Should some minimum amount of public service be required of U. S. citizens...

[SlitheryDee]

Inspired by the other thread.

I consider this worthy of a separate thread in that what I'm asking doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the military, although the military should be one acceptable application of the required service time. Also, the service time should be entirely voluntary, and only necessary if one ever wished to vote or hold public office.

I think that this could help weed out less responsible voters. For this to be effective I believe the service time would have to be substantial, perhaps as long as 2 years.

I know limiting the right to vote can definitely be a no-no in some situations, but I don't think this would be one of those so long as the opportunity is offered to everyone equally and can be taken advantage of at any age, with provisions of some sort made to accommodate those who must maintain other employment while performing their service.

What does ATOT think?

 

[spidey07]

I think you've been drinking obama kool aid just a little too much. But to comment on holding public office - you ARE a public servant and performing service just by being in that position. Well at least you are supposed to be.

A better idea would be for every dollar you take from the public in entitlement programs your vote counts less proportionately.

-edit-
And to add, either idea is highly unconstitutional.

 

[Leros]

There are many many many people in this country who I have very little faith in. I don't want to them doing any sort of public service work. I can barely trust them with making my french fries.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: spidey07
for every dollar you take from the public in entitlement programs your vote counts less proportionately.

I'd take it a step further...

Dollars Taken/Dollars Paid = Vote Factor

So when you are young and sucking off the govt teet, you dont get much of a say, then when you are older and are paying it back through taxes (assuming you used your entitlements wisely) then your vote value grows.

Not that I support this idea, too much room for abuse.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: Leros
There are many many many people in this country who I have very little faith in. I don't want to them doing any sort of public service work. I can barely trust them with making my french fries.

:laugh:

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: spidey07
for every dollar you take from the public in entitlement programs your vote counts less proportionately.

I'd take it a step further...

Dollars Taken/Dollars Paid = Vote Factor

So when you are young and sucking off the govt teet, you dont get much of a say, then when you are older and are paying it back through taxes (assuming you used your entitlements wisely) then your vote value grows.

Not that I support this idea, too much room for abuse.

That's why I wouldn't want the voting process tied to money in any way at all. People who REALLY want to vote would put their time, and a significant portion of it, into the system or they wouldn't vote...period. No buyouts under any circumstances, and everyone from the richest to the poorest goes to the same office to apply, gets sorted and assigned jobs in the same system, and does every second of the time necessary. Handicapped people would be dealt with by assigning a job that's within their abilities, not by shortening the time required. Jobs assigned and performance data (all of which would be public knowledge) in the process could even be used later by political candidates as telling indicators of their abilities and willingness to work.

Every single voting individual would have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that they are willing to put their immediate interests aside for a period in order to gain a privilege that many now consider to be next to worthless. Constitutional issues aside, tell me why this wouldn't work?

 

[sdifox]

They're doing their part. Are you? Join the Mobile Infantry and save the world. Service guarantees citizenship.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: sdifox
They're doing their part. Are you? Join the Mobile Infantry and save the world. Service guarantees citizenship.

That's close to where I got this idea from originally.

Read "Expanded Universe" by the same author.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Every single voting individual would have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that they are willing to put their immediate interests aside for a period in order to gain a privilege that many now consider to be next to worthless. Constitutional issues aside, tell me why this wouldn't work?

Because it would absolutely kill our productivity.

 

[arrfep]

I don't think any type of voluntary public service should be expected, however I think that there should be some sort of incentive-based work program. I think Biden brought it up in one of the Democratic Primary debates. Something like, when you turn 18, you can join some kind of civil work corps, building roads or something. Some job that needs to be done, and in some general way contributes to the overall betterness of the country. In exchange for doing this, you get 4 years of public university for free. I think it's win-win. Kid learns how to work for a living, learns what it means to do actual work. Gov't give kid free college, which they most likely would have contributed to with subsidized loans or grants anyway. IMO, it's a good trade-off, one that won't get the Conservatives in a tizzy about socialist work programs (because the reward is actually earned) and one that should suitably satisfy the gimme-gimme Liberals who want everything handed to them.

 

[imported_Imp]

My province requires 40 hours of community service before graduating school-high. The people who don't want to do it just flub it, so it's not that bad. Those too stupid or lazy to get out of it actualy learn something, appreciate it afterwards.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Every single voting individual would have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that they are willing to put their immediate interests aside for a period in order to gain a privilege that many now consider to be next to worthless. Constitutional issues aside, tell me why this wouldn't work?

Because it would absolutely kill our productivity.

I believe that it would not. Such service would have to be set up in such a way that it could be performed concurrently with another job, and it would usually be performed at a young age, although that doesn't always have to be the case. It could even be set up so that a person could break it up into segments that they can perform whenever they have free time, but this would necessarily take a LONG time to complete. A considerable portion of the population would also choose to forgo the service completely, and would be free to live otherwise productive and unhindered lives. The benefits gained from the quality of voters that would be making decisions also can't be overlooked (they're the whole point anyway). Better voting decisions = better economic health for the country in the long run, right?

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Imp
My province requires 40 hours of community service before graduating school-high. The people who don't want to do it just flub it, so it's not that bad. Those too stupid or lazy to get out of it actualy learn something, appreciate it afterwards.

