<sigh> McCain joins Obama in wanting to regulate CEO pay

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
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eskimospy had been complaining that I hadn't started any anti-McCain posts. Fortunately for him, this article on McCain's stance regarding CEO pay that I vehemently disagree with just popped up and I would've likely posted it anyway.

McCain criticizes Obama for wanting to increase dividend and capital gains taxes and aiming to raise the minimum wage and link it to an index.

But he also takes aim at top corporate executives with big salaries and excessive severance packages.

"Americans are right to be offended when the extravagant salaries and severance deals of CEOs ... bear no relation to the success of the company or the wishes of shareholders," he will say, adding that some of those chief executives helped bring on the country's housing crisis and market troubles.

"If I am elected president, I intend to see that wrongdoing of this kind is called to account by federal prosecutors. And under my reforms, all aspects of a CEO's pay, including any severance arrangements, must be approved by shareholders," he will say.

OK, prosecuting CEOs who break the law is fine and dandy. However, no where should it be under the control of the federal government how much a person is allowed to make. These are private businesses. Let them sink or swim based on their own merits and decisions. Trying to inject the federal government here is a slippery slope IMHO.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Originally posted by: Queasy
Link -
eskimospy had been complaining that I hadn't started any anti-McCain posts. Fortunately for him, this article on McCain's stance regarding CEO pay that I vehemently disagree with just popped up and I would've likely posted it anyway.

McCain criticizes Obama for wanting to increase dividend and capital gains taxes and aiming to raise the minimum wage and link it to an index.

But he also takes aim at top corporate executives with big salaries and excessive severance packages.

"Americans are right to be offended when the extravagant salaries and severance deals of CEOs ... bear no relation to the success of the company or the wishes of shareholders," he will say, adding that some of those chief executives helped bring on the country's housing crisis and market troubles.

"If I am elected president, I intend to see that wrongdoing of this kind is called to account by federal prosecutors. And under my reforms, all aspects of a CEO's pay, including any severance arrangements, must be approved by shareholders," he will say.

OK, prosecuting CEOs who break the law is fine and dandy. However, no where should it be under the control of the federal government how much a person is allowed to make. These are private businesses. Let them sink or swim based on their own merits and decisions. Trying to inject the federal government here is a slippery slope IMHO.

"All aspects of a CEO's pay, including any severance arrangements, must be approved by shareholders." That statement doesn't have anything to do with the federal government. I realize that he also mentions federal prosecution, so I'm not accusing you of misreading the article, I'm just curious how you react to that proposed reformation?
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
60,590
15,747
136
This is a sticky situation, and I don't feel the massive growth of the wage gap between workers and executives has been good for the country, the companies, the shareholders, or anyone apart from the executives. But that doesn't mean I think this is the right approach.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
A public stock corporation is NOT, strictly speaking, a "private business." In exchange for government protection from individual liability, the granting of "legal person" status, and the ability to raise capital through public stock, public corporations take upon themselves a legal requirement to safeguard the financial interests of their shareholders.
In which case, your comment of "Let them sink or swim based on their own merits and decisions" is clearly (and intentionally) blurring lines of reality. As is your comment that the federal government is dictating how much a person is allowed to make, when the issue is clearly that of shareholder approval.

"If I am elected president, I intend to see that wrongdoing of this kind is called to account by federal prosecutors. And under my reforms, all aspects of a CEO's pay, including any severance arrangements, must be approved by shareholders," he will say.

Which BTW is more or less exactly what Obama said on the issue.

I'm curious, Queasy, what planet do you live on exactly?
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
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Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Originally posted by: Queasy
Link -
eskimospy had been complaining that I hadn't started any anti-McCain posts. Fortunately for him, this article on McCain's stance regarding CEO pay that I vehemently disagree with just popped up and I would've likely posted it anyway.

McCain criticizes Obama for wanting to increase dividend and capital gains taxes and aiming to raise the minimum wage and link it to an index.

But he also takes aim at top corporate executives with big salaries and excessive severance packages.

