SLI an economical upgrade path? Doesn't look that way.

[CaiNaM]

not an knock; it's still a good luxury option for those that want the best NOW. just not a very viable "upgrade path" for those concerned with costs. Good read., and should make for some interesting discussions 🙂

Before SLI-capable motherboards started showing up on retail sales lists, SLI had a lot going for it despite the caveats already covered. Regardless of its shortcomings, it offered another upgrade option versus any other graphic card proviso. But now that pricing is available, the jig is up so to speak, on the viability of Nforce SLI where upgradeability is concerned. SLI capable motherboards are selling for 2 to 3 or more times the price of non-SLI boards. Factor in the likely expense of a new power supply; and simply spending more on a single card solution with immediate benefits starts to look good. For those who are trying to spread expenditures out over time, buying a very cheap solution now and replacing it as current high-end parts get cheaper is a better option. With the current vicious product cycle, the next generation GPUs will soon arrive and force the price of today?s hot parts downward.

 

[xtknight]

Don't make the same mistake I just did with getting two 6600 GT's instead of one 6800 GT for the same price. The SLI combo was badly bandwidth limited by the memory. Though, chances are my 6800 GT will be outdated next year by NV48 or R520 kind of like the Radeon 9800XT is outdated now but was state of the art last year. Now they have cards that can outperform it (9800XT) three-fold thus making SLI useless because you don't want two slower cards slower than a current-gen. However, the pricing of SLI "2 to 3" times the non-SLI boards is false. The A7N8X was about (nForce2), what, $149 when it came out? I think a reasonable guess would be $149 for an Ultra board. The MSRP for A8N-SLI Deluxe is $199 and for the A8N-SLI Regular was $169 or so. Both of these are SLI even, and I doubt the first nForce4 Ultra boards are going to drop below $150.

 

[Killrose]

Yep, not a viable path at all really. I'll take my single 6800U over SLI 6600's . I'd bet today's best SLI setup is beaten handily by the next gen. GPU. And Gigabytes dual GPU or anybody's for that matter will kill the SLI idea, or put it's future in serious doubt.

 

[Avalon]

I've said all along that SLI is only for those who want to take it to the extreme with two 6800GTs or Ultras, and nothing less.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Killrose
Yep, not a viable path at all really. I'll take my single 6800U over SLI 6600's . I'd bet today's best SLI setup is beaten handily by the next gen. GPU. And Gigabytes dual GPU or anybody's for that matter will kill the SLI idea, or put it's future in serious doubt.

I don't know how true that is. A single 6800U is bottlenecked to a certain extent by even today's fastest CPU. FX-55 is it?. A tremendous amount of CPU power is required before the bottleneck becomes gpu releated. My opinion. As CPU power increases, so will performance of SLI.

 

[yhelothar]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Killrose
Yep, not a viable path at all really. I'll take my single 6800U over SLI 6600's . I'd bet today's best SLI setup is beaten handily by the next gen. GPU. And Gigabytes dual GPU or anybody's for that matter will kill the SLI idea, or put it's future in serious doubt.

I don't know how true that is. A single 6800U is bottlenecked to a certain extent by even today's fastest CPU. FX-55 is it?. A tremendous amount of CPU power is required before the bottleneck becomes gpu releated. My opinion. As CPU power increases, so will performance of SLI.

Depends on the resolution. It's hardly bottlenecked at all at 1600x1200 w/AA/AF
But if you want to run lower than that.. well you should have spent the money on a better monitor.

The stupidity of some people bothers me. They buy a $400 6800GT to run on their 17" CRT. Uh what difference will they see over a 5900/9800 at 1024x768? :roll:

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Killrose
Yep, not a viable path at all really. I'll take my single 6800U over SLI 6600's . I'd bet today's best SLI setup is beaten handily by the next gen. GPU. And Gigabytes dual GPU or anybody's for that matter will kill the SLI idea, or put it's future in serious doubt.

