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Since 2006, Michigan Police have received 1,795 M16s,696 M14s and 9 grenade launchers

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
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Detroit Free Press
...the growing militarization of local police is raising alarms across the country. Civil rights advocates, law enforcement experts and politicians from both parties are questioning the proliferation of “warrior cops” — local police arrayed in SWAT team gear and camouflage, using equipment once seen only in combat to patrol the streets of America’s cities, suburbs and small towns...

A report released this summer by the American Civil Liberties Union found that police departments nationwide are increasingly using military tactics and weapons for such routine matters as serving search warrants, sometimes with deadly and tragic results.

“We found through our investigation the use of paramilitary weapons and tactics causes serious problems for undermining public confidence,” said Kara Dansky, senior counsel for the ACLU and the author of the report, which looked at 800 SWAT raids by law enforcement in 20 states and the agencies’ acquisition of military equipment.

“Overly militarized police view people in the community as the enemy,” Dansky said...

“We think this misnomer — ‘we’re being too military’ — is false, given the threats ever present in today’s society,” said Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard. “These pieces of equipment are something we hope we never have to use … but hope is not a strategy in our world. Sometimes, I think, people don’t understand the reality of today’s world.”
The reality of today's world is that the mission of the police is no longer to "serve and protect."

The mission of the police is to be warriors executing the War on Drugs, the War on Terror, the War on Whatever... And as Bruce Schneier has articulated:
To the military, we (civilians) are a population to be subdued. Wars can temporarily override the Constitution... we see that attitude in the war on terror. Because it's a war, we can arrest and imprison Americans indefinitely without charges. We can eavesdrop on the communications of all Americans without probable cause. We can assassinate American citizens without due process. We can have secret courts issuing secret rulings about secret laws. The militarization of the police is just one aspect of an increasing militarization of government.
So, who is the enemy?

Uno
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
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I heard about that story before but I didn't realize it stemmed from something this trivial.........

article said:
In the raid that injured Bou, officers were trying to find his nephew, who was suspected of making a $50 drug sale, the ACLU said.
The rest of the article is equally depressing in the additional details, I didn't realize the nephew didn't live there, or that the family had a caravan in the drive way loaded with baby car seats or the play pins in view of windows..... just a whole disgusting episode.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
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Habersham County officials say they do not plan to pay for the medical expenses of a toddler seriously injured during a police raid.
Bounkham Phonesavah, affectionately known as "Baby Boo Boo," spent weeks in a burn unit after a SWAT team's flash grenade exploded near his face. The toddler was just 19-months-old and asleep in the early morning hours of May 28. SWAT officers threw the device into his home while executing a search warrant for a drug suspect...

The Phonesavahs' attorney also says an independent investigation showed authorities used faulty information to get a search warrant.

In June, Habersham County's sheriff said a confidential informant told them he had bought drugs at the home. But they didn't think any children lived there.

The SWAT team did not find the person it was looking for in the home.
Looking for someone who isn't there, SWAT Team will burn your child's face with an explosive device. And then, refuse to take responsibility, apologize, or even pay for the child's hospital expenses.

Then again, SWAT isn't here to serve or to protect.

They are warriors in the failing drug war.

And in war, civilians are collateral damage.

Uno
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,743
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Hey that incident was the parents' fault, not the cops. Just ask Policeone. Those guys are pretty open minded and totally not evil. If the parents knowingly (or unknowingly) stay the night at the house of someone who may be selling drugs then throwing nades at the face of babies is moral and good.

By the way, this case was yet another instance where police responed by attacking the victim's suffering loved ones. I'm beginning to think this is SOP. Apparently the mother of this child has been judged a "scumbag".
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,743
417
136
Hey that incident was the parents' fault, not the cops. Just ask Policeone. Those guys are pretty open minded and totally not evil. If the parents knowingly (or unknowingly) stay the night at the house of someone who may be selling drugs then throwing nades at the face of babies is moral and good.

By the way, this case was yet another instance where police responed by attacking the victim's suffering loved ones. I'm beginning to think this is SOP. Apparently the mother of this child has been judged a "scumbag".
I forgot to mention that she was also judged a "lowlife piece of shit", "ultimate lowlife", and not really a mom, but merely an "egg donor".
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,743
417
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This is a question I ask out of ignorance: what does a police officer need with a grenade launcher? Is there some legitimate law enforcement use for these? Maybe versions of smoke/teargas/flash-bang grenades can be fired by these?
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
63,063
16,554
136
Now I want a grenade launcher. :mad:



Okay, I've always wanted a grenade launcher but now doubly so.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
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This is a question I ask out of ignorance: what does a police officer need with a grenade launcher? Is there some legitimate law enforcement use for these? Maybe versions of smoke/teargas/flash-bang grenades can be fired by these?
I assume that's what they're being used for; I have to hope they don't actually have fragmentation/HE (or whatever they're called) rounds... I think they can be used for non-lethal (rubber/beanbag type things) rounds too although I don't know if that's what they're being used for.
 

cyclohexane

Platinum Member
Feb 12, 2005
2,837
19
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Vicious cycle. More citizens are armed to the teeth, more police get grenade launchers. Profit? (For arms dealers)
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0

M79 Grenade Launcher is a nice piece.

Eleven and a half inch aluminum barrel. Single shot, breaks like a shotgun. High Explosive (HE) round with a range between 30 and 300 meters.(Centrifugal fuse takes 30 meters to arm.)

Easy to clean. Relatively light. Doesn't make a loud noise. Just goes "Thump." Though, the 40mm rounds are relatively heavy.