Really? Is this recent? I don't remember doing that at all back in my high school days

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: sdifox
They're doing their part. Are you? Join the Mobile Infantry and save the world. Service guarantees citizenship.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

I believe that it would not. Such service would have to be set up in such a way that it could be performed concurrently with another job, and it would usually be performed at a young age, although that doesn't always have to be the case. It could even be set up so that a person could break it up into segments that they can perform whenever they have free time, but this would necessarily take a LONG time to complete. A considerable portion of the population would also choose to forgo the service completely, and would be free to live otherwise productive and unhindered lives. The benefits gained from the quality of voters that would be making decisions also can't be overlooked (they're the whole point anyway). Better voting decisions = better economic health for the country in the long run, right?

The way I see it you are incenting people to not have a job. In the end the voters would be people that don't produce anything and as such would just be "workers". Sound familiar?

No thanks, I'd rather live a productive and free life. May I ask your age? You would not get a better quality voter, what you would get is voters that expect a handout and continually vote to be given that hand out.

 

[Skeeedunt]

Laziness and apathy already weed out less responsible voters. What's the problem?

 

[nutxo]

nm

 

[imported_Imp]

Ayeee...

Originally posted by: sdifox

Originally posted by: Imp
My province requires 40 hours of community service before graduating school-high. The people who don't want to do it just flub it, so it's not that bad. Those too stupid or lazy to get out of it actualy learn something, appreciate it afterwards.

Really? Is this recent? I don't remember doing that at all back in my high school days

Now I know you're not younger than 28-ish.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Imp
Ayeee...

Originally posted by: sdifox

Originally posted by: Imp
My province requires 40 hours of community service before graduating school-high. The people who don't want to do it just flub it, so it's not that bad. Those too stupid or lazy to get out of it actualy learn something, appreciate it afterwards.

Really? Is this recent? I don't remember doing that at all back in my high school days

Now I know you're not younger than 28-ish.

lol, 28, such a distant memory.

 

[Linflas]

No. Mandatory public service is an infringement of liberty.

 

[Ryan711]

Originally posted by: Linflas
No. Mandatory public service is an infringement of liberty.

more specifically, the 13th ammendment

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: spidey07
The way I see it you are incenting people to not have a job. In the end the voters would be people that don't produce anything and as such would just be "workers". Sound familiar?

No thanks, I'd rather live a productive and free life. May I ask your age? You would not get a better quality voter, what you would get is voters that expect a handout and continually vote to be given that hand out.

How can you come to that conclusion? A person who is in the process of gaining his/her franchise through full-time public service would be without a job in the same sense that someone who is going to college full-time is without a job. Neither situation indicates that the person in question will not produce anything. The service would NOT be short, easy, or well paying. The point is that you would have to really want to vote, to be part of the decision-making process and be willing to place your own interests behind that to some degree, in order to gain the ability. I couldn't guarantee it, but I doubt people who gain the right to vote through this process would be a bunch of wastrels.

Whether they're "just" workers or not isn't as relevant, although I doubt that would be true either, as intelligent people would be the first realize the value of being able to vote under this system. Even they wouldn't be guaranteed the right until they had put in the time and proved something about themselves that might be just as important as intelligence.

This wouldn't interfere with anyone's free and productive life. The service would not be mandatory for anyone who does not place enough importance on voting/public office to undertake it. For those that do, it would obviously be worth it to them.

I'm 26.

 

[marvdmartian]

Too lazy to re-type what I just put into the mandatory military question thread, so I'll quote it here.

I am in favor of a national service of some sort, where a person has a 2 year period after high school where they'll work in the service of their country, earn some money for college (or not, their choice), learn some discipline (not necessarily military discipline, but at least learning how to live with others and take direction from superiors, which is lacking in many high school grads), and take some of their undergrad classes in their spare time. An optional form of this, for those who want to, would be military service. Failure to successfully complete 2 years of service would limit their ability to enjoy some of the services offered by the federal government in the future (student loans, scholarships and grants, for instance). I truly think that this sort of idea would help the vast majority of high school grads these days.

 

[LordMorpheus]

doing my part tomorrow - jury duty.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

How can you come to that conclusion? A person who is in the process of gaining his/her franchise through full-time public service would be without a job in the same sense that someone who is going to college full-time is without a job. Neither situation indicates that the person in question will not produce anything. The service would NOT be short, easy, or well paying. The point is that you would have to really want to vote, to be part of the decision-making process and be willing to place your own interests behind that to some degree, in order to gain the ability. I couldn't guarantee it, but I doubt people who gain the right to vote through this process would be a bunch of wastrels.

Whether they're "just" workers or not isn't as relevant, although I doubt that would be true either, as intelligent people would be the first realize the value of being able to vote under this system. Even they wouldn't be guaranteed the right until they had put in the time and proved something about themselves that might be just as important as intelligence.

This wouldn't interfere with anyone's free and productive life. The service would not be mandatory for anyone who does not place enough importance on voting/public office to undertake it. For those that do, it would obviously be worth it to them.

I'm 26.

Ok, that's about where I figured you were age wise. It's not a slam, just the idealism that I sensed along with a good deal of intelligence.

A person going to college full-time is indeed not a job, their productivity will be realized later and there are plenty of incentives to do so today.

I agree with "would not be short, easy or well paying" and that's where the problem is. You want people to earn the right to vote by service to another ruler. You underestimate the will of people and "intelligent" people to figure this out.

I suggest you read the history of Rome and Greece, and possibly Germany in the 1930s. I don't feel like getting into a history lesson off the top of my head. I respect you opinion but really disagree with it.