I don't know how true that is. A single 6800U is bottlenecked to a certain extent by even today's fastest CPU. FX-55 is it?. A tremendous amount of CPU power is required before the bottleneck becomes gpu releated. My opinion. As CPU power increases, so will performance of SLI.

Depends on the resolution. It's hardly bottlenecked at all at 1600x1200 w/AA/AF
But if you want to run lower than that.. well you should have spent the money on a better monitor.

The stupidity of some people bothers me. They buy a $400 6800GT to run on their 17" CRT. Uh what difference will they see over a 5900/9800 at 1024x768? :roll:

17" monitor means 1024x768
It also means to get better graphics you need AA/AF.
6800 will mean they can run with AA/AF, while a 5900 will mean no AA/AF
A 6800 will also keep up with modern games.

But: you have a valid point. I would upgrade my monitor before I upgraded my graphics card, if I didn't already have a 19" CRT.

For LCD's though, often AA/AF is the ONLY way to make things look better (if you are limited to a set res. as most LCD's are). If you can only run 1280x1024, being able to use AA/AF (as a 6800 allows you) is very nice.

 

[bigal40]

SLI is not a viable upgrade path for someone that wants cutting edge graphics. It is an upgrade path for someone who doesn;t mind midrange graphics. If you buy one 6600gt now and in a year you get another you will have decent midrange graphics for 2 years.

Lets say a year ago when the 9800 pro was the best around you bought a 9700pro. You had what would be considered a midrange graphics card. Then two months ago you baought another 9700pro and put them in SLI(not that you realy could). I don't know for sure but i would think that 2 9700pros would compete with a 6600gt.

 

[bob661]

Originally posted by: bigal40
SLI is not a viable upgrade path for someone that wants cutting edge graphics.

I disagree. Those that ride the cutting edge will more than likely buy two of the latest and greatest graphics now instead one as before. If you go into the Asus motherboard forum, you will see many people paying anal rape prices just to get an SLI board. If those people don't care about waiting to save $100 just to get the best today, they sure as hell don't care about whether or not their $500 video card is obsolete in 6 months. Look around, there's definitely a market for these boards. I personally am not in the $500 video every 6 months crowd but because I upgrade so infrequently, SLI is a VERY viable option for me even if I only run one video card. Remember, you don't have to run two cards. Buy one, then buy another later. When those are old and can't hang in games, buy another to replace the two old one's. Later buy another. Athough it doesn't run at the be all and end all of frame rates, a FX5700 will play all of todays games pretty well. Just image if you could buy one more of those cards for today's prices. Would you need to buy a 6600 or 6800?

 

[bigal40]

Originally posted by: bob661

Originally posted by: bigal40
SLI is not a viable upgrade path for someone that wants cutting edge graphics.

I disagree. Those that ride the cutting edge will more than likely buy two of the latest and greatest graphics now instead one as before. If you go into the Asus motherboard forum, you will see many people paying anal rape prices just to get an SLI board. If those people don't care about waiting to save $100 just to get the best today, they sure as hell don't care about whether or not their $500 video card is obsolete in 6 months. Look around, there's definitely a market for these boards. I personally am not in the $500 video every 6 months crowd but because I upgrade so infrequently, SLI is a VERY viable option for me even if I only run one video card. Remember, you don't have to run two cards. Buy one, then buy another later. When those are old and can't hang in games, buy another to replace the two old one's. Later buy another. Athough it doesn't run at the be all and end all of frame rates, a FX5700 will play all of todays games pretty well. Just image if you could buy one more of those cards for today's prices. Would you need to buy a 6600 or 6800?

Buying two of the latest graphics cards does not leave any room for upgrading so it deosn't lead to any upgrade path.

 

[Killrose]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Killrose
Yep, not a viable path at all really. I'll take my single 6800U over SLI 6600's . I'd bet today's best SLI setup is beaten handily by the next gen. GPU. And Gigabytes dual GPU or anybody's for that matter will kill the SLI idea, or put it's future in serious doubt.

