(!!!) Sins of a Solar Empire Expansion (Sins-2?) --- ANNOUNCED --- !!!

[obidamnkenobi]

I hear you Obi, I'm the same shooters= online only for me and RTS(s)=single player. I really enjoyed C&C3 & Supreme Commander but I simply am not good enough to play against other humans.

I have been giving out some easy wins in starcraft 2 though Have about 30 games and used to be about 50-50 w/l but started going downhill so haven't touched it in a while. The matchmaking in SC2 isn't bad actually. Think I'm just sore loser, and don't have time to play enough.

So I have been unable to find any info what is in the Rebellion expansion. Since it's stand alone it does sound like all the same stuff is in there, so that would give me the original and the two previous expansions. I'm tempted to just get the trinity pack now, but $40 is a lot more than I usually pay for games, especially since I don't know how much I like it yet. I did enjoy the demo..

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Found the demo I downloaded a year ago (!) and I think I really enjoyed this game! But now I'm confused about this expansion. Will it include Trinity as well, or should I buy that and just get Rebellion later?

Rebellion will include all of the content from the Original Sins (aka "Vanilla"), the Entrenchment expansion, and the Diplomacy expansion (all of which make up "Trinity", with Trinity just being a fancy name for "complete compilation"). You don't need to own any of the other games to purchase Rebellion as a stand-alone product.

Whether or not you should get Trinity now or wait and buy Rebellion later is another story. We don't know when the Rebellion beta will be ready. They say Fall 2011. I guess the big question is, how badly do you want to play this game and how much free time (until the Rebellion beta comes out) do you have to play it? If you have the entire summer off then it might be worth it to get Trinity now. (You'll also save $10 on Rebellion later if you purchase it as a download.) On the other hand, if you only have 2 hours per week to play then it might be better to just wait until the Rebellion beta is ready.

I'm also a little worried how hardcore the online play is with a game this old. Comp stomp sounds fun for this game, but I'm worried even then I'd just screw the team over (and I'd stay out of PvP for sure!). With a game this long that can't be much fun, or very popular Is there any point in coming into the MP part of this game this late, unless i have 6 hr/day for a month to practice?

Don't worry too much about holding your team back in comp stomps. Most of the people playing the comp stomps won't be much better than you and if they are, then they could probably help you get better. Also, if you guys lose then you lose to the AI and not humans who will taunt you. However, it seems to me that most comp stomps are private games played between friends, so it might be hard to find public comp stomp games though I suspect you could try to host them.

There are still a good number of brave souls who are willing to try PvP for the first time out there. Sometimes they stick with it and get up to speed and become respectable players or at least learn to hold their own. I think it takes about 25-50 games depending on where you are when you start playing other people and how serious you are about improving. What you'll discover is that no matter how much you've played the AI, humans do things differently and you need to learn some of their strategies and tactics and to be able to anticipate what other players are likely to do.

We have a system for trying to balance out the teams in 4v4 and 5v5 games where two guys become team captains and draft-pick the other 6 or 8 players. So you could end up in a game where there is another new guy opposite you on the other team. Your goal in such a game would be, "don't die!" and "try to be a pain in the ass."

To get into the PvP you would want to spend a couple weeks or months mastering the single player aspect of the game. You would want to be very knowledgeable about all the races and their ships and tech trees. You want to know their strengths and weaknesses against the other the races. Then when you feel really comfortable with your knowledge of the game and can beat Unfair AIs, you might be ready to take off the training wheels.

Now, it's very possible that Rebellion will reinvigorate online multiplayer and bring hundreds of similarly situated new players online, in which case it will be easier to get started.

I think that one of the big challenges is the amount of material you need to learn. Older vets probably take it for granted, but you have to learn the Original Sins, Entrenchment, the Diplomacy stuff (not that big a deal for multiplayer PvP), and the new Rebellion stuff. That's a lot of content.

So, I recommend that people start off by playing the Original Sins first where the focus is on raw fleet-to-fleet combat, which is the backbone of this game. Then move up to Entrenchment where you will learn about starbases and defensive fortifications. (Entrenchment turned out to be an excellent addition to the online multiplayer PvP aspect of the game.) It won't be too hard to learn what you need to know about Diplomacy for PvP since most Diplomacy games play and feel like Entrenchment.

