Sink drain installation question

[Muse]

My double kitchen sink drain system went to pieces this week (talk about some March madness!). Very old house and the installation was metal that had corroded to the point where it was ready to break in several places. Oddly, it was one of the metal nuts that attach to the strainer that broke completely through and at least one of the sinks' water came down and... we won't talk about the mess. Taking apart the system, a couple pieces of the metal tubing broke, they were super weak.

OK, so I start looking for replacement parts and I go to a big hardware store I have patronized for decades and they sell me some parts ... metal! I take that home and encounter a video that convinces me to scrap the metal system and go white plastic. So I buy a complete set of that at a different hardware store (for 1/3 the price of the metal parts I just bought!) and will eventually return the expensive metal parts when I get back in that neighborhood.

I've almost got the installation done but have one question: A white plastic piece goes from the J trap into the steel wall stub-out. I evidently have to use a steel nut at that point, according to the video. I'm wondering what else goes there to complete the seal. I have some of those beveled plastic washers that fit tightly over the plastic tubing (didn't come with the kit, I just have them), I could use one of those. There's a plastic beveled washer that came with the J trap kit that's confusing me. I don't know what it's for -- it has a hole that's too small for the plastic tubing!!! Anyway, I guess one of the "standard" beveled plastic (look to be nylon) washers should make some kind of seal at the stub-out. Should I use thread tape or pipe dope as well?

 

[Greenman]

Where the trap connects to the steel pipe in the wall, that's generally a rubber washer. Sometimes the beveled plastic will work, but not always. The extra beveled washer is for an 1 1/4" tail piece on the sink, they supply both in the package so it will work with either size tail piece. Toss it, you don't need it.

 

[Muse]

I got the drain system under there nice and tight (using the beveled nylon washer at the connection to the stub-out) and don't think it's leaking but there is a leak problem under there. It is evidently from one of the two strainers. They are basically in three pieces I think. There's the top piece, a bottom piece that screws into the top piece and there's a black rubber washer between them. Well, maybe more to it, but I think the leak (which is very slow) I think is from an improper seal with the big black washer. Maybe the other two pieces (the washer is sandwiched between them) weren't tightened together sufficiently. I'm thinking there are two different ways I can stop the leak:

1. Take the drain system apart, put a new washer in there and tighten it all together, reassemble the drain system. I think my tool lending library has the wrench needed to loosen/tighten it all together, IIRC.

2. Way easier would be to caulk. I have some high quality white elastomerized caulk from the garage job I did last summer/fall. I'm thinking that will stop the slow leak. There's little pressure there, the most it gets is if the sink is full of water, which happens, but even then there's not much pressure.

 

[Greenman]

I got the drain system under there nice and tight (using the beveled nylon washer at the connection to the stub-out) and don't think it's leaking but there is a leak problem under there. It is evidently from one of the two strainers. They are basically in three pieces I think. There's the top piece, a bottom piece that screws into the top piece and there's a black rubber washer between them. Well, maybe more to it, but I think the leak (which is very slow) I think is from an improper seal with the big black washer. Maybe the other two pieces (the washer is sandwiched between them) weren't tightened together sufficiently. I'm thinking there are two different ways I can stop the leak:

1. Take the drain system apart, put a new washer in there and tighten it all together, reassemble the drain system. I think my tool lending library has the wrench needed to loosen/tighten it all together, IIRC.

2. Way easier would be to caulk. I have some high quality white elastomerized caulk from the garage job I did last summer/fall. I'm thinking that will stop the slow leak. There's little pressure there, the most it gets is if the sink is full of water, which happens, but even then there's not much pressure.

Please don't use caulking. The next guy who comes along to fix it after it fails will curse your hemorrhoids for an hour as he try's to peel that crap off. Pull out the basket strainer (that's the part you can see when you look in the sink) clean it up, install a new gasket and tighten it down. There should also be thin cardboard ring under the gasket, that keeps the nut from bunching up the rubber gasket. The leak could also be at the nut and gasket that connect the drain to the basket strainer, that's a common problem as well.

 

[Micrornd]

1. Take the drain system apart, put a new washer in there and tighten it all together, reassemble the drain system. I think my tool lending library has the wrench needed to loosen/tighten it all together, IIRC.