I don't know how true that is. A single 6800U is bottlenecked to a certain extent by even today's fastest CPU. FX-55 is it?. A tremendous amount of CPU power is required before the bottleneck becomes gpu releated. My opinion. As CPU power increases, so will performance of SLI.

That may be true. But my point is that SLI is really a poor solution to a problem that really does not exsist. It is an idea that will only really find home in less than 1/10th of a percent or less of computer users, probably a lot less, and 1 year old SLI'd cards will be slower than the latest gen., single GPU. The supposedly whole advantage to SLI is buy one card now HIGH and the second a year later LOW remember.

As long as you only play the most demanding games, at the highest resolutions with AA/AF maxed, and enclude the fastest CPU, memmory and a butt-load of money to drive your SLI cards, whee haw!! you should be happy and the envy of wannabe's like me. Other than that, I pooh pooh SLI whole heartedly 🙂

 

[bob661]

Buying two of the latest graphics cards does not leave any room for upgrading so it deosn't lead to any upgrade path.

LOL! Are the cards welded into the sockets? Of course you can upgrade them. Here's the process: take the two old cards out and insert news one's.

 

[bigal40]

Originally posted by: bob661

Buying two of the latest graphics cards does not leave any room for upgrading so it deosn't lead to any upgrade path.

LOL! Are the cards welded into the sockets? Of course you can upgrade them. Here's the process: take the two old cards out and insert news one's.

Yes but you can do that without SLI. THat can be done with any component. I belive the point of this thread was to discuss the advantages SLI gives to upgrading...But thanks for the the comment smart a$$

 

[Bateluer]

Next gen cards will likely deliver more performance than SLI 6800Us, at a lower price point than two 6800Us.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: bigal40
SLI is not a viable upgrade path for someone that wants cutting edge graphics. It is an upgrade path for someone who doesn;t mind midrange graphics. If you buy one 6600gt now and in a year you get another you will have decent midrange graphics for 2 years.

Lets say a year ago when the 9800 pro was the best around you bought a 9700pro. You had what would be considered a midrange graphics card. Then two months ago you baought another 9700pro and put them in SLI(not that you realy could). I don't know for sure but i would think that 2 9700pros would compete with a 6600gt.

This doesn't make any sense at all BigAL- here's why:

"SLI is not a viable upgrade path for someone that wants cutting edge graphics."
There are no video cards with more advanced features than nV40s, or faster than SLI- so it's as "cuttingedge" as it gets.

"It is an upgrade path for someone who doesn;t mind midrange graphics."
Two 6800GTs or Ultras stomp beat everything, so by definition they are "high end".

"If you buy one 6600gt now and in a year you get another you will have decent midrange graphics for 2 years."
OK, but you're forgetting GTs and Us.

"I don't know for sure but i would think that 2 9700pros would compete with a 6600gt."
Two 9700Pros would waste a 6600GT.

'Lets say a year ago when the 9800 pro was the best around you bought a 9700pro. You had what would be considered a midrange graphics card."
Yeah that 10% clock hike on the 9800Pro put it in a whole other league. :roll:

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
Next gen cards will likely deliver more performance than SLI 6800Us, at a lower price point than two 6800Us.

Perhaps. Of course we have no idea when they'll be available in quantity at those lower prices either.

All we have are rumors of specs, rumors of launch dates, and guesses at pricing.

Will a R520 beat a 6800U in performance? Could be. Will I be able to get one anywhere but Ebay for <$600 before next fall? Maybe.

The advantage SLI has is that I could order one now. I think this year should have proved to us all that "projected launch date" has very little to do with possible acquisition date.

When you factor in that R520 is a new core on a new die size, and TSMCs recent fumbles bringing new cores and die sizes to market, I'm none to confident of shelves overflowing with MSRP R520s anytime soon.

My $.02- Happy Holidays.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Bateluer
Next gen cards will likely deliver more performance than SLI 6800Us, at a lower price point than two 6800Us.

Perhaps. Of course we have no idea when they'll be available in quantity at those lower prices either.