"Americans are right to be offended when the extravagant salaries and severance deals of CEOs ... bear no relation to the success of the company or the wishes of shareholders," he will say, adding that some of those chief executives helped bring on the country's housing crisis and market troubles.

"If I am elected president, I intend to see that wrongdoing of this kind is called to account by federal prosecutors. And under my reforms, all aspects of a CEO's pay, including any severance arrangements, must be approved by shareholders," he will say.

OK, prosecuting CEOs who break the law is fine and dandy. However, no where should it be under the control of the federal government how much a person is allowed to make. These are private businesses. Let them sink or swim based on their own merits and decisions. Trying to inject the federal government here is a slippery slope IMHO.

"All aspects of a CEO's pay, including any severance arrangements, must be approved by shareholders." That statement doesn't have anything to do with the federal government. I realize that he also mentions federal prosecution, so I'm not accusing you of misreading the article, I'm just curious how you react to that proposed reformation?

If a company elected to let its shareholders do that on their own, that is fine. But you cut off the words before that statement, "under my reforms,". In other words, more government regulation.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
This is a sticky situation, and I don't feel the massive growth of the wage gap between workers and executives has been good for the country, the companies, the shareholders, or anyone apart from the executives. But that doesn't mean I think this is the right approach.

There's actually nothing sticky about this, which is why the issue has bipartisan support. Corporate managements have been exploiting various regulatory loopholes in order to bilk their shareholders.

What's next? Should we legalize insider trading too?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Let me guess, if the company/CEO breaks the *rule* the answer is a tax - send the money to Congress.

Damn, I'm really starting to hate election years. I've never heard of more stupid pandering bullshit proposed in such a short amount of time.

Congress can't handle their responsibilities now - so the (il)logical responce is to add more? Now they think they know how much a CEO should make?

The answer is disclosure and the SEC is perfectly capable of handling that.

Fern
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
6-10-2008 Millions Paid to Dead CEOs

If you think "golden parachutes" for CEOs are scandalous, then brace yourself for the latest outrage: "golden coffins."

Yes, that's right. It's not enough that American CEOs get paid gigantic sums, many are also due to collect huge severance packages after they die, The Wall Street Journal reports.

Among the more outrageous posthumous packages:

$298.1 million for Comcast CEO Brian Roberts
$288 million for Nabors CEO Eugene Isenberg

Defenders say the packages are merely "deferred compensation" or geared to aid estate-planning and tax efficiency.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
6-10-2008 Millions Paid to Dead CEOs

The practice is time-honored but was largely hidden until a recent change to disclosure requirements.

Which is as it should be. Shareholders should have a clear accounting of the practices of the companies they own stock in and hold their CEOs and board members feet to the fire when they do stuff like this.

However, I don't want to hear stuff like this from the government:
We need rules that assure fairness and punish wrongdoing in the market.

Punish law-breaking. Good! Have the federal government define what is fair? <shudder>

 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
60,590
15,747
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Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
This is a sticky situation, and I don't feel the massive growth of the wage gap between workers and executives has been good for the country, the companies, the shareholders, or anyone apart from the executives. But that doesn't mean I think this is the right approach.

There's actually nothing sticky about this, which is why the issue has bipartisan support. Corporate managements have been exploiting various regulatory loopholes in order to bilk their shareholders.

What's next? Should we legalize insider trading too?

You don't think there's anything sticky about choosing the proper way to address the situation?
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
5,947
0
0
Originally posted by: Fern
Let me guess, if the company/CEO breaks the *rule* the answer is a tax - send the money to Congress.

Damn, I'm really starting to hate election years. I've never heard of more stupid pandering bullshit proposed in such a short amount of time.

Congress can't handle their responsibilities now - so the (il)logical responce is to add more? Now they think they know how much a CEO should make?

The answer is disclosure and the SEC is perfectly capable of handling that.

Fern

Yep, this should be handled by the SEC. Shareholders can control this situation with the right information.
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
793
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76
Does McCain include Carly Fiorina in this condemnation? She's one of his economic advisors and one of his main talking heads on TV when the media wants to discuss his economic policies.

