should modem or router be plugged into UPS or surge devices

[wpshooter]

In trying to troubleshoot the problem that my bother-in-law was having with his Verizon DSL service, the Verizon telephone tech. asked if he had his Westell 6100 DSL modem hooked into either a UPS or surge device.

He had it plugged into the surge protector.

The original problem that my brother-in-law was having was that the modem would almost on a daily basis not get him connected to the internet, i.e. sometimes he would get all 4 modem lines and could connect fine and then sometime he would not get either the Ethernet light or the Internet light and could not get Internet connection. My thought is that my brother-in-laws DSL modem has an intermittent failure problem.

But my question is why was it that the Verizon tech. support person suggested that he try not plugging the DSL modem into the surge protector but instead plug it directly into an AC wall socket (which by the way, he could not do because there was not a wall socket close enough to the computer and where the telephone jack was for him to try plugging the modem power directly into a wall socket while we had the tech on the phone) ?

Is there some POSSIBLE electrical incompatibility with plugging the power AC adapter of the DSL modem into either a UPS or surge device as opposed to plugging it directly into a wall AC outlet ?

It would seem to me that if anything the DSL modem would get a better/cleaner power supply flow by being plugged into either a UPS or a surge device than being plugged directly into an AC wall socket. I personally, have my own modem power adapter plugged into my surge protector and I have no connectivity problems.

Thanks.

 

[ScottMac]

Not incompatibility, but both of those types of devices have a service life, and can get "a little" flaky as they approach their end-of-usable-life.

People (mostly consumers, but many commercial users as well) never check their UPS batteries. They also never really check the UPS unless they see smoke, or they have a hard failure and it doesn't kick in.

Surge protectors can only take so many hits, at some point they don't offer enough protection, later they offer no protection, and in some cases, they add to the noise on the line and smother the "protected" devices in EMI/RFI or other line noise.

Plugging the modem/router into the AC is usually not meant to be permanent, just diagnostics to rule out the UPS or power strip / surge suppressor.

IT's also kind of an audible check to make sure there are chains of surge bars/ups ... more is not better in this case. Chaining surge protectors almost always reduces the effectiveness. Even a surge bar behind a UPS ... generally a bad idea, just use a power strip if you need more outlets.

 

[JackMDS]

In principle you are right it is better the Modems and Routers would be plugged to Surge protectors.

However some of the surge protectors tend to short or depressed the coming signal.

The techs have on their teleprompter's list a question about it, so they ask. If plugging the devices directly to the line suddenly makes the problem go away (which is rarely happens) then the person should look for an other better Surge Protector that does not affect his system.

 

[wpshooter]

Can you expound upon "short or depress the coming signal" ?

Thanks.

 

[Modelworks]

Another issue with surge protectors / some UPS , is that some have jacks for plugging the phone line into the surge protector to protect the phone line itself. If you use that jack with DSL then it may not allow a reliable connection. The other thing to check in the home is how many other devices he has plugged in to the phone line. Those little dsl filters they give to put before phones can actually hurt the signal for the DSL if there are too many on the line.

I recommend anyone who has a home with DSL to run a main line straight from the box the phone company installs on the outside of the home to the modem. They sell boxes with splitters for DSL built into the box. So the modem has a direct line, and all the other phones in the home have their own line.
It is something a home owner can do for under $40
One such box.
http://www.thetelecomspot.com/...-22104.html#googlebase

 

[JackMDS]

Originally posted by: wpshooter
Can you expound upon "short or depress the coming signal" ?

Thanks.

Many Surge protectors have Capacitors, and even without them the whole protection circuitry projects capacitance to the lines.

Since Surge spikes are very fast the capacitance value thta short them out can be low and should Not affect the communication signal that is at a lower frequency (thus depressed, or shorts only at higher capacitance).

Some badly designed units, or units at EOL (as mentioned above by Scott) can introduce higher capacitance to the signal flow and affect the communication signal too.

If you are Not familiar with Capacitors and what they do in electrical circuits, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor

 

[wpshooter]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Another issue with surge protectors / some UPS , is that some have jacks for plugging the phone line into the surge protector to protect the phone line itself. If you use that jack with DSL then it may not allow a reliable connection. The other thing to check in the home is how many other devices he has plugged in to the phone line. Those little dsl filters they give to put before phones can actually hurt the signal for the DSL if there are too many on the line.

