigger issue in that the sales for the device will be low, meaning that there won't be as big of a customer base, so a lot less to be gained from targeting the platform. With Nintendo and Sony you know that there's at least an established fan base that will probably buy the hardware and both companies have first party games coming out and enough skin in the game that they'll push for this to succeed. nVidia certain has a fan base, but it's for their graphics cards, not gaming hardware. There's no indication that a lot of that base will want to buy this.

So if the initial sales are less than stellar, developer support will dry up fast. No one will want to spend the time or money to make a true AAA exclusive. Without any really compelling reason to buy the hardware, most people will just skip it, continuing the vicious circle.

One area where I think they might actually do quite well is with indie developers, the guys who are traditionally overlooked or outright passed over by Nintendo and Sony. However, the kind of games that indie developers make aren't going to be maxing out the potential of the system and will likely also have iOS, Android, and other versions.

Also, depending on how much lead time developers have had to work on projects before the public announcement, there might not be a lot there on launch day. Look at how bleak most console launches are. It can take over a year to build up a decent catalog of games that make owning a console worthwhile.

Also, nVidia doesn't desperately need for this to succeed. This is just a side venture for them, so I don't know how far they're willing to go to get this to succeed. Also, entering the space like this risks alienating some of their other partners. Are Sony or Nintendo likely to want to do business with a direct competitor in the future? In some ways, it might be better for them if this fails and they get their SoC to be picked up by Sony or Nintendo for their next handheld or for their next consoles to use nVidia GPUs.

 

[dagamer34]

Then run into a nice little chicken and egg problem though. Developers won't want to spend time on it unless they know they can move a lot of extra software. I don't think this does anything to grow the overall customer base either, so at best if they port a game to this, it's just taking away from their sales on another platform.

Also, given that nVidia isn't going to subsidize the hardware, it creates an even bigger issue in that the sales for the device will be low, meaning that there won't be as big of a customer base, so a lot less to be gained from targeting the platform. With Nintendo and Sony you know that there's at least an established fan base that will probably buy the hardware and both companies have first party games coming out and enough skin in the game that they'll push for this to succeed. nVidia certain has a fan base, but it's for their graphics cards, not gaming hardware. There's no indication that a lot of that base will want to buy this.

So if the initial sales are less than stellar, developer support will dry up fast. No one will want to spend the time or money to make a true AAA exclusive. Without any really compelling reason to buy the hardware, most people will just skip it, continuing the vicious circle.

One area where I think they might actually do quite well is with indie developers, the guys who are traditionally overlooked or outright passed over by Nintendo and Sony. However, the kind of games that indie developers make aren't going to be maxing out the potential of the system and will likely also have iOS, Android, and other versions.

Also, depending on how much lead time developers have had to work on projects before the public announcement, there might not be a lot there on launch day. Look at how bleak most console launches are. It can take over a year to build up a decent catalog of games that make owning a console worthwhile.

Also, nVidia doesn't desperately need for this to succeed. This is just a side venture for them, so I don't know how far they're willing to go to get this to succeed. Also, entering the space like this risks alienating some of their other partners. Are Sony or Nintendo likely to want to do business with a direct competitor in the future? In some ways, it might be better for them if this fails and they get their SoC to be picked up by Sony or Nintendo for their next handheld or for their next consoles to use nVidia GPUs.

Keep in mind the difference between the Project SHIELD and a normal console is that developers don't have to do a bunch of extra work to target the handheld that they weren't already going to have to do to release an Android game on Google Play. Developers just need to create a few Tegra 4 optimizations and controller support, which many would have done already anyway. Plus, there will be plenty of Tegra 4 hardware including smartphones and tablets.

 

[s44]

Keep in mind the difference between the Project SHIELD and a normal console is that developers don't have to do a bunch of extra work to target the handheld that they weren't already going to have to do to release an Android game on Google Play. Developers just need to create a few Tegra 4 optimizations and controller support, which many would have done already anyway.

Yup. This is basically the hardware incarnation of the Tegra Zone.

 

[BenSkywalker]

..

 

[grkM3]

The gpu in the tegra 4 is a fail,it only supports direct x9 and does not support open cl.

