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Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Now I'm going to go off on a (small) tangent. We DONT need more taxes, nor do we need MORE handouts. What we really truly need is reform of welfare programs to promote individual responsibility and drive to get off the programs. Many will agree throwing money at problems rarely solves anything, and yet they turn right around and continually talk about throwing money at welfare programs.
Yes, the magical responsibility fairy will start sprinkling her dust on all of the poor people and she will do it for no added cost right? No one has come up with any plan that even comes close to working and why? Because the government cannot and will not ever be able to influence these people to be more responsible by reforming these programs. You and I have had this discussion before. Generally speaking, welfare programs are a band aid solution for the real problems such as education for example. In order to "fix" the welfare "problem" what you need to do first is fix the problems which require us to provide welfare in the first place. You cannot "fix" welfare directly.
I contend thats a bandaid answer. I also contend the reason nobody has worked to affect meaningful reform is from fear. Fear they will lose votes. Fear of telling people its time to get off the couch and get a job.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Now I'm going to go off on a (small) tangent. We DONT need more taxes, nor do we need MORE handouts. What we really truly need is reform of welfare programs to promote individual responsibility and drive to get off the programs. Many will agree throwing money at problems rarely solves anything, and yet they turn right around and continually talk about throwing money at welfare programs.
Yes, the magical responsibility fairy will start sprinkling her dust on all of the poor people and she will do it for no added cost right? No one has come up with any plan that even comes close to working and why? Because the government cannot and will not ever be able to influence these people to be more responsible by reforming these programs. You and I have had this discussion before. Generally speaking, welfare programs are a band aid solution for the real problems such as education for example. In order to "fix" the welfare "problem" what you need to do first is fix the problems which require us to provide welfare in the first place. You cannot "fix" welfare directly.
I contend thats a bandaid answer. I also contend the reason nobody has worked to affect meaningful reform is from fear. Fear they will lose votes. Fear of telling people its time to get off the couch and get a job.
What jobs? These people don't qualify for anything. Everything requires higher education these days let alone a HS diploma which many do not even have. Most of the jobs that do not such as manufacturing are now being outsourced or replaced by automated solutions. How many McDonalds and Starbucks do you see out there begging for a larger pool of applicants because they are struggling due to a shortage?

Yes, votes and fear play a role, but what exactly do you want these politicians to do that doesn't cost you a ton of extra money to fix that is actually effective even if they didn't have such fears?
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Now I'm going to go off on a (small) tangent. We DONT need more taxes, nor do we need MORE handouts. What we really truly need is reform of welfare programs to promote individual responsibility and drive to get off the programs. Many will agree throwing money at problems rarely solves anything, and yet they turn right around and continually talk about throwing money at welfare programs.
Yes, the magical responsibility fairy will start sprinkling her dust on all of the poor people and she will do it for no added cost right? No one has come up with any plan that even comes close to working and why? Because the government cannot and will not ever be able to influence these people to be more responsible by reforming these programs. You and I have had this discussion before. Generally speaking, welfare programs are a band aid solution for the real problems such as education for example. In order to "fix" the welfare "problem" what you need to do first is fix the problems which require us to provide welfare in the first place. You cannot "fix" welfare directly.
I contend thats a bandaid answer. I also contend the reason nobody has worked to affect meaningful reform is from fear. Fear they will lose votes. Fear of telling people its time to get off the couch and get a job.
What jobs? These people don't qualify for anything. Everything requires higher education these days let alone a HS diploma which many do not even have. Most of the jobs that do not such as manufacturing are now being outsourced or replaced by automated solutions. How many McDonalds and Starbucks do you see out there begging for a larger pool of applicants because they are struggling due to a shortage?

Yes, votes and fear play a role, but what exactly do you want these politicians to do that doesn't cost you a ton of extra money to fix that is actually effective even if they didn't have such fears?
OK, let me ask you this.
What would happen is we kicked out all the illegals in this country. What would happen to the job markets.

I argue your first failing is assuming you have to have a college education to have a job. I also argue you assume everyone is entitled to have a good standard of living without one.

