Simple CPU Question .... I Think :(

[AstroDav]

I use to build computers all the time, maybe 20-25 total, but that was WAY back in the 2-core days. I just simply burned out & didn't have fun doing it any longer. But I still do my own family computers, since I'm a bit picky. I guess I was pretty good at picking the pieces, since this ancient Athlon64X2-4800+ / Nvidia9800GT rig is only now feeling serious effects of the "I-Can't-Do-That" disease. So it's time for new.

The results of several recent 3a.m. bedtimes have allowed me to figure out the best parts for my price-range ... graphics, memory, case, drives, etc. The MOBO won't be a problem, since that's always been my favorite piece to research. However, because of how long I've been out of the loop, I'm WAY behind on new CPU-tech. That's where I need YOUR help, although I have narrowed the possibilities down to a minimum. There's just a couple (that means 3 or 5) items which I'm still clueless about.

You saw above I haven't picked a MOBO yet, for the obvious reason I haven't picked a CPU yet. But I'm going with 1 of 6 for sure (or 1 of 9, I'll elaborate at the end). Although I've used 90% AMD's, I'm not completely Intel-Stupid. I'm NOT a fan-boy either way & hope this thread doesn't devolve into that.

So the basics are, I'm looking at AMD FX-8350, 8320, or 8120. I shouldn't even include the last one, since it ranks quite a bit lower than the first 2 on about every benchmark/comparison I've been able to find, at only $25'ish cheaper. These are all 8-core. Now, for Intel, I've picked i5-2450P, 3470, or 2500K. I've read remarkable stories about the last one, even though several benchmarks place it a bit lower than the 1st two. HOWEVER, I'm a good OC'er & seems like that "K" signifies a chip which works well with that art, so it could probably be convinced to operate at near the performance of the 1st two. And it also already has a higher clock speed than either, but significantly lower than the 1st two AMDs. I'm plenty computer-savvy to know that doesn't mean a whole lot in modern chips, but I'll be the first to admit that it's my major CPU-weakness .... I LUV seeing those monstrous clocks, like the 4.0GHZ of the biggest AMD above.

I do know that typically Intel usually beats AMD same-4-same, and quite often even a couple notches HIGHER of an AMD. But here's my main stickler. Best that I can tell, ALL i5's are 4-core. All AMD's above are 8-core. (Let's not get into hyperthreading discussion in depth, although it may play a part, if i5's actually have it) So ... even though Intel chips quite often outperform AMD chips, will those 8-core AMD chips have a noticable advantage above those 4-core Intels? If not, will those extra 4 cores allow the AMD chips to perform AS WELL as the Intels? I bring that up because ALL of the AMD's, with only 1 sole exception, are up to 60 bucks cheaper. I'm NOT building a bargain-basement system here, but I'm also a Disabled Vet with fixed income. $25 doesn't matter, $60 might.

So will I get better performance from those faster, bigger, & cheaper AMDs? Or will the somewhat more expensive, smaller, & slower Intels STILL outdo them?

That's the main question & the only one I need a definite answer to. However, as hinted at above, there are 3 more CPUs I'm eyeing as curiosities. The A10-5800K, A10-5700, & A8-5600K APUs, with integrated graphics. Now right off the bat I KNOW these don't ompute as well as ANY of the 6 above, but they aren't dramatically too far back. My new build WILL have a great graphics card in it, so I'm not saying I'll rely on the onboard video. But the plan is to buy SLI/Crossfire capable stuff, but only 1 card for now. I'm not even sure I'll like a dual graphic set-up, but doing it this way allows me to add that second card later, if I so choose.

But will these chips with onboard Radeon graphics work together with a dedicated Radeon card, much like a Crossfire setup? he biggest & neatest advantage I see by going this APU-route is that I would still have working video if I blew my card up. (Remember I said that I OC'd .... well, sometimes I OD too & burn something up ) So does either of these reasons give me a legitimate reason to go with the less powerful APUs, which will actually do all the computing I want to do anyway?