Here is a nice read on it

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...cs-disappoint2c-nvidia-in-defensive-mode.aspx


According to the company, these are the key features on a Tegra 4:

• GeForce [COLOR=#000064 !important][COLOR=#000064 !important]GPU[/COLOR][/COLOR] with 72 custom cores
• Quad-core ARM Cortex-A15 CPU, plus a 2nd Generation Battery Saver Core
• Computational Photography Architecture
• LTE capability with optional Icera i500 [COLOR=#000064 !important][COLOR=#000064 !important]chipset[/COLOR][/COLOR]
• 4K ultra-high-def video support

The Tegra 4 "Wayne" chip seems to be "Tegra 3 on Stereoids", with the 4-plus-1 CPU concept now upgraded from five Cortex-A9 to five Cortex-A15 cores, graphics subsystem beefed from 12 to 72 GPU cores etc. All of this is paired with an 8-core i500 Soft Radio chip (SDR), which supports all the modern radio bands (4G LTE on both data and voice) the company needed to compete for superphone, phablet and tablet design wins. The company takes a lot of pride in the fat that the i500 die size is around 40% the size of competing modems from [COLOR=#000064 !important][COLOR=#000064 !important]Intel[/COLOR][/COLOR] (ex-Infineon), Qualcomm, Broadcom and the like.

Furthermore, one of most important aspects is the reduced power consumption. By moving from 40nm (Kal-El, Tegra 3) to 28nm process (Wayne), Nvidia reduced power consumption by as much as 45%, while achieving significant performance improvements.

However, after all is said and done, Tegra 4 might have an Achilee's heel in the making. While the company representatives often stated that Tegra 3 competitiveness was stifled by the lack of 4G LTE supporting hardware (HTC One X+ 4G LTE smartphone combines Tegra 3 and Intel/ex-Infineon baseband chip), Tegra 4 might be suffering from another issue: lack of API support. Back in 2010, when Nvidia disclosed its roadmap for the future, it was stated that the desktop architectures will move inside Tegra as well, and that future parts such as Wayne (T40, Tegra 4) and Logan ("Wolverine", T50, Tegra 5) will offer computational capabilities.

We asked Nvidia what APIs (Application Programming Interface) are supported, since their competition from Qualcomm (Adreno 300 Series), ARM (Mali-T600) now supports DirectX 11.0, OpenCL, latest OpenGL, latest OpenGL ES etc. The response we got from Nvidia's Tegra 4 team was underwhelming:


"Kepler isn't in Tegra 4, but Tegra 4's GPU leverages multiple GeForce architectures and elements - including Kepler and others."


"Tegra 4 uses our most advanced mobile GPU ever. It adds amazing features like true HDR rendering and supports ultra-efficient computation, like what is done for the computational photography architecture and the first "Always On" HDR camera. It is our fifth generation mobile GPU and 6x the power of Tegra 3's GPU - a major leap in capability (for reference Tegra 3 was 1.5x the horsepower compared to Tegra 2)."

In order to understand this answer, you have to understand that original GeForce ULP used on Tegra 2 and Tegra 3 was based on the NV4X architecture (GeForce 6/7 Series), launched in 2004. This is the GPU architecture that powers all PlayStation 3 consoles (RSX is a 2005 GeForce 7800 GTX "NV47" chip with a 128-bit memory controller and continuously updated manufacturing process).


"Tegra 4 has 6x the number of GPU shader cores in Tegra 3 (72 vs. 12), and includes various cache and pipeline optimizations. In actual game testing -- with other factors at play, such as game code efficiencies, driver stacks, CPU processing, memory subsystem operations - users should see about 3x - 4x delivered performance improvements for graphics-based benchmarks."

While it is great to see HDR capabilities going from specialized hardware such as RED Epic and Scarlet cameras to commodity hardware such as Tegra 4 (naturally, capabilities widely differ, but the concept is the same), the troublesome part was lack of any color on API support, as it is obvious that Always On HDR was an Nvidia feature and not exactly exposed to 3rd party developers. The last part of answer brought an answer to our question:



"Today's mobile apps do not take advantage of OCL (OpenCL), [COLOR=#000064 !important][COLOR=#000064 !important]CUDA[/COLOR][/COLOR] or Advanced OGL (OpenGL), nor are these APIs exposed in any OS. Tegra 4's GPU is very powerful and dedicates its resources toward improving real end user experiences."

To put this answer in perspective, Nvidia - a company almost always known for innovation in the desktop and mobile computing space - does not consider that API's such as OpenCL and its own CUDA are important for ultra-efficient computing. This attitude already resulted in a substantial design win turn sour, as the company was thrown out of BMW Group, a year and a few quarters after it triumphantly pushed Intel out of BMW's structure.