The addition of the Rebellion material will add another layer of strategic complexity that the vets will have to learn as well.

I'd probably be fine messing around in SP, but MP Sins sounds kinda cool! If I'd ever get the time Ironically I prefer strategy games in general but usually only play shooters online, since it's not as "serious", and there are actually other bad players.. hehe

Hopefully they'll be a big influx of new "bad players" for Rebellion. That might be a compelling reason to get Trinity now--you can learn the game and prepare for when all of the new Rebellion players come online.

By the way, if you do play in a pro game and get stomped by the pros, it's not all a loss. You will have the benefit of being able to watch a replay of the game, allowing you to study what the other players did. If you watch enough of those and study them you'll be able to get up to speed faster.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I hear you Obi, I'm the same shooters= online only for me and RTS(s)=single player. I really enjoyed C&C3 & Supreme Commander but I simply am not good enough to play against other humans.

It's kind of a Catch-22. To become good enough to play against other people you have to play against other people. You have to make that investment of suffering through 50 games while you learn the PvP game.

(If you change the way you think about it and try to make your goal to become tougher and tougher and a bigger and bigger pain-in-the-ass and you try to learn from your mistakes and gain experience and study replays, it probably isn't too miserable of an experience. It's satisfying to see yourself learning and getting better.)

Where are you in your current mastery of the single player game? Can you beat Unfair AI without too much difficulty? If so then you might be ready to test the big league waters.

What's ironic is that if everyone who had the same concerns you did would come online there would be plenty of new people to play against. You guys could even organize yourselves and create a new players' league so that dastardly pros (smurfing as new players) don't crash your party.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I prefer to spend more time building and researching, then going around wreaking terror, but I can't do that here.

This is what the strategy of the game is all about. Guns or butter? You need to be able to assess the situation and determine whether an investment in more economy has more value than an investment in more military units. Economic investments have long-term pay offs. If you need to fight off an opponent, then it might be better to invest in getting a bigger fleet. If you can crush an opponent then invest in that. You can still develop your economy, but you won't be putting all of your resources and effort into it.

As a general rule, unless you are tucked safely between allies on either side, it's probably better to go all-out military or to invest 80-90% military, 10-20% economic development. After all, your economic investments will be useless if your planets get bombed out and the best economic investment you can make is to crush your opponents and take their land.

so, one thing...what's the best for general planet defense if I don't want to keep large fleets there? I like to throw in 2 or more hangers, maybe a gauss gun or two, if I can. Not sure which ships are best to leave hanging around to hold off an attack if I need some time to bring my main fleet back.

A big fleet. Don't let your opponents get to the point where they can hit you in the back. If you're playing Entrenchment or Diplomacy you might consider strategically placed starbases (and let the silly AI suicide on them). However, even starbases need a fleet to back them up. Build some repair bays. Turrets are cheap but they can't move. They can be useful if placed strategically near important structures.

I have two different layouts for my structures. At planets where I plan to defend them (home, choke point) then I bunch them up and add a repair bay or two and maybe a few turrets. That way a starbase can be built right next to them to defend them (or a Vasari starbase could stay nearby).

At planets I don't plan to defend heavily I spread the structures out around the well so that attacking enemy ships have to take time to move around the well and destroy them. (It increases my "pain-in-the-ass" factor.) If you play against me often you'll see that that's how I've set up my trade ports. I try to keep things away from the mineral extractors (unless I'm bunching things up, then I build near them). If a planet is on a dead-end phase lane then I'll try to spread the structures towards the dead-end (back-end) of the gravity well so that my opponents have to move their ships to the back of it.

Ultimately, no amount of fortification will hold back a large and determined enemy fleet, at least not a skilled human-controlled fleet. Bringing in your own fleet to fight amongst your repair bays is really your best defense.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

i turned the pirates off. they are so OP they're broken.

as for defending planets, i take the fight to the enemy. i think the defenses are pretty much a waste of time and money. i notice defenses will slow me down in the middle game, but even in the late game when they're really built up my super-fleets go through them like butter. that's my experience in single player, maybe a human opponent can make them work.

