should we severely limit who gets into college?

[OverVolt]

More graduates means a more productive economy. So yeah, turn the US economy into shit. it's not the 19th century, countries need in the modern world economy a high degree of skilled people. Back then, a few only truly needed to go to university, now it's not the case.

Also, very few countries have free education since they cannot afford it. And this even pre-Great Recession was true. It means higher taxes, and of course the masses won't accept that.

A degree means getting a better job, more money, etc. so pass that up? This is more or less the reason people are conditioned to go to college.

And yeah, unemployment is still high and GDP growth is low. So yeah, this is why there are less jobs...

As many people as possible should go to university, since without it economies won't be competitive.

I disagree 80% of the workforce pushing papers back and forth to each other isn't a productive economy. We've actually stopped producing real wealth and are just trying to borrow to cover up that fact.

 

[mammador]

If we change our entire education model to mirror the awesome UK system, you'll have years of education and hands-on experience under your belt by the time you graduate.

This general studies nonsense through the whole of high school and then again through the first two years of college is stupid.

There was a high school here that, the first four years it was open, offered Cisco education. You could graduate high school with Cisco certifications. They don't do it anymore though

UK system?

I was born and raised there, and our system is not that different to your own.

compulsory education is from 5-16, with two years optional for A-Levels. After that, one can go to university. But even then, students have to pay tuition fees (for the most part, since in Scotland they don't).

 

[Genx87]

Knowledge is never worthless.

That's like saying that your high school diploma is worthless.

Eventually, a college degree will be absolutely required for all but the most skill-less positions --kinda like how it is now for GED holders vs diploma achievers.

If people desire knowledge they dont need to pay a lot of money and go to a university to gain it. And you are correct in flooding the market with bachelor degrees will diminish the value of the degree.

 

[mammador]

I disagree 80% of the workforce pushing papers back and forth to each other isn't a productive economy.

Productive as in our economy needs people with skills. To manage networks, treat the sick, design and construct buildings, etc.

Without them, economies could not grow, and the US gets left behind. it's just the way it is in the modern world economy. And what is real wealth? If you mean services, well that's simply how advanced economies are. unless you advocate going back to agrarianism or something.

 

[OverVolt]

UK system?

I was born and raised there, and our system is not that different to your own.

compulsory education is from 5-16, with two years optional for A-Levels. After that, one can go to university. But even then, students have to pay tuition fees (for the most part, since in Scotland they don't).

Ehhhh a private school is a public school and a public school is a private school for starters. You either know what I mean or you don't :awe:.

 

[Genx87]

We already do, by making it too expensive

Even my local community college is charging over $600 a semester just in books. Not everyone has access to a good family support system for financial aid or has the knowledge of how to get grants & loans. I think we would do a lot better if our students didn't graduate with $50 to $100k in debt. There's a whole meme set of Old Economy Steve that pretty much sums it up:

http://www.quickmeme.com/Old-Economy-Steven/?upcoming

I know a discussion of government intervention is more of a P&N discussion, but I do think the government should intervene and at least place limits to education costs. It's highway robbery what some schools are charging now, and we're shooting ourselves in the foot by deterring kids from going to college due to the high cost (or having kids go and have a lifetime of debt) in order for the private student loan sector to make a profit. I don't think that's going to be real good for our future...

Govt intervention is why those books cost 600 bucks\semester at a community college. And your answer to this is more govt intervention via price controls?

 

[mammador]

If people desire knowledge they dont need to pay a lot of money and go to a university to gain it. And you are correct in flooding the market with bachelor degrees will diminish the value of the degree.

Since the upper classes could only go to university long ago, then that's why it had value.

If going to university can ensure a better job or more money, then why not?

 

[OverVolt]

Productive as in our economy needs people with skills. To manage networks, treat the sick, design and construct buildings, etc.

Without them, economies could not grow, and the US gets left behind. it's just the way it is in the modern world economy. And what is real wealth? If you mean services, well that's simply how advanced economies are. unless you advocate going back to agrarianism or something.

Too many chiefs not enough Indians man. Last I checked we weren't delaying sprucing up say, our 70 year old interstate infrastructure because there weren't enough engineers. We are delaying it because we can't afford all the concrete and pavement.

A fact I thought about every time I drove to philly and could see through potholes in the asphalt on bridges to the water below on I-95. More like a pothole/rusthole combo there. It was meant to last 50 years and its pushing 70.

 

[Genx87]

Since the upper classes could only go to university long ago, then that's why it had value.

If going to university can ensure a better job or more money, then why not?

We are approaching a situation where going cant ensure a better paying job. While costing more than ever!

A degree has value due to its scarcity. By making the the scarcity of a degree less, it diminishes the value of the degree.

 

[natto fire]

No, college should be free for everyone. More skilled workers = less dumbasses = more innovation = more cool stuff!

In that scenario, there would be just as many dumbasses, only they now have college degrees. Have you ever heard the phrase "you can't fix stupid"? Ignorance is curable with knowledge, but stupidity is a fundamental inability to either take in knowledge, or apply it erroneously.

Knowledge is never worthless.

That's like saying that your high school diploma is worthless.

Eventually, a college degree will be absolutely required for all but the most skill-less positions --kinda like how it is now for GED holders vs diploma achievers.

If that happens, it will be because corporations have either figured out a way to eliminate all but a handful of jobs through robotics or offshoring, and unemployment is through the roof, or because lots more people will have their master's degree, and that will become the new "college degree".

