Should suicides be included in the gun crime / gun death debate?

[Texashiker]

This liberal anti-gun site I visit from time to time has comments enabled. While some of the anti-gun liberals and I were going at it, someone brought in the total number of gun deaths as compared to car accidents.

With suicides included the total number of gun deaths almost equaled the total number of dead by car wrecks.

I took objection to using suicides as a stat to promote gun control.

I see people who took their own lives as victims of a failed system. Whether it was a chronic disease (cancer, HIV), depression, schizophrenia, money problems,,,, whatever caused those people to take their own lives, they were victims of a system that failed them. Chances are they needed help, did not get the help they needed and as a last resort ended up taking their own lives.

The anti-gun people I was debating had no issue using suicides to promote gun control. In their mind a gun death is a gun death and all numbers should be used.

Taking guns away is not going to stop someone from killing theirself. No gun? Fine, get a rope, drugs, jump off a bridge,,,.

Should suicides be used in the anti-gun / gun control debate?

 

[piasabird]

FBI murder statistics also include people killed by police officers. i.e. suicide by cop.

 

[Texashiker]

FBI murder statistics also include people killed by police officers. i.e. suicide by cop.

That is just it, should we group people suffering from a mental illness in with criminals who were shot during a crime?

 

[TheSiege]

I think so, I have no facts to back this up, but I would venture to guess that people who attempt suicide by gun are much more successful. Where as if they hadn't used the gun, they would have a higher survival rate. I also wonder how many of these suicides are murder/suicides....

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Does it really matter at this point? It should be painfully obvious to everyone by now that the people with the power are going to do whatever the hell they want. If they want gun control they will continue to create gun laws everytime the Dems have power until they reach the end game. If they want deregulation, they will deregulate everytime the Repubs have power. You see, when you vote what you are voting for is which way the government is going to fuck you.

You should see that this is how politics really works. They create fake teams for you to root for and then those teams do the worst possible actions they can while they have power. It is democratic fascism. That is what you live under now. Disagree all you want, but it is plainly obvious to anyone who is really paying attention and does not have their party blinders on.

 

[thraashman]

Taking guns away is not going to stop someone from killing theirself. No gun? Fine, get a rope, drugs, jump off a bridge,,,.

Actually yes, taking guns away is more likely to prevent a suicide. First, suicide is often a spontaneous act by someone at a low point. And a person at a low point is more likely to see that gun as a way out. The time it takes to get a rope and tie a noose or to travel to a tall building or bridge often gives those intent on attempting suicide the time to have second thoughts. And second, suicide attempts by guns are 90% fatal even though they make up a small percentage of implements used in suicide attempts. Suicide attempts by drugs (the most common implement of suicide attempts) are only about 3% fatal. There are actually more successful suicide attempts by guns than drugs even though there are 15 times as many attempts by drugs.

Statistics are just that, statistics. A death from a self inflicted gun shot is still a death by a gun shot. It's part of the overall death by gun statistic. There is then the separate death by gun via murder/violent crime or whatever you want to call it. It too is included in the overall death by gun statistic.

 

[nehalem256]

We should probably separate out gang members that shoot each other too. That is more of a public service than an argument for gun control.

 

[Texashiker]

Actually yes, taking guns away is more likely to prevent a suicide. First, suicide is often a spontaneous act by someone at a low point. And a person at a low point is more likely to see that gun as a way out.

That may be true, but there are also people who suffer for years with a mental illness and battle suicidal thoughts everyday.

How does society separate those who did not get the help the needed, from those who acted on spur on the moment?

I had a close friend who went off the deep end with drugs. For decades he battled schizophrenia and drug addiction. That was until the voices told him the world was coming to an end, and the space shuttle blowing up as a sign.

That time the voices got the better of him and he killed himself. I do not know how he did it. I do know however he never got the help he needed.

 

[brandonb]

I'm on the fence, but I'm leaning no.

Much like DUI's. We have "accidents w/ alcohol related" stats. It could be that someone who had 1 beer was stopped at a light, and got rear ended by a completely sober person. There was no fault in the person stopped at the light who had a beer. But we still add 1 to the "accidents w/ alcohol related." Sure alcohol was technically related in this accident, but the accident was not caused by the person drinking and the fact that they were drinking had no part to play in the accident. It would have happened anyways, even if the person in front was completely sober as well. Doesn't seem quite right.

But that is the black and white scenario. Not all accidents are this easy to judge. So do we even try to attempt to judge that before adding to the stat? It would be up to the person reporting, and their bias, and then its not really scientific

 

[thraashman]

That may be true, but there are also people who suffer for years with a mental illness and battle suicidal thoughts everyday.

How does society separate those who did not get the help the needed, from those who acted on spur on the moment?

I had a close friend who went off the deep end with drugs. For decades he battled schizophrenia and drug addiction. That was until the voices told him the world was coming to an end, and the space shuttle blowing up as a sign.

That time the voices got the better of him and he killed himself. I do not know how he did it. I do know however he never got the help he needed.

I'm not trying to use suicide by gun statistics as an argument for banning or removing guns. Just pointing them out. Is a household with a firearm statistically more likely to have a suicide at some point? The answer is yes. Having people be aware of that can only be a good thing. If you own firearms and suspect someone in your family is depressed, locking the guns up is probably a good call. If you are aware of potential mental health issues in yourself (history of bipolar disorder or something) then it would be best to be aware of that and not own a gun.