I recommend anyone who has a home with DSL to run a main line straight from the box the phone company installs on the outside of the home to the modem. They sell boxes with splitters for DSL built into the box. So the modem has a direct line, and all the other phones in the home have their own line.
It is something a home owner can do for under $40
One such box.
http://www.thetelecomspot.com/...-22104.html#googlebase

Thanks, for that link, I will be checking into that, sounds interesting.

 

[Modelworks]

better pic of an outdoor splitter
http://www.homephonewiring.com/images/649a1.jpg

 

[JackMDS]

Splitter at the entry point is always a good idea.

However, I fail to see how it protects from Surges and Spikes that usually occur during bad weather and come from the external part of the system.

 

[westom]

What did you think that UPS or surge protector is supposed to do?

UPS - provides power during blackouts and extreme brownouts.

Surge protector - stops what three miles of sky could not? Nonsense. And yet that is what a protector without a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth would do.

Another noted the protector installed (for free) by the telco. If connected that short (no sharp wire bends, separated from other non-ground wires, etc) to single point earth ground, then no surge need enter a building seeking earth destructively through household electronics.

That concept must apply to all incoming utility wires. But any protector adjacent to electronics simply gives that surge more wires to find earth ground - too often destructively - through nearby appliances. And it also does not claim protection in its numeric specs.

And yes, it also 'eats' DSL signals. Just another in a long list of problems created by protectors sold only on the word "protector" - not on what its numeric specs really say. Because the word ?protector? sound like ?protection?, does that mean it provides protection? View its manufacturer specs sheets to learn what is missing.

So the question: what is the problem? And then what is each box supposed to do? What does he want those expensive boxes to do?

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
Splitter at the entry point is always a good idea.

However, I fail to see how it protects from Surges and Spikes that usually occur during bad weather and come from the external part of the system.

I really don't worry about surges on the telephone line. DSL modems are so cheap that I would rather pay $30 to replace the modem than pay $30 to put a surge suppressor on the line that will degrade performance. The spark gap protection the telco uses is good enough for me.

Worst case you burn out the modem. The modems connection to the telco line is isolated to 4KV+ on the inside, so not worried about it causing damage any further like to routers or pc. Also many dsl modems have internal surge suppressors so there is no need for external ones.

 

[westom]

I really don't worry about surges on the telephone line. ...

You have assumed surged enter on the phone line. Many make that mistake. They assume surges are like waves on a beach. The surge crashes on a modem. But surges are electricity - works completely different.

A surge is a connection between cloud and earthborne charges. First the current flows everywhere in that path 'cloud to earth'. Then later, something in that path fails - is unnecessarily damaged. A typical path for modem damage - incoming on AC electric, through modem, to earth ground via the telco installed 'whole house' protector.

If your modem is at risk to surges, then so is everything in the house. The modem would only be a canary in the coalmine. But then effective protection that costs less money means a surge need not enter the building. The less expensive solution means protection inside every appliance is not at risk. The effective solution means surge energy gets dissipated harmlessly in earth - does not go hunting for appliances inside the house.

If your DSL modem is at risk, then so is your dishwasher, furnace, bathroom GFCIs, and the one thing you most need during a surge: smoke detectors.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: westom

I really don't worry about surges on the telephone line. ...

You have assumed surged enter on the phone line. Many make that mistake.

No I said I don't worry about surges on the telephone line not that they were the only way a surge enters a building.
I'm personally not concerned with AC surges. I have more than ample coverage for those. My modem and router run off pure DC isolated from AC, so they are the least of my worries.

 

[westom]

If that DC gets energy from AC, it is not isolated. All electronics have some of the best isolation. Rated for thousands of volts. What does a surge do? Increase voltage has high as necessary to blow through isolation.

Surge damage occurs when something tries to stop (isolate from) a surge. That voltage increase times current means increased energy - destruction. Surge protection is about not creating that voltage increase. To divert (conduct, shunt, connect) current to earth with the least amount of voltage. No voltage means no energy dissipated.

Any exterior connection that may provide power for that DC source is an incoming surge path. If isolated DC works, well, that is what computer power supplies are required to do - provide DC with significant isolation from AC mains.

Once permitted inside a building (even on AC safety ground wires), then a surge may find a destructive path to earth via modem and phone line. Surge protection is about keeping energy outside the building and harmlessly dissipated in earth. Nothing stops surges. That isolated DC gets power from something external.


Returning to the OP's questions: when will a DSL modem see 'dirtiest' power? When powered by a UPS in battery backup mode. When not in battery backup mode, the cleanest power is delivered directly and unimpeded by AC mains. Same unobstructed path a surge may use to get to that modem.