We are approaching a situation where going cant ensure a better paying job. While costing more than ever!

A degree has value due to its scarcity. By making the the scarcity of a degree less, it diminishes the value of the degree.

This is true, and I'm not sure what is hard to grasp about this idea, seems like something you would pick up in an econ 101 class. If everyone has an associate degree then you need a bachelor's to stand out. Everyone has those then you need a master's or a doctorate to be noticed, and so on, until only valedictorians with the highest honors are getting well paying jobs.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

im always disappointed at how many people think 'forced payment by someone else' = free

 

[IronWing]

College admission standards should be extremely high. No college should offer remedial classes. Students who slacked in high school and decide they want to go to college can pick up remedial classes at private schools on their own dime. The taxpayers covered their education once, no reason to ask the taxpayers to cover it twice.

College should be 100% free to the students and we should tax BoomerD to pay for it.

 

[Mixolydian]

Perhaps what's wrong with the educational system is that those who I would assume to be a recent graduate like Mixo here are graduated with sub-standard reading comprehension skills.

 

[Kaido]

College is not the cause of entitlement issues. Having interviewed a number of college grads I see a pattern.

Have you ever worked before, even a part time job in the Summer?
No, I focused on my school work (and got Bs and Cs).

Describe your ideal job.
A job requiring a PhD in my field but I have no desire to go back to school.

Where do you see yourself in 5 years?
As your boss.

It's not everyone, but a high enough percent to disappoint.

I worked with an intern over the summer and was amazed to see a similar attitude. Everyone is different and this was only a sample of different attitudes, but I know what you mean. This kid thought he was a hotshot on the fast track to success, but had no understanding of corporate culture. I had to drill into his head how politics in the workplace worked, how you have to do stupid, time-wasting stuff sometimes, how sometimes what you do IS meaningless & trivial, but if that's what your boss wants you to do, you do it and don't mouth off about it. And how being a whiz at something doesn't equal a good paycheck or success. I think this image sums it up nicely:

http://imgur.com/cqbdldH

The game is the game, and everyone has to play it if you want the paycheck. I've seen a lot of people who refuse to play and can't hold down a job because they can't deal with corporate insanity. Businesses are just a reflection of human nature, which is why they're all such a mess. Meh.

 

[Kaido]

Govt intervention is why those books cost 600 bucks\semester at a community college. And your answer to this is more govt intervention via price controls?

Wait, do we blame Obama or Bush for this :hmm: :awe:

 

[Mixolydian]

Wait, do we blame Obama or Bush for this :hmm: :awe:

Depends who you voted for. :awe:

 

[BarkingGhostar]

Perhaps what's wrong with the educational system is that those who I would assume to be a recent graduate like Mixo here are graduated with sub-standard reading comprehension skills.

This highlights a real example of how differing learning rates are ignored in college. Only in the last handful of years has my wife's employer (an educational institution beyond HS) realized this and started adopting self-paced and special-needs approaches for greater percentages in success.

BTW, I was identified as having a reading comprehension problem. This was in the 5th grade and has been with me for a long time. My wife finds that notion hard to believe, but the facts are the facts. And yet my employer finds me to be one of the 'intelligent ones' and I work in core networking for a Fortune 500 company with >>100K employees.

Acceptation to the rule? No, just how people need to be gauged and accommodated for the rate at which they can learn. Now, I'm not a proponent of No Child Left Behind, but ignoring a student's slowness (or the opposite) is just ignorance infesting the broken system.

BTW, while some will be quick to jump on the degree factory bandwagon, start running some numbers through the calculator on how colleges and universities (traditional institutions) run by your states and you might find it the costs are justified.

 

[rudeguy]

yes

Make it only for rich, privileged kids.


Then open up a ton of technical schools that actually teach things that are used in the real world. These schools should be government supported and the colleges can be privately funded by the rich people.

It will be wonderful.

 

[Red Storm]

yes

Make it only for rich, privileged kids.


Then open up a ton of technical schools that actually teach things that are used in the real world. These schools should be government supported and the colleges can be privately funded by the rich people.

It will be wonderful.

I like this idea.

 

[OverVolt]

rudeguy is actually on to something. College isn't very good at teaching you the actual skills you need and is all about privileged. Which is moot when everyone can get loans to cover the cost. To the point where someone really poor with no where else to go ends up in college of all places just to get a roof.

 

[ThinClient]

Nope, its degree inflation it won't keep going like this forever, things change, and already are changing.

I really hope that's true

 

[ThinClient]

...although, because this is an education thread, I should have shopped it to say something like "beginned"





.

 

[Imp]

Sure, why not. Only rich people can has da edumucationses.

 

[PrinceofWands]

No, all education is always good. However, there should certainly be significant changes surrounding it (especially cost).

If we WERE going to limit, then we need to do so based SOLELY on cognitive ability, and nothing else. Something like 130+ IQ (yes, I realize it's imperfect, but it's the best measure we have) for a start, and then adjust as needed.

 

[Murloc]

it shouldn't be limited, but it should flush out those who can't be useful with that degree, and that means difficult first year exams.

Also you have to make sure you're providing enough alternatives so that children aren't set on going to college. A dual education system or at least a strong presence of professional secondary schooling helps to do this.
Here most people don't even go to high school thanks to this so there's no degree inflation and the overload of humanities degrees is limited.