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Since 2006, Michigan Police have received 1,795 M16s,696 M14s and 9 grenade launchers

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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Well, many most estimates place the number of AR15 rifles in civilian hands at between 2-3 million. That is not counting AKs, HKs, and numerous other assault type weapons. Something like 310 million guns in the US. If I was a police officer you can bet that I would want as much firepower as possible.......

What was the stat I heard the other day? That an officer is killed in the line of duty approximately every 58 hours. An average 58,261 assaults against law enforcement each year. You don't see those stats on CNN......
Except those cops aren't being killed by AR15s.

How many cops are killed each year by assault rifles?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
What conjecture? Fact: About half of all murders are committed with a hand gun. Fact: Sporting rifle (assault rifle) sales increased by 27% from 2007 to 2011. The number of

Does it really matter how many times?

North Hollywood Shootout. Had the responding officers had access to something beyond a 9mm, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.


Officers need effective tools. I am not advocating they carry them with them at all times, but having them in the trunk in the event the need arises, isn't a bad thing.
Yes it matters how many times.

You and some of the other gullible idiots around here are claiming that the police need to be heavily armed because they're going up against heavily armed criminals.

Surely you have some facts to back this claim up. Where in the US are cops being slaughtered by these heavily armed citizens?

Edit: As for the Hollywood shootout, it wouldn't have been as bad as... Nobody except the criminals being killed? Sounds like that worked out pretty well.
 
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smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
86
Yes it matters how many times.

You and some of the other gullible idiots around here are claiming that the police need to be heavily armed because they're going up against heavily armed criminals.

Surely you have some facts to back this claim up. Where in the US are cops being slaughtered by these heavily armed citizens?

Edit: As for the Hollywood shootout, it wouldn't have been as bad as... Nobody except the criminals being killed? Sounds like that worked out pretty well.
Fact: around 19% of police officers killed by gunfire (which accounts for 92% of their deaths on duty) are from assault rifles.


How is that?

Also, every couple of years, the military does a study (or rather, pays a lot of money for a study to be done) on types of firepower being used by criminals on bases. They then adjust their equipment to match if it is found to be higher than they are using. These are for based in the US. And, guess what? Every car must have at least one person qualified with an M16 or M4 and it be in the car (trunk).
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Fact: around 19% of police officers killed by gunfire (which accounts for 92% of their deaths on duty) are from assault rifles.


How is that?

Also, every couple of years, the military does a study (or rather, pays a lot of money for a study to be done) on types of firepower being used by criminals on bases. They then adjust their equipment to match if it is found to be higher than they are using. These are for based in the US. And, guess what? Every car must have at least one person qualified with an M16 or M4 and it be in the car (trunk).
Link to study, please. I can't corroborate your 19% figure, and it doesn't pass the smell test.

And even if it is that high, which I doubt, given your previous figure of a cop dying every 58 hours, that means only ~150 cops die per year. Which means that 30 cops are killed every year by an assault rifle. Again, a dubious number.

So you believe that by having armored vehicles and grenade launchers that you can drastically lower that 30 count?
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,302
0
76
Link to study, please. I can't corroborate your 19% figure, and it doesn't pass the smell test.

And even if it is that high, which I doubt, given your previous figure of a cop dying every 58 hours, that means only ~150 cops die per year. Which means that 30 cops are killed every year by an assault rifle. Again, a dubious number.

So you believe that by having armored vehicles and grenade launchers that you can drastically lower that 30 count?
And how many innocent civilians are killed each year by policemen with M16s? How about run over with armored personal carriers? I bet that number is absolutely miniscule......
I think the question should be why are you guys so absolutely petrified of law enforcement? Without them, we would have anarchy.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
86
Link to study, please. I can't corroborate your 19% figure, and it doesn't pass the smell test.

And even if it is that high, which I doubt, given your previous figure of a cop dying every 58 hours, that means only ~150 cops die per year. Which means that 30 cops are killed every year by an assault rifle. Again, a dubious number.

So you believe that by having armored vehicles and grenade launchers that you can drastically lower that 30 count?
I didn't give the figure of a every 58 hours. The numbers were taken from http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jan/29/dianne-feinstein/dianne-feinstein-says-one-five-law-enforcement-off/ and I can't download the source report due to work blocking downloading from certain hosts.

And, 150 is high. "And this wasn’t a fluke. Calculations published in 2003 by the center showed that during the years 1998 through 2001, at least 41 of the 211 law enforcement officers killed by guns were killed by assault weapons -- 19.4 percent."


Furthermore, I wasn't supporting armored vehicles or grenade launchers. I specifically stated grenade launchers were excessive. However, AR-15s aren't.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
You're correct, that was someone else who said every 58 hours. So the real figure is actually even lower.

Wow.

So about 10 cops are killed each year by assault rifles.

And so the theory is that we need to arm every podunk town in the country with military gear to stop that.

Fail.