For close work, there is also a buckshot round. I understand that there were also a variety of non lethal rounds; though, I've only fired the HE round.

Uno
Sentry Dog Handler
US Army, 69-71
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net

M79 Grenade Launcher is a nice piece.

Eleven and a half inch aluminum barrel. Single shot, breaks like a shotgun. High Explosive (HE) round with a range between 30 and 300 meters.(Centrifugal fuse takes 30 meters to arm.)

Easy to clean. Relatively light. Doesn't make a loud noise. Just goes "Thump." Though, the 40mm rounds are relatively heavy.

For close work, there is also a buckshot round. I understand that there were also a variety of non lethal rounds; though, I've only fired the HE round.

Uno
Sentry Dog Handler
US Army, 69-71
We had percussion grenades, white phosphorous, and HE rounds for the M79 onboard the ships I was stationed on. Have to say you can rock some peoples world with the percussion grenades. It will dent a sealed 55 gallon drum and make some serious shock waves clearly seen in the water.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Vicious cycle. More citizens are armed to the teeth, more police get grenade launchers. Profit? (For arms dealers)
What percentage of violent crimes are committed by these citizens who are "armed to the teeth"?

You're spewing bullshit. Go wash your mouth out.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
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What percentage of violent crimes are committed by these citizens who are "armed to the teeth"?

You're spewing bullshit. Go wash your mouth out.
While most gun crimes are committed with handguns, the police still must be equipped to deal with the increasing amount of assault rifles and such being obtained by criminals. And that means *gasp!* ordering M16s and M4s! I will concede that the grenade launchers are a bit excessive, even as a means for dispersing tear gas (because, I assume they aren't shooting explosive rounds).

It is simply a matter of police need to be equipped to deal with any situation in a timely manner, that includes getting their M4 from the trunk of their car.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
While most gun crimes are committed with handguns, the police still must be equipped to deal with the increasing amount of assault rifles and such being obtained by criminals. And that means *gasp!* ordering M16s and M4s! I will concede that the grenade launchers are a bit excessive, even as a means for dispersing tear gas (because, I assume they aren't shooting explosive rounds).

It is simply a matter of police need to be equipped to deal with any situation in a timely manner, that includes getting their M4 from the trunk of their car.
Facts, not conjecture, son.

Please show me facts about how many times the police have been outgunned by these heavily armed criminals.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
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I have a hard time seeing why police need assault rifles. Reminds me of my trip to Guatemala where the military police were strapped with AK47's and had guard towers everywhere. So creepy.

I can see why SWAT may need them.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
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I have a hard time seeing why police need assault rifles. Reminds me of my trip to Guatemala where the military police were strapped with AK47's and had guard towers everywhere. So creepy.

I can see why SWAT may need them.
Washington Post
The American Civil Liberties Union has released the results of its year-long study of police militarization... Among the notable findings:

62 percent of the SWAT raids surveyed were to conduct searches for drugs.

In at least 36 percent of the SWAT raids studies, no contraband of any kind was found. The report notes that due to incomplete police reports on these raids this figure could be as high as 65 percent...

65 percent of SWAT deployments resulted in some sort of forced entry into a private home, by way of a battering ram, boot, or some sort of explosive device. In over half those raids, the police failed to find any sort of weapon, the presence of which was cited as the reason for the violent tactics.

Ironically (or perhaps not), searches to serve warrants on people suspected of drug crimes were more likely to result in forced entry than raids conducted for other purposes.

Though often justified for rare incidents like school shootings or terrorist situations, the armored personnel vehicles police departments are getting from the Pentagon and through grants from the Department of Homeland Security are commonly used on drug raids.

In fact, just 7 percent of SWAT raids were &#8220;for hostage, barricade, or active shooter scenarios.&#8221;
While SWAT is often presented as a way to keep,the local police from being outgunned, if you look at the statistics, it is readily apparent that SWAT is just another arm of the failing War on Drugs.

SWAT is used in an active shooter/barricade/hostage situation less than 10% of the time.

A corresponding issue is the lack of training. I would argue that giving sophisticated weapons to untrained people decreases their security.

I was just a dog soldier, yet more than one out of every four days I was in the Army was spent in formal (as in, in a school) training. Local law enforcement gets weapons from DoD for free. They don't get any free training...

Those Ferguson Police, all dressed up like soldiers without the training. They're not making anyone more secure...

Uno
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,302
0
76
I have a hard time seeing why police need assault rifles. Reminds me of my trip to Guatemala where the military police were strapped with AK47's and had guard towers everywhere. So creepy.

I can see why SWAT may need them.
Well, many most estimates place the number of AR15 rifles in civilian hands at between 2-3 million. That is not counting AKs, HKs, and numerous other assault type weapons. Something like 310 million guns in the US. If I was a police officer you can bet that I would want as much firepower as possible.......

What was the stat I heard the other day? That an officer is killed in the line of duty approximately every 58 hours. An average 58,261 assaults against law enforcement each year. You don't see those stats on CNN......
 
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smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
86
Facts, not conjecture, son.

Please show me facts about how many times the police have been outgunned by these heavily armed criminals.
What conjecture? Fact: About half of all murders are committed with a hand gun. Fact: Sporting rifle (assault rifle) sales increased by 27% from 2007 to 2011. The number of

Does it really matter how many times?

North Hollywood Shootout. Had the responding officers had access to something beyond a 9mm, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.


Officers need effective tools. I am not advocating they carry them with them at all times, but having them in the trunk in the event the need arises, isn't a bad thing.
 

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