Last thing, an "addie" since we got to talking about onboard graphic stuff. I noticed that some new MOBOs have some decent onboard graphics now. Will THIS graphics do an SLI/Crossfire-type deal with a dedicated video card? Does it have to be the same brand? In other words, if the MOBO graphics are Radeon, will it work with Nvidia, or just Radeon? THIS option would allow me to do what I SHOULD do anyway & go with one of the faster pure-CPUs. But then I'd still have that extra graphics when I melt my new dedicated video card.

Thanks in advance for all help.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Z77+3570K, specially if you game.

IGP graphics wont do you any good when using a discrete card.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

I do know that typically Intel usually beats AMD same-4-same, and quite often even a couple notches HIGHER of an AMD. But here's my main stickler. Best that I can tell, ALL i5's are 4-core. All AMD's above are 8-core.

AMD cores are inferior on a core-by-core basis. Each pair of cores also shares an FPU.

So will I get better performance from those faster, bigger, & cheaper AMDs? Or will the somewhat more expensive, smaller, & slower Intels STILL outdo them?

Yes on both counts. (Depends what you're doing.)

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/702?vs=698

Don't bother with an APU. If you're dropping in anything resembling a decent video card, it's not worth taking the hit on CPU power.

 

[VirtualLarry]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2299401

make sure you watch the video linked in this thread first. it was certainly eye-opening for me.

Edit: also read this thread
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2297052

 

[Idontcare]

Welcome to the forums AstroDav :thumbsup:

I read your OP but I could not determine what you intend to do with your system (other than gaming, or is that all it will be used for?).

Price/performance pretty much always favors getting an Intel system these days unless you are simply upgrading the CPU. As soon as you throw in the cost of upgrading the mobo+ram+gpu+etc the price performance for your total budget favors Intel in almost all cases.

 

[AstroDav]

Add this. Maybe it'll help with the CPU choice between Intel 4-cores & AMD 8-cores. 3 things I basically do:

1. I game. NEVER on-line. My games are almost entirely simulators. SimCity4, upcoming SimCity Limited, Trainz 2011, Cities-XL, Tropico-4, Civ-5, junk like that. I'm not running & shooting, but sometimes (often) build up humongous maps & metros.

2. I'm an author. My books are almost always 1 of 2 genres. #1 is novels built around events which could, or have, happened. These require LOTS of research, so sometimes I may have 50 tabs open on 2 different browsers + my text editor open somewhere else. I figure this type usage is more bandwidth/memory intensive, but it does use processor power also. #2 type is BIG eye-candy books, the expensive type with large pretty pictures & little writing which you leave open on the end-table to impress your friends. Here I may have much fewer tabs open, but they will each contain large hi-res images. I may also have 1 or 2 image editors going (Photoshop, Ultimate-Paint, format changers, etc.) So I figure this type is more graphic intensive, less bandwidth, about the same memory.

3. I'm a very active & somewhat advanced astrophotographer. The images I take through the scopes via CCD are B&W exposed through 4 color filters. The result is a set of "FITS" files, usually around 1500X1200, & often up to 300MB each, depending upon how long the exposure was. All 4 of these will be open at one time in Photoshop, while I align, crop, adjust, etc. The final, usually 500MB'ish, then goes through a converter to make it into hi-res TIFFS or lower-res PNGs. VERY high memory usage, CPU, GPU, everything.


Maybe that info will help a little on which CPU-type is better.

 

[bgt]

AsztroDav, a A10-5700/5800 is OK enough.

 

[SocketF]

I'll play Civ5 myself, the waiting time between turns is just annoying and it take more time the bigger the map is. Only one thread is used for the calculations, thus IPC+clock is needed here, hence I'll vote for the typical intel setup as ShintaiDK wrote in the 2nd post.

Anything else of the used applications are nothing special, but I would recommend to buy some DDR3-1866 modules to increase memory bandwidth for the pictures a bit. DDR3-1866 modules are not much more expensive these days anyways. Try to get 1.5V modules from good brands like Kingston, Crucial/Micron, Corsair.
Edit: These ones are nice:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148560

AMD's FX perform nicely when you use all cores, but most software programs do not.

If your upgrade is not urgent you might want to wait for intel's next generation Haswell, they'll launch some time between spring & summer.

 

[Phynaz]

Intel 3570K and an Asrock Z77 Extreme 4 board. This setup will last you very, very long time with your intended usage.

Bonus if you live near a Microcenter.