I contend you are creating bandaid reasons to support the rampant abuse of social programs. The first step is admitting not everyone can have a wonderful standard of living. We cant all have big houses, fast cars and high paying jobs.

Some of us will be nothing more then a broom pusher with rabbit ears at home. BUT!! They could have a home and food on the table.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Xavier434
What jobs? These people don't qualify for anything. Everything requires higher education these days let alone a HS diploma which many do not even have. Most of the jobs that do not such as manufacturing are now being outsourced or replaced by automated solutions. How many McDonalds and Starbucks do you see out there begging for a larger pool of applicants because they are struggling due to a shortage?

Yes, votes and fear play a role, but what exactly do you want these politicians to do that doesn't cost you a ton of extra money to fix that is actually effective even if they didn't have such fears?
OK, let me ask you this.
What would happen is we kicked out all the illegals in this country. What would happen to the job markets.

I argue your first failing is assuming you have to have a college education to have a job. I also argue you assume everyone is entitled to have a good standard of living without one.

I contend you are creating bandaid reasons to support the rampant abuse of social programs. The first step is admitting not everyone can have a wonderful standard of living. We cant all have big houses, fast cars and high paying jobs.

Some of us will be nothing more then a broom pusher with rabbit ears at home. BUT!! They could have a home and food on the table.
After you boil down all of the hate and entitlement shit, it all boils down to a single goal and question. What can we do that creates a true and realistic impact on the improvement of personal responsibility in this country on the adults without leaving their kids with the short end of the stick? We can't leave the kids with the short end of the stick because it is only counter productive towards the success of our goal and we can't leave the parents with the short end of the stick by pulling the ground out from beneath their feat because it will trickle down more heavily upon the kids than it will the parents. The only real answer is to teach them how to do it and to start at an early age. Trying to teach an adult who has already spend at least quarter of a century following the same old downward spiral routine is not going to work through cheap budgets funding retarded workshops that these people attend once a month for an hour at best. It will be a complete waste of money.

What you can do is spend more money on teaching their kids the life skills that they need to avoid following the footsteps of their parents. I suggest adding a lot more of that stuff throughout all of the required education K-12. Hell, I even support adding a grade 13 so that we can spread out the curriculum with in K-12 in order to make more time every semester and every week to teach these gradually progressive life skills that every adult needs in order to make intelligent decisions about being personally and financially responsible? Will that be really expensive? You bet, but guess what? If you want it all then you have to expect to pay for it and it will be an investment. You go through a couple generations of kids being taught this stuff successfully and you will find them passing it on to their kids just like responsible parents of today do.

That's not enough though. We can' just teach them this stuff. They need more opportunities to get good jobs without going into ridiculous debt. College costs need to go down and we need more options aside from college. I recommend bringing back public vocational schools so that the kids who get through HS or even drop out can at least learn some kind of useful marketable skill.

Yet, that STILL isn't enough. We need to have jobs for these people. We need to bring back manufacturing to America. We need to stop all of the god damn outsourcing.

After all of that, you got the life skills, you got the education, and you got the jobs. Once all of that starts working a lot better only then will you be able to substantially reduce many of the welfare social services out there. Until then....keep living the pipe dream.

In terms of immigration problems, that's much like the relationship of education and welfare. You don't reform welfare to fix immigration. You fix immigration and then reform welfare.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
All of business should be looking at tax plans, its does not matter how efficient your business, but when the customer has no money left to spend for your products, you are out of business. And after eight years of GWB, the rich have gotten much richer, while most Americans have lost purchasing power meaning they can not be the customer they once were.
 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
From what I understand, most small businesses don't pay taxes because their sheets never show a profit. It's a pretty blatent scheme to avoid taxes, but if they're small enough (or pay some taxes occasionally) the IRS won't care because they're providing jobs.

I would doubt that a tax increase less than 5% would affect most small business' bottom line much. They'll still show no profit, or if they are forced to show some profit then they're doing well enough to pay for the taxes anyway.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
I need more details around the $250K. Is this profit, or is this revenue?