All we have are rumors of specs, rumors of launch dates, and guesses at pricing.

Will a R520 beat a 6800U in performance? Could be. Will I be able to get one anywhere but Ebay for <$600 before next fall? Maybe.

The advantage SLI has is that I could order one now. I think this year should have proved to us all that "projected launch date" has very little to do with possible acquisition date.

When you factor in that R520 is a new core on a new die size, and TSMCs recent fumbles bringing new cores and die sizes to market, I'm none to confident of shelves overflowing with MSRP R520s anytime soon.

My $.02- Happy Holidays.

This is true

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Avalon
I've said all along that SLI is only for those who want to take it to the extreme with two 6800GTs or Ultras, and nothing less.

Well you were wrong then and you're still wrong.

😀

SLI is in its infancy. 😉

And not too expensive for bleeding-edge technology. 😉

As i see it, it is VERY practical to buy a sli capable MB ( a relatively small premium now of 1.5x a regular one) and a capable PS (anyway) and just ONE card that your want to play your games NOW.

THEN - when your newest games' FPS start to slow down - buy another one to hold you till the next card you can afford (rinse and repeat).

it's so simple a concept to grasp, it's difficult 😛
:roll:

 

[bob661]

Thanks apoppin. That's what I've been trying to say. It would be nice to see how two 5950 Ultra's would compare to the 6xxxx series video cards. Everyone assumes that the next gen cards will be faster than present gen cards in SLI mode. I don't think that will be the case as that would be a HUGE leap in performance from the present cards. Who knows? Even if they do that, SLI is still viable for people like me and for people that MUST always have the best performing computer. Sign me up.

About the smart ass comment. It's one thing to say that this technology is not for you and then state the reasons why and quite another to say the technology is no good because YOU can't find a reason to use it.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Mainly focusing on the articles discussions as of this point.

First issue is the need for a new power supply- big difference with SLI is that those who were running 300-350Watt PSUs will have to upgrade to a ~550Watt PSU instead of a ~450Watt PSU when they run from their early XP/P4s up to FXs/EEs. Unless you seriously overbuild when you upgrade, buying a new PSU with every or every other system overhaul should be standard if for no other reason then the typical ramping of power requirements we have had.

Next up is BTX and the assertion that ATX is only capable of dealing with another couple gens of heat for single GPU configurations. Speaking for myself(although Rollo will likely agree 🙂 ) my XaserIII and I aren't sweating heat issues anytime soon. When BTX catches on it will be another upgrade factor, but it certainly isn't a requirement anywhere close to soon for those of us packing high end ATX cases now- SLI or not.

"Limiting upgrade options" due to nV's SLI....? He talks about ATi's upcoming SLI parts, and mentions Alienware's SLI offering, and then goes on to say that nV's SLI is limiting your potential upgrade options. This is obviously absurd as right now the NF4 SLI is the best AMD mobo you can buy for any graphics card on the market period. Saying that some other part coming up in the future may offer more upgrade options then nV's currently SLI is utterly assinine- right now it is the most flexible option available bar none.

Prices on the mobo are due to gouging, everyone knew this was going to happen and despite the incredibly inflated prices everyone is selling out of their stock. Sorry guys, if I was running a shop and I had some NF4 SLI parts in right now do you think I would rather sell out of them by selling them for $150 or $250? It isn't exactly a tough choice 😉 That said, you can find places selling them for under $200(although they tend to be sold out) which given the feature set it packs besides SLI is about a $50 premium over comparable mobos. Certainly not in the realm of 2x-3x more expensive as the article states. Sure, if you look at buying the cheapest mobo without dual GBit etc, etc you can find one for the price they implied 'other' mobos were going for- but not when you are looking at the high end(unless you look for places asking $300 for the SLI mobos which you can find).