When she was fired from HP after 5 and a half years as CEO, she received a ~$42 million severance package ($21.4 million cash, the rest stock options). I'm sure many of us would enjoy unemployment due to poor performance more if it always came with a $42 million parachute.

Edit: Government intervention into the salary issue is tricky. The least they could do is exempt companies with large wage discrepencies (eg more than 100x low to high) from "incentive" tax loopholes that they would otherwise be entitled to. Similar to what's being proposed for companies who outsource their jobs abroad. Granted, extra taxes / no special favors are two sides of the same coin given your point of view.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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One of the most common fallacies I see in political discussions is when people get caught up in the details, the rules, and lost sight of the larger picture and when the rules need to be changed.

Laissez-Faire was a theory about how to approach economics; it led to some disastrous things, and attempts were made to address some problems while keeping the good. For example, one of the leading experts in exploiting the rules of the laissez-faire stock market, Joe Kennedy (father of JFK), was made the first commissioner of the new SEC to fix that, and reportedly did a good job at fixing a lot.

Som people get so caught up in the 'absolute right' in some ideologies for something that they don't notice when the building is burning and change is needed. You can see the effects of bias when the problems in one side, such as the corruption of the CEO compensation system through the inefficiencies of shareholder oversight, get an 'oh, that's too bad, but what can you do' response, while suggested fixes get screaming murder responses, don't you dareeeeee lay a fingerrrrrr on the blessed rights of the corporations to run society into the ground!!!'. Sometimes I think that some in our society have had some sort of massive Stockholm syndrome where they don't think they're in charge as our founding fathers intended, and they instead fawn over the powerful corporations and protect them from any public oversight, while the corporations can do almost anything they like to pursue profit for the corporation, whatever the harm.

Then a movie/book like 'The Corporation' come along which help show the perspective of a larger problem, with its apt analogy to sociopathic behavior, and why that should not get its desire without any oversight by society.

People forget that the economy is less of an ideological system than an engine which needs the parts balanced and tuned. There are things we do to improve the performance of the economy, just as with an engine; there are things we do for some reasons which reduce the engine's performance, like our societal social programs with taxation; analogously, such as measures that reduce pollution from an engine.

The system relies on the proper incentives being in place for people from the janitor to the CEO. However, there isn't really a system where someone says 'what's right for society', instead there are mainly 'interests', from the labor unions to the corporate management, who compete for who gets how much, and it's luck of the draw how 'efficient' the system is.

That's the role of government at that point, to recognize where tweaking the rules can help fix a problem. At least, it's supposed to be, when the government represents the public, not only one part of the system.

The system has become corrupted, with CEO's having a culture of serving one another, on their boards with a nudge nudge wink wink oversight of the compensation they approve, and shareholders almost never being organized enough to actually push any concern. It was a recent news story when the Rockefeller got a shareholder vote on an issue they've been pushing for years, for Exxon, the company their grandfather founded, to do more in alternative energy. They lost, and it was a news story because it's so rare. The only time we regularly see the shareholder power is when one wealthy person or group can buy enough shares to force a policy; that's not the effective use of shareholder rights by ordinary shareholders, who typically have no idea who the board is, what they're doing, or how to get the other shareholders informed if they had a concern.

That's a system that's ripe for some improvement being made to better add a check and balance to the CEO's, who now use such techniques as hiring 'compensation consultants' to provide an 'independent' review of compensation - which seems to really be more of a phony stamp of approval for excess, since the consultants are so typically selected and paid for by the same people.

There are ways to limit the corruption without excessive intrusion on the corporation's efficiency. The question is whether the people who are stuck on the ideology can accept a solution, or will merely parrot why nothing should be done. It's hard enough to get our government representing the public; we don't need too many in the public supporting the wrong policies.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,779
8,880
136
Originally posted by: Queasy
OK, prosecuting CEOs who break the law is fine and dandy. However, no where should it be under the control of the federal government how much a person is allowed to make. These are private businesses. Let them sink or swim based on their own merits and decisions. Trying to inject the federal government here is a slippery slope IMHO.