Cause if it is revenue - OW. But increasing tax on $250K profit is a different story.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,414
616
126
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Originally posted by: Citrix
lets reward success by making taxes higher for success. yea sounds like a great plan to me.:roll:

so instead of a small business using that money to give bonuses or buy equipment they have to pay Obama... whoot!!!

Obamas tax plans sucks for small business

Mccains health plan sucks for small business.
OMG 3% increase!.. how will they ever survive!

I really wish the uneducated would get a look at a tax return of a small business. My friend owns a small business doing music and he gets INSANE amounts of tax WRITE OFFS

By the time it's done it seems like he's getting back more money then he even put in.
I own a small business as well and a 3% increase in my tax is a big deal to me.
I'd love to see proof you make over $250K and I'd love to see how shitty you file your taxes then.
lol like that is going to happen.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,397
9,240
126
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Joe the Plumber fact check.
Thats the biggest problem these days.
We dont stand up for the other guy.

"Oh, I only make 80k, and hes going to tax those making over 250k. Well, screw those rich bastards!"
Well, there appears to be another problem for Joe Wurzelbacher in that he doesn't appear to have a plumber's license or even any proof of apprenticeship, but operates out of someone else's name. From what I have read, that is legal in Ohio, but FYI not in most states. That and he has liens against him for failing to pay taxes.

IOW, the McCain camp fails at vetting... again.
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Joe the Plumber fact check.
Thats the biggest problem these days.
We dont stand up for the other guy.

"Oh, I only make 80k, and hes going to tax those making over 250k. Well, screw those rich bastards!"
Well, there appears to be another problem for Joe Wurzelbacher in that he doesn't appear to have a plumber's license or even any proof of apprenticeship, but operates out of someone else's name. From what I have read, that is legal in Ohio, but FYI not in most states. That and he has liens against him for failing to pay taxes.

IOW, the McCain camp fails at vetting... again.
It doesn't really matter though because the debate was the last "large" discussion between the two before the election. Its intended effect will still at least be somewhat effective because there really won't be a debunking in front of the same people who witnessed it.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,563
3
0
Interesting no one has brought up the earned income tax credit.
I think it should be applied to small businesses with one or two people.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: techs
Interesting no one has brought up the earned income tax credit.
I think it should be applied to small businesses with one or two people.
It already does apply (to the owners/employees of the small business).

Fern
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,563
3
0
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: techs
Interesting no one has brought up the earned income tax credit.
I think it should be applied to small businesses with one or two people.
It already does apply (to the owners/employees of the small business).

Fern
Huh. I need to go back and look at my returns to see. My accountant takes care of it.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
11,903
1,242
126
Already mentioned in another thread, but I am a self employed professional, and many of my clients are self employed as well. My wife is self employed, as is her brother and his wife. The four of us are all staunch Obama supporters. Nearly all of my clients are as well, except for a small segment that are basically diehard GOP no matter what.

Worrying about a 3% tax increase for everything over $250,000 in NET income after expenses is a pretty trivial problem. I'm always amazed at the GOP who are so willing to send our young into war and possible death or permanent maiming but they absolutely bristle at the thought of having to pay anything for governmental services. Of course, those are usually the Bush type businessmen who fanagle government subsidies for their stadiums or other businesses.

 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
4
81
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Originally posted by: Citrix
lets reward success by making taxes higher for success. yea sounds like a great plan to me.:roll:

so instead of a small business using that money to give bonuses or buy equipment they have to pay Obama... whoot!!!

Obamas tax plans sucks for small business

Mccains health plan sucks for small business.
OMG 3% increase!.. how will they ever survive!

I really wish the uneducated would get a look at a tax return of a small business. My friend owns a small business doing music and he gets INSANE amounts of tax WRITE OFFS

By the time it's done it seems like he's getting back more money then he even put in.
I own a small business as well and a 3% increase in my tax is a big deal to me.
I'd love to see proof you make over $250K and I'd love to see how shitty you file your taxes then.
lol like that is going to happen.
C'mon I'm over by City park I can make the drive to your business and do a fact check :D

Oh wait you meant your chances of making over 250K.. I get the joke now :p
 

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