So in your whole life you never went to a school dance and slipped out and had a snort or two? Were you a virgin when you got married too?
:laugh:
I don't think their irrelevant at all. The point is that attempts like this to make growing up mistake free are based on this stupid idea people seem to develop as they get older that mistakes you make as a kid are the absolute end of the world. Never mind that most adults have made their fair share of mistakes getting to where they are, and maybe even learned something from them, there is this feeling that we're doing a good service for kids by blowing little mistakes totally out of proportion. We made it through ok, yet we're convinced that our kids won't unless we act like a bunch of paranoid lunatics.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
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I completely agree with you in all things other than criminal activities. Anything that can assist in limiting our childrens' expsoure to criminal behavior IS a good thing. Being responsible for your mistakes, and accountable, are key to teaching you right from wrong. And a child who pops positive on a drug test, preventing him from playing footbal, thus letting his teammates and friends down, IS a powerful lesson in right v. wrong.
I suppose it all depends on how positives are dealt with...my experience has been that people will NOT deal with a positive in a reasonable way (say, banning a student from playing football for a month and/or until he tests negative on a test) and will instead turn into some sort of black-listing witchhunt with students getting expelled and other such freaking out. Don't get me wrong, I think there SHOULD be consequences for drug use among kids, but my experience has been that the consequences are frequently not proportional to the offense, and I'm reluctant to support a policy that makes drug testing virtually mandatory.
Edit: This isn't just a school thing either, the VAST majority of the negative effects of mild drug use seem to come from artificially severe punishments from schools and the legal system, I'd have a lot more support for anti-drug policies in general if they weren't written and enforced by people who have seen "Reefer Madness" a few too many times.
Neither, just 3 weeks ago I pee'ed in a bottle for a job I'm applying for and passed with flying colors.
Of course when I was young and free.... ahh those were the days my friend.
I had the world by the ass and I knew it!! Then you fall in love, get married and have kids and everything changes.Anyway, the point is that your a hypocrit if you believe the kids should do as you say and not as you did. They should have the same freedom to make mistakes as you did.
How else do they learn?
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
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I thought my use or "is" instead of "are" might cause confusion, but not "whose". Obviously not "yours" since it's irrelevant, I'd guess it's those who are being forced to take drug tests and if they fail their lives could carry a mark that yours doesn't.
Thank God they aren't taking away their guns, I suppose.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
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If they fail, then they pay the price. They should know that going in. I do believe that random drug tests among teenagers would be a very effective deterant. I know way too many friends from HS whose lives were ruined by drugs for me to resist reasonable methods of control.
Rainsford does have a good point, however, the punishments for testing positive need to be well thought out and proportional. Afterschool rehab and the chance to prove you learned your lessons would be a good start. Perhaps weekly drug tests, and after having 8 straight negative tests, you can return to after-school activities, dances, and sports. But not expulsion.. that would be a bad thing.
The mistake of peeing hot should only wake the child up and teach them a lesson, not blackball them for life. But I must say tht I do agree with the testing, and wont be swayed by any argument against it. I just wish they'd do that everywhere...
I have some froends who got screwed up by drugs too, but I know that more of them were screwed up by Vietnam.
Originally posted by: palehorse74
whoa there.. let's try to keep it relevant..lol
I take it you don't like that comparison? I think it's part of the bigger picture. We have young people getting killed in war right now who never reached the age where they could go into a bar and have a drink with some friends. We at least ought to allow them to have a few drinks at a school dance.
I guess alot of what I'm saying depends on their ages, but by the time kids are in their Junior or Senior year they should be old enough to make some personal choices. Just because one person can't handle their < insert whatever here> doesn't mean someone else can't, so if it's not hurting anybody else then is it really our business??
Every person is born perfect and is made to feel as though he is the worst person in the world. Everybody yearns unconsciously to return to that perfection and is maintained in this life by a thin breathing tube back to his or her original self. When you take drugs you strengthen the illusion that you are worthless, or you become magnified in some way or another that reveals powers that are latent. Out of ignorance as to what we experience we hasten our destruction or burn through what is latent our of our unconscious need. Drugs have been used by wise men for thousands of years to open a door to the hidden world. We in the modern west have forgotten there is this hidden dimension. The kingdom of heaven is within you but so is the kingdom of hell.
A farmer fumbled in the night to retrieve his coat from the barn unaware there was a lion sleeping there. A saying
A farmer fumbled in the night to retrieve his coat from the barn unaware there was a lion sleeping there. A saying
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: palehorse74
whoa there.. let's try to keep it relevant..lol
I take it you don't like that comparison? I think it's part of the bigger picture. We have young people getting killed in war right now who never reached the age where they could go into a bar and have a drink with some friends. We at least ought to allow them to have a few drinks at a school dance.
I guess alot of what I'm saying depends on their ages, but by the time kids are in their Junior or Senior year they should be old enough to make some personal choices. Just because one person can't handle their < insert whatever here> doesn't mean someone else can't, so if it's not hurting anybody else then is it really our business??
yes, it is, because drug use almost always ends up hurting someone else. period.