No slope to be found, consider calling it a free fall because that is what we already have.

Every penny is "made off the backs of the people" and thus Washington DC considers no money private. It is theirs to do with as they please.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: woodie1
Originally posted by: Fern
Let me guess, if the company/CEO breaks the *rule* the answer is a tax - send the money to Congress.

Damn, I'm really starting to hate election years. I've never heard of more stupid pandering bullshit proposed in such a short amount of time.

Congress can't handle their responsibilities now - so the (il)logical responce is to add more? Now they think they know how much a CEO should make?

The answer is disclosure and the SEC is perfectly capable of handling that.

Fern

Yep, this should be handled by the SEC. Shareholders can control this situation with the right information.

The evidence I see suggests otherwise, that stronger measures are needed. You have some very skilled people in the CEO culture who are highly motivated to keep this broken.

How about a simple starting measure that when 'independent' compensation consultants are utilized, standards for their actually being independent are put in place?

It's a little like the issue when companies own investing advice businesses and investing businesses, and have a conflict of interest between the two. One moment they're all about keeping the two separate to protect the consumer, then the 'don't interfere' ideology lets them mix them more and more, until there's a big scandal, when they are again willing to fix things, and the cycle continues. 'Disclosure' is somewhat useful, but IMO inadequate for some of these problems.

Care to provide several examples, over the many thousands of corporations and decades, where disclosure resulted in any shareholder organization to fix a problem?

I'm referring to some broad shareholder response, not when one person or group got control of enough shares to do something.

(Note: the SEC you praise itself was a 'liberal' FDR creation that many saw in the same light as reforms today, an excessive intrusion into the marketplace by the government).
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
I might go for CEO pay requiring stockholder permission if members of congress were subject to the same limitation.
 

MustISO

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,927
12
81
Executive salaries and compensation should be completely up to the shareholders. The fact that the board of directors is making any compensation decisions is like giving Homer Simpson a key to the Dunkin' Donuts.

I read that article about the payments upon a CEO's death and it made me absolutely sick. This is exactly what is wrong with big business in America. Unfortunately it's completely backed and applauded by our government.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: Craig234
Care to provide several examples, over the many thousands of corporations and decades, where disclosure resulted in any shareholder organization to fix a problem?

Irrelevant.

Make disclosure mandatory.

If they don't adequately disclose we all know lawsuits will result. I'd just add making it possible that such damages come from the CEO him/herself, and not the corporation (the shareholders themselves really - that would be nonsensical).

If somebody doesn't avail themselves of the information, IMO that's their own damn problem.

Fern
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
This is a sticky situation, and I don't feel the massive growth of the wage gap between workers and executives has been good for the country, the companies, the shareholders, or anyone apart from the executives. But that doesn't mean I think this is the right approach.

I'm interested in knowing why it has not been good. What are some rational reasons it has not been good for the country that there is a wage gap? I have yet to have Bill Gates, Warren Buffet's, Steve Job's or any other CEO/Company President's high wage effect me personally or anyone one around me.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I might go for CEO pay requiring stockholder permission if members of congress were subject to the same limitation.

That's one of the more ridiculous opinions we see on government issues, the idea of the overcompensated politician without any oversight.

The politicians already have what you ask for, with direct elections and the chance to get to know your politicians' policies in campaigns, unlike the directors you 'vote' on, 'yes or no'.

They're compensated less than $200K per year, and in the real world, that's not going to get them rich for people with their skills; most if not all are taking pay cuts to serve there.

For example, my congressman was the founder of a decent sized bank; in the 1970's, the Vietnam war was a big enough concern that he's served in congress ever since. What he's done is public service, as it was designed to be done, and he deserves credit for sacrificing a lot of wealth to serve.

There are the few who have corrupt interests for serving, such as the guy who led Bush's Medicare drug company giveaway bill through congress, and then immediately resigned to a waiting position in the drug companies (with $150B extra profit from his getting it through, they could take care of his reward), but those are the rare exception.