You said above that the new pieces were plastic.
These should only need to be tightened by hand, not with a wrench.
Remember this is all gravity feed, wrenches are used on pressure feeds.
If you need a wrench to stop assembly from leaking, then they are one of the following -
1. Not installed properly (too short, too long, etc.)
2. Not aligned properly
3. Cross-threaded
4. Cracked or broken
5. No plumber's putty on the top of the sink side of the tail spout

 

[Muse]

Could you explain (5.) there? Plumber's putty where? I think the big round black rubber washer is where water is getting in slow. Maybe not enough force. Is there supposed to be plumber's putty in that joint?
- -
Gotta confess, I used a lot of force, even a strap wrench a few times, but I think they are just what you'd call very hand tight right now. But the leak isn't coming from the plastic drain system, it's from the wide strainer on the left side (there are strainers in left and right sinks). So, the leak was very probably there all along, I just didn't notice it. No big hurry to fix it, therefore, but I will soon. It's warming up now. Under there it's still rather moist because a whole sink full of water fell when the drain system failed 6 days ago. I want things to dry out completely before I do any more under there. For one thing, there's some bad wood and I want it to dry out before I cover it with 3/8" ply. To rip out the bad wood would be a big job, have to remove the sink, the tile... just a big job I don't want to tackle. It will all look and function fine covered with 3/8" ply, which I will paint.

 

[jmagg]

You need to surround the strainer flange where it meets the sink on top, with a 3/8 inch bead of plumbers putty. The rubber and paper large washers go under the sink.

 

[Muse]

You need to surround the strainer flange where it meets the sink on top, with a 3/8 inch bead of plumbers putty. The rubber and paper large washers go under the sink.

I'll see if I can get the wrench to take it apart. Would I need to replace the rubber washer? I'll shop for that and the paper one, which I'm sure it comes with. Wonder, though, if a bead of caulk on the underside would stop the slow leak. It's only leaking like a teaspoon or two of water a day.

Please don't use caulking. The next guy who comes along to fix it after it fails will curse your hemorrhoids for an hour as he try's to peel that crap off. Pull out the basket strainer (that's the part you can see when you look in the sink) clean it up, install a new gasket and tighten it down. There should also be thin cardboard ring under the gasket, that keeps the nut from bunching up the rubber gasket. The leak could also be at the nut and gasket that connect the drain to the basket strainer, that's a common problem as well.

OK, thanks!!

I'm pretty sure that the leak is on the outside edge, i.e. at the rubber gasket because I could feel wetness there, see a drop of water. The leak is very slow but I don't want any leak in there.

 

[jmagg]

Caulking under the sink will just leave dirty dish water behind the caulk and wont hold very long. Best to do it right and put the putty under the flange on top. I doubt you'll need a new rubber washer and if the paper one is destroyed, you can make one out of a shoe box. Some fiberglass sinks and tubs allow silicone under the flange replacing the putty, but thats a mess and putty is inexpensive.

 

[Muse]

Caulking under the sink will just leave dirty dish water behind the caulk and wont hold very long. Best to do it right and put the putty under the flange on top. I doubt you'll need a new rubber washer and if the paper one is destroyed, you can make one out of a shoe box. Some fiberglass sinks and tubs allow silicone under the flange replacing the putty, but thats a mess and putty is inexpensive.

Thanks. My sink is porcelain. The porcelain shows some smallish cracks but I've never seen indications that the cracks cause leaking. Don't know how it cracked, maybe someone dumped cast iron pans in it. There's similar cracking in my bathroom's porcelain bathtub, which is under the shower. Dunno, maybe an earthquake caused that stuff?

I have plumber's putty, two containers. I'm going to the Berkeley tool lending library this afternoon (a 1-2 minute bike ride, they open today at noon) and ask to borrow the tool to take apart and reassemble the strainer assembly.

IIRC, I did take apart and reassemble at least one of the strainer assemblies in the kitchen sink some years ago. Maybe I didn't put in enough plumber's putty. I guess, based on what I see above in this thread, I'll want to make a ~3/8" round worm of plumber's putty to lay down on the porcelain when I place the strainer into the sink (after carefully cleaning and drying the sink around there).

 

[jmagg]

I force the putty under the basket flange tight to the inside then drop it in. Dont spare the putty, it'll displace around the edge when you tighten it down, then cut it away tight to basket.

 

[Muse]

I force the putty under the basket flange tight to the inside then drop it in. Dont spare the putty, it'll displace around the edge when you tighten it down, then cut it away tight to basket.