 

[wpshooter]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
better pic of an outdoor splitter
http://www.homephonewiring.com/images/649a1.jpg

Modelworks:

Can you tell me why using the outdoor splitter would provide a better solutions than the indoor filters that are provided to me (in this case) by Verizon ?

I called Verizon and asked them about this and THEY said that using the filters that they provide will do exactly the same thing that the outdoor DSL POTS splitter will do. Do they know what they are talking about ?

Thanks.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: wpshooter

Originally posted by: Modelworks
better pic of an outdoor splitter
http://www.homephonewiring.com/images/649a1.jpg

Modelworks:

Can you tell me why using the outdoor splitter would provide a better solutions than the indoor filters that are provided to me (in this case) by Verizon ?

I called Verizon and asked them about this and THEY said that using the filters that they provide will do exactly the same thing that the outdoor DSL POTS splitter will do. Do they know what they are talking about ?

Thanks.

An outdoor splitter at the nid has a couple advantages. It places the filter before the home wiring so DSL signals are only being passed to the modem and its wiring rather than having DSL signals on every phone line in the home which can add noise to the line. It also provides a direct connection for the modem rather than sharing wiring that could be daisy chained from jack to jack in the home. The last thing it does is allow only one filter to be used for the entire home rather than a filter for each phone which degrades the connection.

The reason telco like Verizon don't install them often is two fold. One it cost a lot more than the little $1.99 filters they give out. Two it takes more labor to install so a self install kit is out.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: westom
If that DC gets energy from AC, it is not isolated. All electronics have some of the best isolation. Rated for thousands of volts. What does a surge do? Increase voltage has high as necessary to blow through isolation.

My workstation and router + modem are powered by a online UPS that always runs off the battery. It uses AC to keep the batteries charged but the charging system is isolated from the batteries to 15KV . The connection between the homes power and the workstation shows as infinite using a 20Mohm meter.

 

[JackMDS]

While there are General rules that apply to most situations, there are differences in regards to the nature of the geographical locations, and the electrical system in the specific location.

Thus making direct inferences on Ones specific location and its setting while insisting that it is a universal solution to every ones situation and Budget, is Not fair (to say the least).

 

[wpshooter]

[/quote]

An outdoor splitter at the nid has a couple advantages. It places the filter before the home wiring so DSL signals are only being passed to the modem and its wiring rather than having DSL signals on every phone line in the home which can add noise to the line. It also provides a direct connection for the modem rather than sharing wiring that could be daisy chained from jack to jack in the home. The last thing it does is allow only one filter to be used for the entire home rather than a filter for each phone which degrades the connection.

The reason telco like Verizon don't install them often is two fold. One it cost a lot more than the little $1.99 filters they give out. Two it takes more labor to install so a self install kit is out.

[/quote]

Modelworks:

For this to be true, would not the wall/telephone jack that the DSL modem is plugged into have to be the FIRST telephone jack on the in house telephone wiring system (which I think in my case might be true since I have my DSL modem hooked into my jack in the kitchen which is just adjacent to the back wall of the apartment where the utilities including telephone service comes into the apartment) ?

I have only 1 telephone number/line in my apartment. There are actually only 2 telephone jacks in the entire apartment (1 downstairs in the kitchen and 1 upstairs in the spare bedroom).

You are not saying that a SEPARATE wiring would have to come off of the splitter and go directly to just the jack on which the modem is going to be hooked to are you ?

And conversely, ANOTHER SEPARATE wiring would have to come off of the splitter to cover the telephone/voice services on any other jacks in the apartment are you ?

Or is all of this SIGNAL SPLITTING done strickly electronically over the SAME/ONE in house telephone wiring system ?

Thanks.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: wpshooter





I have only 1 telephone number/line in my apartment. There are actually only 2 telephone jacks in the entire apartment (1 downstairs in the kitchen and 1 upstairs in the spare bedroom).

You are not saying that a SEPARATE wiring would have to come off of the splitter and go directly to just the jack on which the modem is going to be hooked to are you ?

And conversely, ANOTHER SEPARATE wiring would have to come off of the splitter to cover the telephone/voice services on any other jacks in the apartment are you ?

Or is all of this SIGNAL SPLITTING done strickly electronically over the SAME/ONE in house telephone wiring system ?

Thanks.