The starbases (SB) need fleets and defensive fortifications to be effective. They also need to be upgraded properly. Human opponents can make them work much better than the AI. If a TEC player wants to take down a starbase, he might be unstoppable if he invests in Orgov spam. I've tried to master Vasari starbase defense against Orgov spam. I like to make the Orgovs chase my sb through mine fields and turrets while my ships and strikecraft pluck away at them. Sometimes the SB survives.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I do leave some of the planets undefended for cost reasons. I don't expect them to deter anything, really. Just to slow the enemy down while I get my over-extended ass back from attack if I have no other options, heh.

If you anticipate that you might lose a planet but can't really defend it (perhaps because our fleet is 8 jumps away) then you can increase the planet's hit points ("infrastructure") and try to spread some culture around in the area. That way it will take the enemy longer to bomb it and it will be harder to colonize it. You might even keep a group of 20 attack Scouts around for killing the AI's siege frigates, which will make bombing your planet take even longer.

Vasari has an excellent level 1 civic research (2 research levels of it) which cuts the cost of purchasing planet hit points in half and the planets also recover hit points faster (I think). It's a great investment. I always chuckle when an opponent comes to bomb an undefended planet or clears out the structures in the gravity well, sees that the planet has 6000 hit points, shrugs his shoulders, and then leaves!

(Note that if you clear out a gravity well and you are going to move your fleet forward or elsewhere without bombing the planet, leave 3 or 4 light frigates behind to kill constructors so that your opponent cannot rebuild extractors and other structures there. Failure to do that is a huge mistake that I see often.)

 

[obidamnkenobi]

lotsa info...

Thank you good sir Mr.Snapper for some awesome info on this game!! With a occasionally demanding job, a house and a wife my game time is rarely more than 1-2 hours a few nights a week. So I think waiting for Rebellion might be a better deal. And like you said it might be easier to jump into MP then too, with more "n00b fools" around.. I'll admit it does sound a bit intimidating based on your description, there surely is a lot to learn and keep track of in this game! I think I jump around between different games a little too much instead of really diving deep into just a single one. Comes from having so little time I guess.

And if team vs AI games are mostly "invitation only" I'd probably not be able to try that much, I have zero friends (both IRL and virtual) that play strategy games, or any games at all really.

But, rebellion sounds like it's a ways off (almost a year?) and I don't mind giving Stardock $40 for this game so I might pick it up for the SP, or maybe catch it on a sale once. Maybe I'll even hop in and ruining someones day in MP a bit too before I get scared off All the strategies being discussed here does make it sounds awesome!

 

[zinfamous]

So, WS, do you normally play the Asari? What are the major advantages of that class?

I've only played TEC up to this point and figured I'd stick with that for a while until I figure I'm comfortable enough to win. I've only completed 1 game so far, heh.

bear in mind--I only have Vanilla. I'll probably purchase the expansions if they drop in price-I don't see myself spending 10 bucks on either of them right now.

One thing I've noticed very soon after starting a game with more than 1 AI--I set them to various conditions, aggressive, economic, turtle, whatever...but the economic group (also TEC) that I plan to ally with will also just attack on site, as will my guys. I've got them to at 25% favor by giving them some cash, and opened a trade network, but they still refuse to agree on cease fire.

should I assume that outright attacking people who favor you will have no consequences on favor--unless you have an active cease-fire or something?

bastards--I cleaned out a world of pirates and moved my colony ship in to settle, and the freaking other TEC group just shows up instantly with all these light frigates and starts attacking me after I had given them cash. what a bunch of punks.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

So, WS, do you normally play the Asari? What are the major advantages of that class?

I've been playing them as my primary race in the Diplomacy expansion. I played primarily Advent in Original and Entrenchment, sometimes playing Vasari. I don't have nearly as much experience as I would like with TEC. (I can't say that I can play them on the pro level.)

Vasari advantages:

• Can capture neutral extractors (where you can't colonize anything but there are resources) with scouts. This is a huge advantage. TEC and Advent need colonizer frigates.

• Have the best ammunition in the game in the form of Phase Missiles which have an up to 30% chance of bypassing shield mitigation (with research). All strikecraft, flak frigates, and long range frigates use phase missiles, so you can upgrade all of those with one research path.