Guy at Tool Lending Library in town, when I went there yesterday to borrow the wrench to remove/replace the basket suggested that I could try just tightening it and see if that stops the leak. What do you make of that?

 

[jmagg]

You dont really need a tool. Have someone hold it from the top with a screwdriver inside and turn it off by hand on the bottom. Do it right and it wont plague you in the future.

 

[Muse]

You dont really need a tool. Have someone hold it from the top with a screwdriver inside and turn it off by hand on the bottom. Do it right and it wont plague you in the future.

Well, I live alone and don't have help. I've managed singlehandedly to do many things unimaginable, and should be up to this too. I have the underside tool, they also gave me a tool that holds the assembly from above although they said I should have someone hold that steady with a screwdriver or such inserted through it horizontally. Or, he said, I could hold that myself with my other hand.

Well, the reason i wanted to try just tightening it is that way I won't need to buy another rubber washer, assuming the one in there isn't OK. I'm pretty sure if I installed this thing originally, I had plumber's putty in there, but the seal hasn't held up somehow. Will get after it today. I think I need to disassemble the drain system even to try tightening up on the washer.

 

[jmagg]

I guess I assumed that you removed the basket and reinstalled without putty. Anyway, the putty on top is all you need until the first connection to the bottom of the basket strainer. The rubber washer doesn't hold back water.

 

[Muse]

Had devil of a time removing the locknut on the strainer basket. Used the removal tools (single handedly, which is a considerable challenge, but won't get into that ATM). There are nubs on the aluminum locknut that allow the removal tool to grab it and two of those just sheared off before I got it unstuck. When nub shears off, the tool loses purchase and whamo, my right hand got whacked (blood!). Luckily, nothing broken, just soar fingers (as long as I don't get an infection!).

Went back to tool lending library with pictures and the guy suggested borrowing their biggest channel lock pliers and trying that, and that worked. Monster channel lock! So, now have it apart. There was a lot of teflon tape in there and it was tough to remove it all but with a pocket knife, wire brushes and lots of patience, I got things cleaned up. All the plumbers putty that had been in there had turned to wet mush.

Problem is the lock nut is fucked up.. It's too loose to go on the threads of the steel basket, it will actually slide up instead of grabbing the threads if angled correctly! Also, it's fairly corroded in places. Could chance putting tape in there, but even if got on, it wouldn't go flush, it's uneven. Figure I need another locknut. The rubber washer seems OK after cleanup. Gonna shop for a locknut that fits, can take the basket with me to store(s). Hope to get this done today, living without a kitchen sink is the pits.

 

[pcgeek11]

Probably cheaper / easier to get a new drain basket assembly.

 

[Muse]

Probably cheaper / easier to get a new drain basket assembly.

Well, maybe not cheaper but I decided to get not one but two new drain basket assemblies. At first I decided to just get the locknut but outside the store decided to go back and look at the full monty. Thing is, my baskets don't match, the other one looks to be plated brass (says 'STERLING' on the rim where the plating hasn't worn off). Plus, this way I don't have to cut a cardboard washer, the locknut didn't come with one.

I figured, why not just get two new assemblies and then they'll be all new, all matched, with fresh putty in there? Extra work, have to take the locknut off the other, clean up, but WTH. I'm at it right now! I've had my plumber's putty for a few years, hopefully it doesn't go bad.

Uh, let me tell you, it's a good idea to wear a good thick pair of leather gloves when you take off those locknuts. Even if the nub doesn't break off, the wrench is apt to slip off the nut and you can bang up your hands something fierce without gloves. My sore right hand stands testament. I'm using gloves now as I work on removing the other basket!

 

[Muse]

Whoa! Having major difficulties getting the other basket out. The locknut is frozen tight to the basket. The tool used to hold the basket, keep it from rotating just ripped out the portion at the bottom, the X. So, I threaded a nut onto the smaller diameter threads at the bottom of the basket and cinched it up tight and put a pipe wrench on it, but even with that (and jammed up against the side of the cabinet), I keep cranking on the locknut with the giant channel locks and I haven't been able to break loose the locknut. I may have to try to cut it off somehow. I going to survey the youtube videos on removing a strainer basket that's stuck!!!

 

[Muse]

I'm going to use my old A/C variable speed hand drill with a 2.5" diameter grinding wheel on shaft to grind through the locknut. Once through I think I should be able to pry it loose with a large bladed screwdriver. I watched a few videos on this obviously common problem. They didn't appeal to me... recipro saw, hacksaw, various other methods. I like mine. Could dremel it too, but I'm most confident in this idea.