 

[stnicralisk]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
not an knock; it's still a good luxury option for those that want the best NOW. just not a very viable "upgrade path" for those concerned with costs. Good read., and should make for some interesting discussions 🙂

Before SLI-capable motherboards started showing up on retail sales lists, SLI had a lot going for it despite the caveats already covered. Regardless of its shortcomings, it offered another upgrade option versus any other graphic card proviso. But now that pricing is available, the jig is up so to speak, on the viability of Nforce SLI where upgradeability is concerned. SLI capable motherboards are selling for 2 to 3 or more times the price of non-SLI boards. Factor in the likely expense of a new power supply; and simply spending more on a single card solution with immediate benefits starts to look good. For those who are trying to spread expenditures out over time, buying a very cheap solution now and replacing it as current high-end parts get cheaper is a better option. With the current vicious product cycle, the next generation GPUs will soon arrive and force the price of today?s hot parts downward.

Pricing will drop rapidly most likely.

Gigabyte is also making a dual core on a single card 6600gt that comes with a SLI nf4 motherboard that is going to have an MSRP of less than a 6800u MSRP. While we dont have real world benchmarks of the card it supposedly performs better than a regular SLI 6600gt configuration due to it being 256bit and communicating across a shorter path.

SLI also will sell like crazy in the CG community.

One thing to consider is that if CPU's have hit a wall and are going to dual cores and GPU's have basically always used parallelism to get faster then it is very likely that we will be seing more interfaced GPU's working in parallel in the future. IMHO Nvidia is just preparing for the future.

 

[stnicralisk]

Originally posted by: bob661
Thanks apoppin. That's what I've been trying to say. It would be nice to see how two 5950 Ultra's would compare to the 6xxxx series video cards. Everyone assumes that the next gen cards will be faster than present gen cards in SLI mode. I don't think that will be the case as that would be a HUGE leap in performance from the present cards. Who knows? Even if they do that, SLI is still viable for people like me and for people that MUST always have the best performing computer. Sign me up.

About the smart ass comment. It's one thing to say that this technology is not for you and then state the reasons why and quite another to say the technology is no good because YOU can't find a reason to use it.

The problem with comparing two 5950's to two 6xxx cards is that the 5950 was a horrible piece of metal and plastic and the 6xxx was actually built to dx9 specs. Nvidia likely will not have such a jump to its next gen of cards as it had with this one.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Avalon
I've said all along that SLI is only for those who want to take it to the extreme with two 6800GTs or Ultras, and nothing less.

Well you were wrong then and you're still wrong.

😀

SLI is in its infancy. 😉

And not too expensive for bleeding-edge technology. 😉

As i see it, it is VERY practical to buy a sli capable MB ( a relatively small premium now of 1.5x a regular one) and a capable PS (anyway) and just ONE card that your want to play your games NOW.

THEN - when your newest games' FPS start to slow down - buy another one to hold you till the next card you can afford (rinse and repeat).

it's so simple a concept to grasp, it's difficult 😛
:roll:

The problem is that you're counting on two things to happen in this situation:

1) By the time that your system starts to get too slow with one card, it is cheaper to buy a second matching card than to sell your current card and buy one newer/faster one.

2) The two cards put together are still 'fast' relative to the cards that are currently available.

These two things tend to be mutually exclusive.

If R500/NV50 are much, much faster (say, 75+% faster) than NV40/R420, then prices will likely drop significantly on the NV40s -- but unless they drop a *lot*, and you already have a 6800GT/Ultra, the SLI setup will be slower and probably less cost-effective than a single really fast next-gen card. If they are not that much faster (say, 25-50% faster), then your 6800GT SLI looks good in terms of performance relative to a single card -- but prices on the cards will probably not drop that much, because the cards are still 'fast' (look at, say, the 9700Pro, which is still worth ~$150 new). It's a catch-22.

Plus, buying an SLI-capable system and one 6600GT with the intention of adding another later makes little sense at current prices; it would be better to save the premium on the motherboard/PSU and just get a single 6800GT now (which is faster than the 6600GT SLI)! If you could get a great price on a 6800 or 6800GT PCIe, they might be attractive, but you're still gambling that prices on them will drop significantly in the next 6-12 months (which I find unlikely).