 

[AstroDav]

Well, that's the 2nd time that 3570 has popped up .... huummm :biggrin:

 

[SocketF]

Well, that's the 2nd time that 3570 has popped up .... huummm :biggrin:

It's currently really the "good-for-everything" CPU. Problems only arouse if you cannot afford it and need a cheaper processor.

For the mainboard .. hmm any mid range board will do, check the rebate-programms.

That one looks nice, only 90 US-Dollars instead of 160 and 1y ext. warranty:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128512

But to be able to use it you need to flash the BIOS with a Sandy-Bridge CPU.

Or does anybody else knew if a USB stick is enough for the modern UEFI BIOSes?

Anyhow, if you want it easy and can afford it, then get a Z77 board, not a Z68 ;-)

 

[Idontcare]

Add this. Maybe it'll help with the CPU choice between Intel 4-cores & AMD 8-cores. 3 things I basically do:

1. I game. NEVER on-line. My games are almost entirely simulators. SimCity4, upcoming SimCity Limited, Trainz 2011, Cities-XL, Tropico-4, Civ-5, junk like that. I'm not running & shooting, but sometimes (often) build up humongous maps & metros.

2. I'm an author. My books are almost always 1 of 2 genres. #1 is novels built around events which could, or have, happened. These require LOTS of research, so sometimes I may have 50 tabs open on 2 different browsers + my text editor open somewhere else. I figure this type usage is more bandwidth/memory intensive, but it does use processor power also. #2 type is BIG eye-candy books, the expensive type with large pretty pictures & little writing which you leave open on the end-table to impress your friends. Here I may have much fewer tabs open, but they will each contain large hi-res images. I may also have 1 or 2 image editors going (Photoshop, Ultimate-Paint, format changers, etc.) So I figure this type is more graphic intensive, less bandwidth, about the same memory.

3. I'm a very active & somewhat advanced astrophotographer. The images I take through the scopes via CCD are B&W exposed through 4 color filters. The result is a set of "FITS" files, usually around 1500X1200, & often up to 300MB each, depending upon how long the exposure was. All 4 of these will be open at one time in Photoshop, while I align, crop, adjust, etc. The final, usually 500MB'ish, then goes through a converter to make it into hi-res TIFFS or lower-res PNGs. VERY high memory usage, CPU, GPU, everything.


Maybe that info will help a little on which CPU-type is better.

Based #2 and #3 I'd definitely recommend the 3570K if not the 3770K, coupled with a nice fast Samsung 840 Pro and 32GB of DDR3-1866 ram.

Intel platforms have better memory speeds (better bandwidth for the same speed rated ram) and tease better performance out of SSDs.

Your apps will take advantage of hyperthreading but it may not be worth the extra $100 to you.

 

[Phynaz]

IDC, he's on a budget, and you just blew it

While I agree with the SSD, 32GB of memory - along with the Windows Pro it takes to run it - is overkill.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

The higher IPC and single-threaded performance of an Intel chip will be nice for office tasks and casual games that probably aren't heavily multithreaded.

The 3450/70 gives you almost all of the performance of a 3570K, but without the overclocking options. Going that route will save you $50 or so, and if you have a Z77 motherboard, you can still eke +400 MHz out of them. (If you're lucky with your bclock, you can bump it up a couple MHz to hit 4.0 GHz in single-core Turbo Boost mode. Not really a useful difference, and adjusting the bclock can cause problems, but the screenshot looks nice.)

An SSD will help that usage model (office apps) a lot.

I'd probably go with 8GB now but buy Win7 Pro so you have room to grow RAM-wise.

 

[AstroDav]

I have no idea how I missed that 3570K. It's not THAT much higher than the 2500K & quite a bit of improvement. I've already made up my mind about that, but would have definitely missed it if not for ya'll. The MOBO ... I always indulge a bit there. Learned LONG ago a budget MOBO will get you a budget-performance machine.

As mentioned, I haven't actually scoured the MOBOs yet, not even knowing which CPU I was getting, but I was VERY roughly figuring on spending $150-175'ish. That should get one that will stay with me. I said above the MOBO was my favorite part. I like a pretty one (makes the computer run gooder) with a dozen fan headers, some gadgets, & 15 or so expansion slots .... something like that anyway.