Edit: That didn't work out, was taking an eternity and I stopped (it's hard work). So, I take out my dremel, change accessories and the damn thing (Black & Decker, wouldn't you know), wouldn't turn on. Dead?! Well, I go back to the tool lending library and borrow an AC Dremel (Brand: Dremel 4000). It came with some accessories and included was a circular hacksaw type thing, about 1/4-3/8 inch in diameter. It's a wheel whose axis is that of the tool, spins. Man, that cut right through the locknut in less than 2 minutes! Came right off with a bit of prying with a screwdriver! I think I'm golden now. Gonna buy me a new dremel, don't know what brand, but NOT Black and Decker! Uh, and I'm going to find that accessory! Not something I'd use a lot, but I can't think of another way to get that locknut off with any kind of ease. I have a couple of oscillating tools I bought over the summer but haven't gotten into them yet. Have to watch some videos, I guess.

 

[pcgeek11]

Looks like you are going in the right direction. Just be careful and don't do any more injuries to yourself.

 

[Muse]

Looks like you are going in the right direction. Just be careful and don't do any more injuries to yourself.

My thumb looks like it's healing fine, no infection, it was a tiny cut, the soreness seems to be a small contusion. I'm using my other thumb on my spacebar meantime!!!

 

[Greenman]

Get new plumbers putty. The stuff dries out and gets really tough to work with with. When you tighten the new basket strainers, do it slowly.
If you didn't buy good quality basket strainers return them and get good ones.

 

[Muse]

Get new plumbers putty. The stuff dries out and gets really tough to work with with. When you tighten the new basket strainers, do it slowly.
If you didn't buy good quality basket strainers return them and get good ones.

Interesting post. Wish I'd seen it sooner. I had two small containers of plumber's putty. One was way too hard, the other, well, probably harder than new, but I could form it OK especially after working it a little.

Those new baskets, they look OK, but comparing them to the first one I took out (the steel one, not the brass one) I could see that the metal wasn't as thick, a tip off that it is cheap stuff. Is stamped 'TAIWAN" but it's the stuff they stock at Ace Hardware under their proprietary label, Master Plumber, so you don't expect it to be great. They were $6.99 each for a complete strainer set.

I got it all together and it was leak free for an hour or two and then I saw a big drop under the left basket (same one as the original trouble basket, and seemingly from the same place, the top seal at the rubber washer). So, I have to conclude that I didn't put in enough putty. My strand was around 3/8", maybe was a little less in some place I think. Some was forced out on tightening up, but not much and in some places I didn't see any squeeze out and had to hope there was enough... guess not! I have to take the left one apart today, clean it up, repack it with plumber's putty, reassemble the whole thing and hope there's no leak this time. Think I'll buy fresh putty first, though.

How tight do I want to tighten the lock nut on the new strainers?

 

[Greenman]

Interesting post. Wish I'd seen it sooner. I had two small containers of plumber's putty. One was way too hard, the other, well, probably harder than new, but I could form it OK especially after working it a little.

Those new baskets, they look OK, but comparing them to the first one I took out (the steel one, not the brass one) I could see that the metal wasn't as thick, a tip off that it is cheap stuff. Is stamped 'TAIWAN" but it's the stuff they stock at Ace Hardware under their proprietary label (Master Mechanic?), so you don't expect it to be great. They were $6.99 each for a complete strainer set.

I got it all together and it was leak free for an hour or two and then I saw a big drop under the left basket (same one as the original trouble basket, and seemingly from the same place, the top seal at the rubber washer). So, I have to conclude that I didn't put in enough putty. My strand was around 3/8", maybe was a little less in some place I think. Some was forced out on tightening up, but not much and in some places I didn't see any squeeze out and had to hope there was enough... guess not! I have to take the left one apart today, clean it up, repack it with plumber's putty, reassemble the whole thing and hope there's no leak this time. Think I'll buy fresh putty first, though.

How tight do I want to tighten the lock nut on the new strainers?

Seven bucks is about as cheap as they get. The builders grade is around 15 to 20.
When you tighten the nut on the strainer you have to do it slowly so the excess putty can come out around the lip of the basket. I let the strainer rotate a little as I tighten the nut as that helps the excess putty squeeze out. The nut should be pretty snug when your're done.