While the company is embedded with the Volkswagen AG group and will probably end up shipping Tegras in each of the VAG brands (Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Ducati, Seat, Skoda, Volkswagen), it was Freescale than won the new-new BMW deal for next-gen hardware because of one small thing - Vivante's GPU featureset.

Vivante is not a new player in the field, but the low profile firm has a GPU which supports OpenCL, which was listed on BMW's corporate "RFQ" (Request For Quote). According to our contacts close to heart of the matter, OpenCL was the reason why Nvidia "is out".

Witnessing that the company does not believe in CUDA (currently), does not believe in OpenCL (currently) and furthermore, has an issue with believing in success of Windows RT / Windows 8 as it does not support DirectX higher than 9. This will probably end up being painfully exposed through next-generation cross-platform benchmarks from Futuremark (next-gen 3DMark is cross-platform: WinRT/8, Android, iOS) and Rightware (Basemark X), all coming out in the upcoming weeks.

Will the company change the tune with Logan (T50, Tegra 5) or Stark (T60, Tegra 6), future chips based on Project Denver, a custom 64-bit ARM core in which the company invested lot of resources (and credibility) and a Maxwell GPU core, or are we going to see "a backup version" with 64-bit Cortex-A57 and 1xx-core GPU based on combination of architectures? Only time will tell.

Too bad for Nvidia, as Tegra 4 could have been a 1-2-3 punch for its competitors, tired of Qualcomm's inability to deliver functional Windows RT drivers (just ask HP and others how they feel about their Qualcomm-based RT tablets and the R&D money blown on getting that hardware/software to work). Furthermore, Intel failed to make their 2012 target in terms of smartphone [COLOR=#000064 !important][COLOR=#000064 !important]Atom[/COLOR][/COLOR] units shipped as Google-owned Motorola, the only Tier 1 that adopted the design - dropped off the Top 10 smartphone vendors ranking.

From the looks of it, Tegra 4 looks to be a great design product for Google Android smartphones and tablets. Windows RT and automotive/embedded markets on the other hand... obviously the company will have to limit damage there. The "sweet-pill" is codenamed Gray, a Tegra 3 with integrated baseband (think of the part as a general trial run before T50 integrates LTE/SDR on a single die). Will that be enough, time will tell.

 

[Mopetar]

Keep in mind the difference between the Project SHIELD and a normal console is that developers don't have to do a bunch of extra work to target the handheld that they weren't already going to have to do to release an Android game on Google Play. Developers just need to create a few Tegra 4 optimizations and controller support, which many would have done already anyway. Plus, there will be plenty of Tegra 4 hardware including smartphones and tablets.

The game market on Android (and for that matter iOS) seriously pales in comparison with the competition from handhelds. There's nothing being sold currently in the Play store that could compel anyone to drop several hundred dollars on Shield.

Furthermore, why even bother if I can just get the game from the Play store and run it on my phone?

Shield isn't even that portable either. It's not something I can easily carry around with me like a DS or PSP, which I can toss in a pocket. The shield looks too thick to fit comfortably.

 

[Red Storm]

The game market on Android (and for that matter iOS) seriously pales in comparison with the competition from handhelds. There's nothing being sold currently in the Play store that could compel anyone to drop several hundred dollars on Shield.

Furthermore, why even bother if I can just get the game from the Play store and run it on my phone?

Shield isn't even that portable either. It's not something I can easily carry around with me like a DS or PSP, which I can toss in a pocket. The shield looks too thick to fit comfortably.

I would buy it strictly for the PC gaming streaming. I don't even think about the Android aspect.

 

[Mopetar]

The gpu in the tegra 4 is a fail,it only supports direct x9 and does not support open cl.

Here is a nice read on it

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...cs-disappoint2c-nvidia-in-defensive-mode.aspx

Seems like a lot of doom and gloom and it's overly critical. Is BMW really that important? Or OpenCL/CUDA? Also, does Android even use DirectX? I wouldn't think so, so does it really matter if it doesn't have the latest version?

 

[WelshBloke]

I would buy it strictly for the PC gaming streaming. I don't even think about the Android aspect.

Is your laptops GPU compatible?

 

[Red Storm]

GTX 675M, which is a rebadge I believe so not sure. I'm not going to buy Shield the day it comes out, I was just saying that the PC game streaming is far and away the most interesting feature about it, and that I don't care about the Android side.

 

[WelshBloke]

GTX 675M, which is a rebadge I believe so not sure. I'm not going to buy Shield the day it comes out, I was just saying that the PC game streaming is far and away the most interesting feature about it, and that I don't care about the Android side.