I definitely wasn't figuring on 32 gig of memory, especially since I like buying good stuff. So I'll probably have to dream about that. I've already got 2 good twin 500Gig SATA-HD's, can't remember exacts about them, but they are good. So since I won't be buying those, I was already planning an SSD for the OS + the more used programs. The HD's will be storage, so I don't bog down the SSD.

Ya'll have pretty much did exactly what I was hoping to get from this thread, a firm shove towards the right CPU. If you still want to talk, I'll definitely read, but basically my questions have been answered. So thanks alot.

It'll take me into March before I can buy everything I need. But I'll make a reply back here detailing exactly what went into it. You already know one part .... 3570K. NOW I can go play with motherboards, instead of those boring power supplies & cases.

 

[AstroDav]

P.S. Dave ... already got Win7-Pro. It was on sale a few weeks ago. I skipped Vista, except on a laptop I never use, but knew this new machine would be on Win7, so got it when it was a wee bit cheaper. I didn't want to bother putting it on this one (XP-Pro64), since I knew it was about to retire anyway.

P.S.S. And just for the record, I am really, really, REALLY going to miss XP. I've had 4 different versions of it over the years & I love it. But just like those original Athlon-XP's which I so loved too, I know that it's time to shed a tear & move on. Wiiii

 

[Phynaz]

Glad we could help out. When you are closer to buying check out the motherboards forum for a good board to go with the 3570K.

 

[2is]

Good choice on the CPU. I wouldn't pay much attention to the video VirtualLarry is referring to. Dozens of well known, reputable reviewers are all unanimous that Intel > Amd, this one review no ones ever heard of says the opposite and all the AMD guys jump on it like it's gospel.

As far as the motherboard is concerned, I'm partial to ASUS myself. They have several different Z77 boards (a few too many IMHO) depending on the features you want. Gigabyte boards are pretty good too, using one in my 2nd gaming machine.

 

[Yuriman]

I'm very happy with my ASRock board, I've had zero complaints with it. It was also one of the cheaper Z77 boards while still remaining fully featured.

 

[AstroDav]

I've used all of those at some time or another, + a half-dozen other brands, some defunct. I had good luck with Asus & Asrock also, but am partial to Gigabyte for boards & cards. I got scared of MSI a few years ago, perhaps unwarranted. They just started seeming to me like being made fast as possible, for cheap as possible, equaling huge amounts being sold. That spooks me on anything mechanical or electronic, thinking that somewhere some corners are being cut to save time & money.

But I used a bunch of them in those 20-25 I built back a few years ago, since I was donating the machines to kids who couldn't afford to buy one. So since I'm not rich, I couldn't be giving away $500 computers. 2-3 year back cheap MSI's worked well there & as far as I know, NONE of them pooped out prematurely. But i just don't want them. Just a personal thing I guess.

The FUNNEST(??) boards I ever had were 3 identical Shuttle micros in Socket-A, brand new & stolen for only 10 bucks each. You couldn't kill those things. Screw the BIOS up royally & they'd just cough it out & keep computing.

 

[scragnoff]

Hi AstroDave! I'd recommend the i5-3570K on top of a Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UD5H. Start with 8 GB of ram. Logical Increments has a great chart showing a list of tiers according to specific budgets on a price/performance ratio.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Upgraded one of my gaming boxes to a cheap Pentium G2020. Value-wise, it's one of the best processors (that can be passively cooled as well) around today. You guys, need to try it out

 

[2is]

Nahhh.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Good choice on the CPU. I wouldn't pay much attention to the video VirtualLarry is referring to. Dozens of well known, reputable reviewers are all unanimous that Intel > Amd, this one review no ones ever heard of says the opposite and all the AMD guys jump on it like it's gospel.

That's because none of the "reputable" reviewers tried benchmarking games while streaming with XSplit. When you do that, the extra cores of the AMD 8-core CPUs allow them to shine.

 

[Denithor]

If you're waiting for a couple months before this upgrade might be worth waiting for Haswell. Have a feeling it's going to be somewhat of a game changer.

Otherwise, I'll suggest 3570K + ASRock Extreme4/6 board + 16-32GB DDR3-1866 + good SSD and you'll be happy as a lark.