• Excellent capital ships in the Evacuator (Colonize, Nanite Attack, Level 6 Planet Suck) and Skinatra (Scramble Bombers ability, Heal Hull, Replicate 3 ships at Level 6). The Evacuator (affectionately known as "The Egg") can solo-colonize planets with speed later on, especially if it gets up to Level 5 (level 3 Nanites).

• Long Range Frigate (Assailant) only requires 1 military lab.

• Good Civic research upgrades.

• Subverters. These are arguably the best support ships in the game. They can paralyze numerous enemy ships.

• Entrenchment/Diplomacy -- Most useful Starbase in the game. It can be used potently on offense because it can move. It can also potentially do more damage than other starbases and can be used to destroy them.

• Entrenchment/Diplomacy -- Can counter bomber spam with Phasic Trap ability on strikecraft hangers.

Vasari Disadvantages:

• Their ships are more expensive in terms of cost and fleet supply. You're probably not going to out-muscle an opponent by spamming out swarms of ships at low cost.

• Their trade port is a Level 4 civic research. Their culture center is a Level 3

• To use the Subverter, you need to do a Level 6 military research.

• They have the weakest scouts in terms of combat and they consume 3 fleet supply points and not 2. They're also a little more expensive. You really can't use them effectively (scout spam) to counter long range frigate spam like you could with Advent or TEC.

• Their Heavy Cruiser (Enforcer) takes up 12 supply points compared to TEC's and Advent's 10. It's probably better to just spam out Assailants and max out your phase missile research.

• Entrenchment/Diplomacy -- They don't have an anti-structure ship like TEC and Advent.

• Diplomacy v1.2 -- Their superweapon, the Kostura, has been severely neutered.

I've only played TEC up to this point and figured I'd stick with that for a while until I figure I'm comfortable enough to win. I've only completed 1 game so far, heh.

I think that's a good plan. Learn one race and then learn the others. Most of the concepts will apply the same way to the other races.

bear in mind--I only have Vanilla. I'll probably purchase the expansions if they drop in price-I don't see myself spending 10 bucks on either of them right now.

I've seen them go on sale as a package for $15 for both, but not real often.

One thing I've noticed very soon after starting a game with more than 1 AI--I set them to various conditions, aggressive, economic, turtle, whatever...but the economic group (also TEC) that I plan to ally with will also just attack on site, as will my guys. I've got them to at 25% favor by giving them some cash, and opened a trade network, but they still refuse to agree on cease fire.

should I assume that outright attacking people who favor you will have no consequences on favor--unless you have an active cease-fire or something?

bastards--I cleaned out a world of pirates and moved my colony ship in to settle, and the freaking other TEC group just shows up instantly with all these light frigates and starts attacking me after I had given them cash. what a bunch of punks.

I really don't know too much about how the AI functions since I only played it in single player for about two weeks back in early 2008. I can tell you that the entire purpose of the Diplomacy expansion was to completely overhaul your ability to influence and be influenced by the AI.

 

[zinfamous]

cool, awesome breakdown. I went ahead and started a game with Vasari and I'm digging the research trees, as well as the evacuator capital ship.
I made a devestator too--or whatever it is--the big heavy warship. I love the increase firepower and fighter disable abilities.

My only complaint, so far, is that credits are slow to come by early on, even when compared to TEC prior to both factions being able to build Trade colonies.

what would say are the primary research nodes to avoid? I'm guessing the "threaten pirates" tech is somewhat useless--either you turn off pirates or just pay them to harass the others.

I think I prefer the look of the Advent ships over all the others, though.

 

[Maximilian]

You could look on pirates as a blessing, some free experience for your capitol ships without having to go anywhere.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

My only complaint, so far, is that credits are slow to come by early on, even when compared to TEC prior to both factions being able to build Trade colonies.

If you're not playing with Quickstart on (Entrenchment/Diplomacy) one of the first things you'll want to do is to buy 100 crystal and upgrade your home terran's population to the maximum. Once it gets close to 280, you'll want 1 civic lab so that you can research the terran population upgrade to bring it up to 322.