How many innocent people, not even talking about criminals, have been executed by cops itching to use play soldier?

http://www.cato.org/raidmap
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
86
You're correct, that was someone else who said every 58 hours. So the real figure is actually even lower.

Wow.

So about 10 cops are killed each year by assault rifles.

And so the theory is that we need to arm every podunk town in the country with military gear to stop that.

Fail.

How many innocent people, not even talking about criminals, have been executed by cops itching to use play soldier?

http://www.cato.org/raidmap
Death of an innocent is far less than officers killed by assault rifles. 2014 - 2, 2013 - 0, 2012 - 0, 2011 - 5.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
The FBI, which maintains the national crime database, takes the position that when a cop kills a civilian, its not a crime. Consequently, it doesn't track that information...

So, the situation is that the Federal Government is giving local law enforcement groups hundreds of millions of dollars in war fighting equipment. But no one is tracking what local law enforcement does with that war fighting equipment.

Anyone think that that is going to end well?

In some jurisdictions, the Judicial System has compelled law enforcement to share those statistics. If you're a civilian, the results aren't pretty.
Reason.com
"In the only year in which the NYT article and the Bureau of Justice Statistics report overlap, 2008, law enforcement killed roughly 10 times the number of people during arrests (404) than officers killed."
In terms of body count, its pretty clear that the police are way, way ahead of the civilians.

In fact when it comes to killing civilians, the police are also way, way ahead of the terrorists.

Mint Press
Americans are eight times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist, estimates a Washington’s Blog report based on official statistical data.

Americans Killed by Cops Now Outnumber Americans Killed in Iraq War


Its a tragedy when a LE Officer gets killed. But its also a tragedy when a civilian gets killed.

And this former MP doesn't think that giving more war fighting equipment to untrained local law enforcement units is a solution... Though, it likely will help them increase their body count...

Uno
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,031
13
81
“We think this misnomer — ‘we’re being too military’ — is false, given the threats ever present in today’s society,” said Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard. “These pieces of equipment are something we hope we never have to use … but hope is not a strategy in our world. Sometimes, I think, people don’t understand the reality of today’s world.”
Huh. It's sad that the people with the power are the ones with the misperception of the reality of today's world.





FBI's own graph:

 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
86
Huh. It's sad that the people with the power are the ones with the misperception of the reality of today's world.





FBI's own graph:

So, since the crash of the economy, people are poorer and cops are more militarized, yet crime is lower. Is that due to cops being, in fact, more militarized? It certainly isn't because people are more poor and desperate.
 

DLeRium

Lifer
Feb 19, 2001
20,158
20
81
9 grenade launchers spread out the entire state of Michigan. Oh no! And it's obvious they're not lobbing grenades at houses like you do in video games to "take out the guard tower." It's most likely for tear gas or firing stun grenades when dealing with riots.

Michigan also has about 18,000 officers total, so 1800 M16s is only 10%. It's not like we see cop walking around regularly with M16s.

I think the idea here is the US military is phasing out equipment, so state agencies can get those weapons and equipment for cheap. Does it make more sense to destroy them all and then hire a weapons manufacturer to create a "Police approved" weapon that people won't find as "militarized" for several billion just to issue to the 18,000 police officers in Michigan?
 
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Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
28,270
3,720
126
9 grenade launchers spread out the entire state of Michigan. Oh no! And it's obvious they're not lobbing grenades at houses like you do in video games to "take out the guard tower." It's most likely for tear gas or firing stun grenades when dealing with riots.

Michigan also has about 18,000 officers total, so 1800 M16s is only 10%. It's not like we see cop walking around regularly with M16s.

I think the idea here is the US military is phasing out equipment, so state agencies can get those weapons and equipment for cheap. Does it make more sense to destroy them all and then hire a weapons manufacturer to create a "Police approved" weapon that people won't find as "militarized" for several billion just to issue to the 18,000 police officers in Michigan?
the idea isn't bad in theory - police get the benefit of military assets, rather than them being destroyed. i read one article that said MRAPs were used for flood rescues, since they can traverse water better than basically all other police vehicles (including the armored trucks that are more typical).

so that sort of thing makes sense.

the problem is when you bring out an MRAP and a police for that looks like it's in the center of fallujah for what is a civilian protest, and the police forces' rifles are pointed at the civilians.

THAT is the problem with 1033. the road to hell is paved with good intentions....
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,302
0
76
the idea isn't bad in theory - police get the benefit of military assets, rather than them being destroyed. i read one article that said MRAPs were used for flood rescues, since they can traverse water better than basically all other police vehicles (including the armored trucks that are more typical).

so that sort of thing makes sense.

the problem is when you bring out an MRAP and a police for that looks like it's in the center of fallujah for what is a civilian protest, and the police forces' rifles are pointed at the civilians.

THAT is the problem with 1033. the road to hell is paved with good intentions....