I'm not sure why this is really a surprise......many schools in southern CA already have mandatory sign-ups for random drug testing throughout the year for all sports. (IMHO they should screw the random stuff and just target the football team if they actually wanted to catch people, but then there's being PC )
)Well let's see....I am responding to a post. If you want to argue the point that is fine but stick to the point. Obviously you fail to understand why people post...it is to provide information and/or gather opinions....if you don't want either of those things then don't post.
It's not my business, I never said it was. What I am doing is providing an alternative viewpoint...agree or not I really don't care, but the fact is there is no drug test available that determines a timeframe for when drugs are ingested is there? Since that is the fact, then the people taking the test and the people who are reviewing the test must weigh the options and determine if the outcome is worth it. Because whether they are taken 3 weeks ago or 3 hours ago a true positive is a true positive no matter how you slice it.
Now like I said I am all for people being given chances which is why I brought up an option that the school may take.
Trust me if I had a kid I would expect no less of him/her....give them a chance to redeem themselves, if they fvck up...to bad, they knew the possible consequences.
OK, I see your logic..... so let's take it to the extreme. If we're going to test one group of people (there's no harm in it, right) then we should test everyone. Why just school kids? Why just the truck drivers and airline pilots? We should be testing our doctors, nurses, goverment officials, elected or not, CEO's, CFO's, policemen, firemen, everyone should get tested up to and including the the POTUS.
Well, I don't think it's ever going to happen that way, so then let's not test anybody unless they are in a position where their drug use could cause extreme loss of life or limb. I don't see school kids falling into that category and I can't and won't give it my "stamp of approval".
I think this is more a power grab then it is concern for the kids. You and I have disagreed about this kind of thing before as I recall, with seat belts. I don't think the goverment should be able to coerce me into wearing a seat belt or a motorcycle helmet either. I guess that comes from being raised and living in the wide open spaces.
Heck Montana didn't even have a speed limit until a couple of years ago. I believe their law concerning how fast you can drive said something about a reasonable speed for the conditions?? The last time I was stopped for speeding the officer told me that they had just had an accident in the area so to tone it down for a while. He didn't even bother with a warning ticket. There is a litle town of around 1000 people not too far from my farm and it doesn't have a stop sign in it, anyplace. Not even one!! It's a point fo pride with the people in that town and you have never seen so many courteous drivers!
I don't think blind justice is any substitute for common sense and good judgement. If someone is abusing drugs and getting out of control around here everybody knows it. We don't (and shouldn't) have to make them pee in a bottle. It just makes us look like a bunch of hypocrits.
Well, I've drifted way off topic so I hope you can see where I'm coming from.
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: palehorse74
whoa there.. let's try to keep it relevant..lol
I take it you don't like that comparison? I think it's part of the bigger picture. We have young people getting killed in war right now who never reached the age where they could go into a bar and have a drink with some friends. We at least ought to allow them to have a few drinks at a school dance.
I guess alot of what I'm saying depends on their ages, but by the time kids are in their Junior or Senior year they should be old enough to make some personal choices. Just because one person can't handle their < insert whatever here> doesn't mean someone else can't, so if it's not hurting anybody else then is it really our business??
yes, it is, because drug use almost always ends up hurting someone else. period.
That's a pretty general statment. You could also say that driving a car almost always ends up hurting someone. Heck, life ALWAYS ends up hurting someone!!
In life sh*t happens all the time. We pick ourselves up, try to figure out what went wrong so we don't make that mistake again, and then move on. Experience is the best teacher.
If corporations wish to drug test anyone and anyone they have that right but then we would be in the same argument with different players. I don't understand why kids should have the same rights that adults do, they don't....if they want the same rights fine, but they should also be prepared to pay the price just like adults do.
Most places of employment make you take a drug test, and some even maintain random testing so what is the problem? Are you gonna argue at your interview that you feel that it violates your rights to take a urine test? When your boss tells you that your name was drawn for random testing are you gonna fight it because it is "not fair"? Not unless you have something to hide. If you refuse, clean or not you could be disciplined for refusing....is it worth it?
Is it because this was sanctioned by a school? Well let them put it up for a vote and if it passes then it sticks....I really don't understand what the problem is.
Most places of employment make you take a drug test, and some even maintain random testing so what is the problem? Are you gonna argue at your interview that you feel that it violates your rights to take a urine test? When your boss tells you that your name was drawn for random testing are you gonna fight it because it is "not fair"? Not unless you have something to hide. If you refuse, clean or not you could be disciplined for refusing....is it worth it?
Is it because this was sanctioned by a school? Well let them put it up for a vote and if it passes then it sticks....I really don't understand what the problem is.
The problem is that some people, fundamentally, don't want to be meddled with. You can make all the arguments you want about protecting the children, but I doubt you're ever going to convince the people who think the government (and corporations and other people) should just mind their own damn business, this premptive spying tends to piss people off.
And I can really see where they are coming from. I don't always agree with the libertarian folks about everything, but I can understand their feelings. I'm not sure that we have the right to intrude on the lives of anyone, even kids, who haven't done anything wrong.
Why should you have to pee in a bottle to get a job? Can't they just hire you based on your resume and interview?
How long do you think it will be before they start checking your DNA to screen for people who might be high risk for cancer, diabtes, heart attack, etc.? You know those things are going to eat into profits and if a coporation wants to check for them then they have that right.
If they can make you pee in a bottle for a drug test then it won't be long until they will make you submit to DNA screening.
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