As Vasari, try to own all of the neutral extractors. Make a bunch of scouts and try to control them all. That will really help your income. Once you have a bunch of extractors, build a 2nd civic lab and research the mineral extraction income increase. If you can afford it then make a 3rd and research the next 2 levels. What's nice about Vasari is that they can do both metal and crystal with the exact same research.

what would say are the primary research nodes to avoid? I'm guessing the "threaten pirates" tech is somewhat useless--either you turn off pirates or just pay them to harass the others.

I'd probably avoid that one. The Volcanic population increase research probably isn't worth it either unless you have, say, 6 Volcanic planets with high allegiance (unlikely). Sometimes I'll do it for the Ice, but that's just level 3.

I think I prefer the look of the Advent ships over all the others, though.

One of the reasons I preferred Vasari when I was a new guy was because of the look of their ships. You'll definitely want to learn how to play Advent, too. The computer does an awful job of playing Advent. But don't be fooled, Advent can become very powerful and troublesome in the hands of a human player.

 

[zinfamous]

If you're not playing with Quickstart on (Entrenchment/Diplomacy) one of the first things you'll want to do is to buy 100 crystal and upgrade your home terran's population to the maximum. Once it gets close to 280, you'll want 1 civic lab so that you can research the terran population upgrade to bring it up to 322.

As Vasari, try to own all of the neutral extractors. Make a bunch of scouts and try to control them all. That will really help your income. Once you have a bunch of extractors, build a 2nd civic lab and research the mineral extraction income increase. If you can afford it then make a 3rd and research the next 2 levels. What's nice about Vasari is that they can do both metal and crystal with the exact same research.



I'd probably avoid that one. The Volcanic population increase research probably isn't worth it either unless you have, say, 6 Volcanic planets with high allegiance (unlikely). Sometimes I'll do it for the Ice, but that's just level 3.



One of the reasons I preferred Vasari when I was a new guy was because of the look of their ships. You'll definitely want to learn how to play Advent, too. The computer does an awful job of playing Advent. But don't be fooled, Advent can become very powerful and troublesome in the hands of a human player.

haha, my side of the map, all I have are volcanic planets available for colonizing. initial terran, 1 desert, and then 6 volcanic all in my colonizing path (trying to control that side of the board and wipe out TEC).

and metal+crystal in one research spot is quite nice.

I'm getting the hang of this, I think. I guess it took me so long before, b/c I thought it was more of a directed, story-type game. I wasn't really paying attention, and so had no idea that each game is an open free-for-all more or less. I like to build up first, so I just wasn't used to the AI gang-raping me so fast after start, as I had expected a slower pace.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

I like to build up first, so I just wasn't used to the AI gang-raping me so fast after start, as I had expected a slower pace.

i prefer to be aggressive at the start. i have good results choosing to play the cap ship factory and and akkan (colonizer) before upgrading my home. try to scout 2 planets in every direction, and then go after the low-hanging fruit. i set up trade ports ASAP, then shift focus to the military.

my favorites:
"full power to drunk drive" and "i hear mumble mumble drinking problem"

 

[zinfamous]

yeah, the dialogue is pretty win in this.

I just built up a very large vasari fleet with 1 carrier, 2 of them egg things, and 2 destructors-that disable fighters and attack ships around them + all my support ships.

I managed to jump right on top of the main remaining Advent fleet (I had chased them across three planets), and my ships sent out the EMPs, or whatever they do. disabled everything. I took out their 3 capital ships and a shit load of drone ships without losing a single ship--not even a fighter, haha.

now I see why this game is fun

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Right now it looks like the price is $20 (regularly) on Impulse:

http://www.impulsedriven.com/SinsTrinity

If you have STEAM, please join the new Sins Online group which I created to help promote Sins and Ironclad Online at Steam. Come check it out:

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/SinsOnline

I also posted an epic 1v1 I played in last night where I had a totally boned start relative to the other player but was able to pull it out by using my knowledge of how to build a strong economy. (This is for the current version of Entrenchment, v1.051, not the Diplomacy expansion.)

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20644895/Epic+1v1+boned+start+for+winner+%28Entv1-051%29.record

 

[Gunbuster]

With this and Sword of the Stars II coming out I'm going to need more time for gaming.