If you weren't paying $50-150 more for an SLI motherboard, and didn't need a real beefy PSU for two 6800GT/Ultra cards, I'd say: "sure, what the heck, buy it and if some miracle happens and the economics work out, you can upgrade to an SLI setup instead of a new card." But right now, you'd be better off buying a cheaper single-card NF4 motherboard and a faster video card now, unless you want to buy a whole 6800GT/Ultra SLI setup right now.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Whomever said it is an economical upgrade solution needs to put the crack pipe down. First gen. bleeding edge hardware is never economical, as has been the case in the past, you must still expect to pay a premium for living on the bleeding edge. However, as the tech matures it often filters down to the mainstream markets and an excellent price-to-performance solution usually emerges.

I still maintain parallel/concurrent is the near future, and that the expectations of each succeeding gen. GPU being 75-100% faster than the last can't hold up much longer if they don't get around the limitations of current packaging tech and materials. Even if they are able to create that performance in a single GPU you will see longer time between releases and paper launches will edge more toward vapor launches IMHO 🙂

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Avalon
I've said all along that SLI is only for those who want to take it to the extreme with two 6800GTs or Ultras, and nothing less.

Well you were wrong then and you're still wrong.

😀

SLI is in its infancy. 😉

And not too expensive for bleeding-edge technology. 😉

As i see it, it is VERY practical to buy a sli capable MB ( a relatively small premium now of 1.5x a regular one) and a capable PS (anyway) and just ONE card that your want to play your games NOW.

THEN - when your newest games' FPS start to slow down - buy another one to hold you till the next card you can afford (rinse and repeat).

it's so simple a concept to grasp, it's difficult 😛
:roll:

The problem is that you're counting on two things to happen in this situation:

1) By the time that your system starts to get too slow with one card, it is cheaper to buy a second matching card than to sell your current card and buy one newer/faster one.

2) The two cards put together are still 'fast' relative to the cards that are currently available.

These two things tend to be mutually exclusive.

If R500/NV50 are much, much faster (say, 75+% faster) than NV40/R420, then prices will likely drop significantly on the NV40s -- but unless they drop a *lot*, and you already have a 6800GT/Ultra, the SLI setup will be slower and probably less cost-effective than a single really fast next-gen card. If they are not that much faster (say, 25-50% faster), then your 6800GT SLI looks good in terms of performance relative to a single card -- but prices on the cards will probably not drop that much, because the cards are still 'fast' (look at, say, the 9700Pro, which is still worth ~$150 new). It's a catch-22.

Plus, buying an SLI-capable system and one 6600GT with the intention of adding another later makes little sense at current prices; it would be better to save the premium on the motherboard/PSU and just get a single 6800GT now (which is faster than the 6600GT SLI)! If you could get a great price on a 6800 or 6800GT PCIe, they might be attractive, but you're still gambling that prices on them will drop significantly in the next 6-12 months (which I find unlikely).

If you weren't paying $50-150 more for an SLI motherboard, and didn't need a real beefy PSU for two 6800GT/Ultra cards, I'd say: "sure, what the heck, buy it and if some miracle happens and the economics work out, you can upgrade to an SLI setup instead of a new card." But right now, you'd be better off buying a cheaper single-card NF4 motherboard and a faster video card now, unless you want to buy a whole 6800GT/Ultra SLI setup right now.

There is an Asus MB that does NOT require the 24 pin connector . . . i already have a 480w PS, so 2 6800GTs in sli would be an option - for me.

The ONLY difference (assuming you have a capable PS) is the costs of the SLI MB . . . . probably won't be much of a premium (~$50) once the newness (and price gouging) wears off.

As i said before, just buy the Sli setup and the ONE card you want to run your current games NOW. THEN - when your games slow down - you have the OPTION(s) to 1) Sell your card and buy another single card or 2) add a second card for SLI.

I don't think i can explain it any easier.

To me, the extra $50 for the sli MB is no big deal to preserve my upgrade option. 😉