Education can only make things better and safer.

 

[Cozarkian]

The real problem with firearm death rates is there is no way to tell how many would be replaced by other causes. How many potential suicides would jump off a bridge or try to overdose on drugs if they didn't have access to a gun? How many murderers would use a knife or a baseball bat if they didn't have access to a gun?

Another problem is determining how many murderers/suicides would still be able to get access to a gun if they were illegal.

Until you can isolate those numbers, stating there is ~11,000 deaths from firearms isn't particularly useful for evaluating whether to ban firearms.

 

[Texashiker]

The answer is yes.

Chances are yes, and chances are the person will be a male.

Men are more likely to use a firearm during suicide then women.

 

[theeedude]

Suicide by gun is a gun death. Is it a gun crime? Not in my accounting, but it is a gun death.

 

[theeedude]

As far as the argument that these people would have killed themselves anyways, maybe, maybe not, depends on the person and situation.
If you already have a gun, pulling a trigger is easy, instantaneous, and near certain death. Other methods of suicide are less convenient, involve planning and/or take time and thus offer opportunity for the person to change his/her mind, or someone else to intervene in the process.
This is something that can be accounted for by comparing successful suicide rates of gun owners (who have owned their gun for at least a month so it's not skewed by people who bought a gun just to kill themselves) to non gun owners. Then you will see what incremental deaths can be attributed specifically to gun ownership compared to the background rate.

 

[alzan]

Yes they should be used. They can certainly be flagged statistically for further delineation but they should be counted as a gun death.

As a gun crime, not sure.

 

[smackababy]

This liberal anti-gun site I visit from time to time has comments enabled. While some of the anti-gun liberals and I were going at it, someone brought in the total number of gun deaths as compared to car accidents.

In 2005, there were 43,000+ motor vehicle deaths. You're telling me that if you include suicides in the gun statistics, it will triple the number?

I just found the numbers from that year. In 2005, there were 31,000 deaths by gun, and 55% of those were suicides. 40% of those were homicides, then 3% were accidents, followed by 2% legal shootings (police killing suspect, Zimmermanning someone, etc).

 

[Texashiker]

I just found the numbers from that year. In 2005, there were 31,000 deaths by gun, and 55% of those were suicides. 40% of those were homicides, then 3% were accidents, followed by 2% legal shootings (police killing suspect, Zimmermanning someone, etc).

The anti-gun movement does not use homicide rates, they just use total gun deaths.

55% is a sad number. That is depressing that more people killed themselves with guns than were murdered.

 

[Oyeve]

It depends. Has there been a botched suicide attempt by a gun that killed an innocent? Like, someone tries to kill themselves with a gun, it goes through the head but hits some innocent person across the street?

 

[Cozarkian]

I just found the numbers from that year.

Why not use the most recent data - 2011 - http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

Motor Vehicle Accidents - 34,677
Injury from Firearm - 32,163 (including 19,766 suicides - 62%)
Total suicides - 38,285 (guns are 52% of those)
Alcohol-induced deaths - 26,256

That last one just surprised me. I didn't realize I'm more likely to be killed by a bottle of alcohol than a gun-wielding maniac (11,101 intentional homicides by gun).

 

[Kadarin]

Suicide by gun should not be considered in the "gun crime" stats, as it skews the numbers.

 

[smackababy]

Why not use the most recent data - 2011 - http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

Motor Vehicle Accidents - 34,677
Injury from Firearm - 32,163 (including 19,766 suicides - 62%)
Total suicides - 38,285 (guns are 52% of those)
Alcohol-induced deaths - 26,256

That last one just surprised me. I didn't realize I'm more likely to be killed by a bottle of alcohol than a gun-wielding maniac (11,101 intentional homicides by gun).

The first search I did gave 2005 numbers and stated they were the latest available from the CDC.

 

[Texashiker]

Motor Vehicle Accidents - 34,677
Injury from Firearm - 32,163 (including 19,766 suicides - 62%)
Total suicides - 38,285 (guns are 52% of those)
Alcohol-induced deaths - 26,256

Those numbers should make us step back and take a look at where our priorities are at.

Why make a big deal out of guns when vehicles and alcohol kill so many people?

Will taking guns out of the home reduce the number of suicides, probably so. But what are the chances of the government taking every gun out of the nation? zero to none.

What we need are laws that allow intervention for those who are depressed and prone to suicide.

 

[nageov3t]

I think so.

I can't find a link right now, but I remember reading a study about Israel where they saw a dramatic reduction in suicides after passing a law requiring cops/military to turn in their weapons when not on-duty.

 

[ivwshane]

Well from what I've been told, guns don't kill people, people do. So it really doesn't matter why the person was killed does it? I mean we don't separate auto accidents based on why they happen when talking about auto accidents do we?

 

[z1ggy]

The crime issue is not what's at hand though I thought? Stats are showing trends over time that crime is going lower. It's hard to tell what that is actually a function of. However, (and I don't have the urge to google this) if gun deaths overall keep rising at a rate higher than the population year over year... Then I think that would be grounds to at least consider suicide by firearm as a relevant talking point.