Normally there is 4 wires in a home telephone wire, divided into two pairs. The standard is red+green and yellow + black. Red and green are what is normally wired , yellow and black are usually not connected to anything. The outdoor splitters are designed so that you can place all the voice connections on the red+green and the data on yellow+black. So on the jack that is for data you would connect the yellow+black wires, but not the red+green. Or you can use a two line jack and place the red green wires on the top jack for voice and the yellow black wires on the bottom for data.

That keeps the modem on its own connection without the signal running through the entire home.

 

[wpshooter]

Thanks.

I had better print this because I will probably not remember it if & when I get ready to try this.

 

[westom]

My workstation and router + modem are powered by a online UPS that always runs off the battery. It uses AC to keep the batteries charged but the charging system is isolated from the batteries to 15KV .

No UPS runs directly from batteries. That is a popular myth. A UPS closest to 'running from a battery' costs $500 and up.

Meanwhile, if your battery is being charged by AC, then it is a direct connection to AC for numerous electrical reason. 1) If your reasoning was true, then no surge gets through utility transformers that have much better isolation. And yet that is one source of the most common type of surges. I will not explain the various reasons why. But when a surge gets through the transformer, the current is going the same direction on all wires (positive and negative). 2) What does the battery see? Same current (and same voltage) moving in the same direction on both wires. As the surge passes by the battery, the battery sees zero voltage different - no surge.

Batteries stopping the typically destructive surges are classic myths. Nothing stops or isolates a surge. 3) Meanwhile, while you were measuring 20 Mohms resistance (when you should have been measuring impedance), the same path became near zero impedance when a surge creates a conductive path across that isolation. But again, how do you think surges easily get through anything that might stop them? Why do facilities that can never have damage not use that isolation technique?

4) You have claimed millimeters of separation will stop a surge. The same surge could not be stopped by three miles of sky. Air being one of the best electrical insulators available. 5) Why do you think your UPS (that does not even claim that protection in its own numeric specs) provides that protection?

Lightning struck a church steeple. Why? Because even 60 feet of wood is an electrical conductor. How did Franklin protect that church? 6) If 70 feet of wood cannot stop a surge, how will millimeters inside your UPS do that?

7) Franklin demonstrated the only thing that *stops* a surge. Give that surge an even more conductive path to earth - lightning rod.

8) Protection is earth ground. Just another reason why your UPS does not list each kind of surge and protection from that surge. It has all but no earth ground. Does not claim that protection for good reason. Well, it does claim protection ? subjectively ? in a sales brochure. Even near zero protection is called ?surge protection?.

9) Rather than further explain this technology, let the National Instituted of Science and Technology demonstrate why your assumed protection does not exist:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your
> surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
> ground. The best surge protection in the world can
> be useless if grounding is not done properly.

10) Your surge protection inside a UPS, well, the same protection is already inside every computer.

11) Did you see that safety ground wire? What is a common path for surge damage to a computer? Shunted from black (hot) wire to green (safety ground) wire by a nearby protector (or exact same circuit in a UPS). Surge now bypasses protection inside the computer, enters motherboard, through modem or NIC, eventually to earth ground. We even traced this damage by replacing every damaged IC. How often have you performed autopsies of surge damage AND then make electronics work by replacing semiconductors?

12) Surges are constant current. That means voltage increases as high as necessary to blow through that isolation. Any attempt to stop (isolation) a surge means higher voltage and therefore higher energy dissipated destructively. Well proven protection is diverting that energy harmlessly to earth as Franklin demonstrated in 1752, as stated by the NIST, and as done in every telco switching center throughout the world. Diverting energy so that a high voltage is not created. High current with no high voltage: no destructive energy.

13) If your isolation worked, then why is it not used in telephone switching centers for the past 100 years? Thirteen reasons why your UPS does not provide protection and does not do the isolation you have assumed. Do you need more?

We did this stuff as engineers. Unfortunately, what you posted is popular where myths and hearsay are promoted and where the numbers are never provided. That UPS is a direct connection from AC mains through your modem to earth ground ? to a surge.

Another recently learned the same the hard way:
http://www.dcmessageboards.com...ot-t16760.html&p=33252

How many generations have you been doing this stuff? Was that reason 14?

 

[westom]

Originally posted by: wpshooter
I had better print this because I will probably not remember it if & when I get ready to try this.

Allow me to present the same concept (solution) from a different perspective.

DSL is a radio wave broadcast on a wire (rather than in the air). POTS (plain old telephone service) devices eat those radio waves. Any radio wave blocked by a filter will not be eaten by the telephone or answering machine.

So that wires inside the house also do not 'eat' that radio wave, we locate the filter closer to where telephone wires enter the building.