Yeah its interesting in a niche way. As you need a decent PC, a beefy GPU, a compatible TV and to buy the handheld as well I cant see it getting great adoption. And cant you already stream your video output from a PC to a TV anyway?

I just dont see where the Shield fits.

As a stand alone handheld its got to compete with Nintendo and Sony and I cant see it stealing any market there.

As a casual android gaming device I cant see it winning as everyone who would get this likely already has a smartphone.

It seems to complicated and has too many requirements for just streaming games to the PC.

And as for playing PC games on a handheld... well put it like this I've never heard anyone say whilst playing Half-life "Hmmmm, I really wish my screen was 5 inches and I was using a controller for this.".

 

[Mopetar]

I would buy it strictly for the PC gaming streaming. I don't even think about the Android aspect.

Why?

I can understand wanting to play on your TV because it's a bigger panel, but you'd have to give up using multiple monitors, displays bigger than 1920x1080, and using the keyboard and mouse. While not everyone is running a multi-monitor setup, or has a really nice display that has more pixels, I can't understand why you'd want to use a controller over a keyboard/mouse.

There are a lot of games that would be straight up unplayable with a controller, and very few that might be anywhere as good. Never mind any other problems that might occur such as increased latency. You also give up the convenience of having a PC right there and all that brings. For example, what if I'm playing with friends and want to talk to them on Mumble? Can Shield support that?

I don't think the cost is worth the novelty of playing PC games from my couch, when I could already do that by hooking up my PC to my TV. And I could even plug in a USB controller if for whatever reason I don't want to use a keyboard/mouse.

 

[Dari]

Nvidia's business model for this doesn't make sense. People will only make good software for this if it's in as many hands as possible. But it needs to be priced aggressively for that to happen. However, they don't want to lose money on it. Worse, they won't get any licensing fee if anyone decides to make an Android game that happens to work great with this device. Worse, Nvidia's competitors will come out with new SoCs later on this year and next year and support for this device will die.

 

[grkM3]

Seems like a lot of doom and gloom and it's overly critical. Is BMW really that important? Or OpenCL/CUDA? Also, does Android even use DirectX? I wouldn't think so, so does it really matter if it doesn't have the latest version?

what dev wants to make a game for the new tegra handheld when they cant use newer standards.

This is NVidia after all and they are known for gaming but its cool if you want a gpu with 72 cores that runs direct x9

and this gpu still dosnt support open gl that competes with direct x also so you are missing 2 standards that devs cant use

 

[Mopetar]

what dev wants to make a game for the new tegra handheld when they cant use newer standards.

This is NVidia after all and they are known for gaming but its cool if you want a gpu with 72 cores that runs direct x9

It's going to be used to run Android, which as far as I'm aware doesn't use DirectX at all.

and this gpu still dosnt support open gl that competes with direct x also so you are missing 2 standards that devs cant use

Do you mean OpenCL, because I'm pretty sure it has OpenGL support. Also, I'm not aware of many game developers using OpenCL, nor am I really sure what they'd be using it for.

So basically, they left out a lot of things that aren't going to be all that useful for them or their customers. Not that big of a deal.

 

[gus6464]

Doesn't the Mali T-604 in Exynos 5 support a lot more than the GPU in the Tegra4?

 

[BenSkywalker]

..

 

[Mopetar]

Multi monitors I can give you- the Shield's first demo on a TV was on a 4K display- 3840x2160, that's four times the pixels of 1080p. I have a keyboard and mouse I can use with Shield already, not sure what exactly you mean by that. Bluetooth is supported.

According to AT all of the games during the shield demo were 720p except for one. So even if you have a 4k TV, you're not going to get that level of image quality, even if your GPU could do it.

The keyboard and mouse support (along with some of the other issues I've addressed) is nice, but it's still pointless. Seems like paying a lot of money for little actual benefit. Would be a lot cheaper to buy a set of long cables.

 

[BenSkywalker]

..

 

[Mopetar]

They pushed a 4K video to the TV direct from the device, so any resolution limitations I assume are on the settings they were using on the PC.

I'll have to look into this more.

Would be cheaper to use a dumb phone without data too. Doesn't mean there is a chance in hell that I'm going to actually do that

Kind of a bad analogy. The dumb phone obviously can't do everything the smart phone can. Hooking up your PC to your TV with a cable rather than using Shield and using a USB controller accomplishes about the same result.

Either way, when it comes out and you get one, let us know how it turns out.