I generally agree with your sentiments, but that 'civilian' protest also included shootings, looting, firebombs and burned out buildings. Not really too 'civil' if you ask me......
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Huh. It's sad that the people with the power are the ones with the misperception of the reality of today's world.





FBI's own graph:

Only through the militarization of police, along with increased no-knock warrants and the latitude provided by the Patriot Act have we managed to drive crime down over the past few years.
 

master_shake_

Diamond Member
May 22, 2012
6,430
291
121
hey!

you know who doesn't need a grenade launcher?

a cop.

grenades are for a mass of casualties so unless they are fighting "terrorists" (which by definition is everyone apparently...)

you don't need one.
 
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Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,302
0
76
hey!

you know who doesn't need a grenade launcher?

a cop.

grenades are for a mass of casualties so unless they are fighting "terrorists" (which by definition is everyone apparently...)

you don't need one.
I am sure that the grenade launchers are for tear gas or nonlethal ammo, not high explosives......
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
86
M14 is superior.



:colbert:
Wrong on all accounts!

But, I did read some garbage against assault rifles stating they were bad for home defense. Specific reasons being "inaccurate" and "unwieldy".

I am sure that the grenade launchers are for tear gas or nonlethal ammo, not high explosives......
I assumed that as well, and I am still against them. I used to know a guy that was a retired Army armorer. He spent quite a few years in Korea in the 80s goofing around with weapons all day. He could put a grenade from an M203 into a 55 gallon drum at ~50 yards. I watched him do this 9/10 times in his back yard. I don't trust the average police or SWAT officer has the proficiency to do that though. I am against them using grenade launchers simply because I don't believe they could use them effectively.
 

mizzou

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2008
9,734
53
91
You're correct, that was someone else who said every 58 hours. So the real figure is actually even lower.

Wow.

So about 10 cops are killed each year by assault rifles.

And so the theory is that we need to arm every podunk town in the country with military gear to stop that.

Fail.

How many innocent people, not even talking about criminals, have been executed by cops itching to use play soldier?

http://www.cato.org/raidmap


so what do you want to see police using and how they perform?
 

mizzou

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2008
9,734
53
91
Only through the militarization of police, along with increased no-knock warrants and the latitude provided by the Patriot Act have we managed to drive crime down over the past few years.
police tactics have come a loooong way since 70s amd 80s. cops from then are some of the meanest most civil rights abusing people i ever met, also lazy as shit on the legal end. nowadays, one video goes up of a questionablr arrest or one dept. has a bearcat and hoooollllly shit police are out of control!
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
460
126
Wrong on all accounts!

But, I did read some garbage against assault rifles stating they were bad for home defense. Specific reasons being "inaccurate" and "unwieldy".

I assumed that as well, and I am still against them. I used to know a guy that was a retired Army armorer. He spent quite a few years in Korea in the 80s goofing around with weapons all day. He could put a grenade from an M203 into a 55 gallon drum at ~50 yards. I watched him do this 9/10 times in his back yard. I don't trust the average police or SWAT officer has the proficiency to do that though. I am against them using grenade launchers simply because I don't believe they could use them effectively.
There is something to be said for the ability to put a tear gas grenade through a window from a relatively safe distance. The flip side is the danger to the public - even discounting children such as the Atlanta toddler whose face was blown apart by a flash bang, an M79 round will damn near take an adult's head off from kinetic energy at close range. Catch a grenade in the temple from ten meters and you aren't going to care that it's just CS. There's a reason civilian grenade rifles are lower velocity and it's not just so they won't look as cool as military grenade rifles.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
86
There is something to be said for the ability to put a tear gas grenade through a window from a relatively safe distance. The flip side is the danger to the public - even discounting children such as the Atlanta toddler whose face was blown apart by a flash bang, an M79 round will damn near take an adult's head off from kinetic energy at close range. Catch a grenade in the temple from ten meters and you aren't going to care that it's just CS. There's a reason civilian grenade rifles are lower velocity and it's not just so they won't look as cool as military grenade rifles.
I understand the need for one, and due to the actual dangers of them (as you stated), I don't see police having the proper training to stay proficient in using it.

I am unsure how often police are required to "qualify" or show proficiency on the weapons they are authorized to use. In the military, it was once a year for most people as well as before any deployment. This really only consisted of a two day training: half day was weapon safety with what we were using (either M9 or M16/M4) and the next half sighting the weapon and shooting targets. There were minimum requirements to be able to carry that weapon. Having to do this with more than their service pistol would add extra training (and therefore money), especially if they don't readily have the facilities to shoot a grenade launcher.
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
76
police tactics have come a loooong way since 70s amd 80s. cops from then are some of the meanest most civil rights abusing people i ever met, also lazy as shit on the legal end. nowadays, one video goes up of a questionablr arrest or one dept. has a bearcat and hoooollllly shit police are out of control!
Yes they sure have come a long way, no-knock warrants were nearly non-existent back then now they are one of the more popular ways to terrorize citizens.
 

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