The least of your concerns should be the peanuts the members of Congress receive, relative to the skills and importance of the work they're doing. There should be controls to prevent abuses, and for the most part, with the exceptions in some areas like travel that the Democrats have partly closed up since 2006, there are. The danger is greater of talented people not wanting to serve because of the cut in income, than of their serving just for the 'big pay'. Where there is corruption, it's from 'interests', not high pay.

It's the wrongheaded sort of populism that comes up when people worry about the nickles and dimes excessively, and not the billions. It reflects a lack of understanding of the problem, and makes it easy for the politicians to mask the wrongs. For all your concern about their being paid such princely sums, you did not say anything about so many of them becoming lobbyists for special interests soon after they leave - a far more important issue. You don't think having a lobbying position waiting has a far more corrupting effect?

On a side note, that's one more issue with the law of unintended consequences on term limits, that legislators leaving soon are more interested in the 'opportunities' after. They'd do well to do favors for the firms who can give them compensation after they leave office, as opposed to the legislators who stay in office.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Craig234
Care to provide several examples, over the many thousands of corporations and decades, where disclosure resulted in any shareholder organization to fix a problem?

Irrelevant.

Make disclosure mandatory.

If they don't adequately disclose we all know lawsuits will result. I'd just add making it possible that such damages come from the CEO him/herself, and not the corporation (the shareholders themselves really - that would be nonsensical).

If somebody doesn't avail themselves of the information, IMO that's their own damn problem.

Fern

No, what's irrelevant is your making the entire issue one small part of it that will not do much at all to fix the issue.

You can say 'it's their own damn problem' all day and leave the problem unfixed, because that's what Republicans do: use ideological and impractical 'solutions' and refuse to actually do policies that work, and instead make excuses for why they don't. That's why Republicans have stood so much against most improvements in our government's programs for so long.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
60,590
15,747
136
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
This is a sticky situation, and I don't feel the massive growth of the wage gap between workers and executives has been good for the country, the companies, the shareholders, or anyone apart from the executives. But that doesn't mean I think this is the right approach.

I'm interested in knowing why it has not been good. What are some rational reasons it has not been good for the country that there is a wage gap? I have yet to have Bill Gates, Warren Buffet's, Steve Job's or any other CEO/Company President's high wage effect me personally or anyone one around me.

Sorry, I haven't got any rational reasons, that why I prefaced my statement with "I don't feel".
All I have to offer is wild conjecture and biased opinion.
FWIW, I also think it's absolutely asinine that ball players earn more than CEOs, too.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Considering how abused the board of directors system is when it comes to CEO pay, you want some kind of reform to happen - but their current pay is already "shareholder approved".

AFAIK, it's an issue of shareholder ignorance/uncaring, and of those who own significant amounts of that company's stock caring less about what's best for the organization and more about mutual back-scratching. Closing the stock options loophole would be a start though.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Because of the related ancilliary issues that can be related to this, I wouldn't be opposed to some regulation that related top level salaries to some magnitude of the average employee salary.

But to simply set a level with no purpose I find a bit out there.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Craig234
Care to provide several examples, over the many thousands of corporations and decades, where disclosure resulted in any shareholder organization to fix a problem?

Irrelevant.

Make disclosure mandatory.

If they don't adequately disclose we all know lawsuits will result. I'd just add making it possible that such damages come from the CEO him/herself, and not the corporation (the shareholders themselves really - that would be nonsensical).

If somebody doesn't avail themselves of the information, IMO that's their own damn problem.

Fern

No, what's irrelevant is your making the entire issue one small part of it that will not do much at all to fix the issue.

You can say 'it's their own damn problem' all day and leave the problem unfixed, because that's what Republicans do: use ideological and impractical 'solutions' and refuse to actually do policies that work, and instead make excuses for why they don't. That's why Republicans have stood so much against most improvements in our government's programs for so long.

Or you can act like a big government Dem and tell people their ignorance and stupidity can all be solved by more government & regulation. Why bother with any personal responsibility when you can expect the government to step and save your @ss from yourself?

Fern