IOW run a CAT3 or CAT5 wire from the DSL modem directly to that NID. Route all other interior phone wires through a filter. Generally, I locate that filter inside using the filter provided by Verizon, et al with their modem. And locate that filter inside to protect it from the weather.

Now any stray nail, or unknown telco surge protector, or mislocated wire (after the filter) will not 'eat' DSL signals.

I do not use that splitter box. I simply connect both the DSL wire and the wire from that nearby filter to the same NID - if necessary using a $5 junction box from Lowes and making the junction inside (protected from the weather).

Bottom line - anything that is not a DSL modem may destructively 'eat' DSL signals. Any signal blocked by the filter cannot be 'eaten'.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: westom

My workstation and router + modem are powered by a online UPS that always runs off the battery. It uses AC to keep the batteries charged but the charging system is isolated from the batteries to 15KV .

No UPS runs directly from batteries. That is a popular myth. A UPS closest to 'running from a battery' costs $500 and up.

It is no myth. My UPS is a double conversion unit so it has zero switching time because the pc is always running off the inverter.

Meanwhile, if your battery is being charged by AC, then it is a direct connection to AC for numerous electrical reason. 1) If your reasoning was true, then no surge gets through utility transformers that have much better isolation. And yet that is one source of the most common type of surges. I will not explain the various reasons why. But when a surge gets through the transformer, the current is going the same direction on all wires (positive and negative). 2) What does the battery see? Same current (and same voltage) moving in the same direction on both wires. As the surge passes by the battery, the battery sees zero voltage different - no surge.

look up crowbar in google. The SCR in my case is a through hole mount capable of over 100amps

4) You have claimed millimeters of separation will stop a surge. The same surge could not be stopped by three miles of sky. Air being one of the best electrical insulators available. 5) Why do you think your UPS (that does not even claim that protection in its own numeric specs) provides that protection?

Look up spark gap.

11) Did you see that safety ground wire? What is a common path for surge damage to a computer? Shunted from black (hot) wire to green (safety ground) wire by a nearby protector (or exact same circuit in a UPS). Surge now bypasses protection inside the computer, enters motherboard, through modem or NIC, eventually to earth ground. We even traced this damage by replacing every damaged IC. How often have you performed autopsies of surge damage AND then make electronics work by replacing semiconductors?

There is no path to ground on the output of my UPS. I can stick a wire in its outlets and put it in my mouth while standing on the ground and nothing will happen.


I have taken apart more circuit boards than I care to remember. I've been an EE for over 18 years now.

If your isolation worked, then why is it not used in telephone switching centers for the past 100 years? Thirteen reasons why your UPS does not provide protection and does not do the isolation you have assumed. Do you need more?

It is used in telephone systems and many other systems. Google isolation transformer and optoisolators.

We did this stuff as engineers. Unfortunately, what you posted is popular where myths and hearsay are promoted and where the numbers are never provided. That UPS is a direct connection from AC mains through your modem to earth ground ? to a surge.

You are making assumptions that are not always true. The UPS I use does not have a direct connection between the output and the input.


Nothing can stop every surge, but my current setup is pretty damn good for the majority of them.

 

[westom]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
It is no myth. My UPS is a double conversion unit so it has zero switching time because the pc is always running off the inverter....

look up crowbar in google. The SCR in my case is a through hole mount capable of over 100amps

Chances are I was working with crowbars long before you existed. Used a variation of one in a 1960s alarm design. But you are going to tell me how crowbars work? Do you routinely insult me with nonsense and our education system by misreading so much?

All 14 points apply to and were written with double conversion UPSes specifically in mind. A surge passes through without the battery even seeing the surge. You still never grasped even that simplest concept. Safety ground completely bypasses your UPS. Even this glaringly obvious fact. If your double conversion is that effective, then you don't need a UPS. DSL's power supply does everything that UPS does - or better. If your double conversion UPS provides surge protection, then nobody need a UPS. Sufficient isolation already in every appliance makes your UPS completely unnecessary.

Look up spark gap. It's called three miles of sky. Your silly millimeter isolation (a spark gap) will stop what a three mile spark gap cannot stop? Was that too complicated? Even after reality was put forth, you still argue same nonsense?

Your UPS has no earth ground. You admit it repeatedly. Therefore, as the NIST makes so bluntly obvious, your UPS provides no surge protection. How can you be so naive as to admit your UPS has no earthing, then say no earthing means surge protection? Brainwashing? Your UPS knowledge is a chain of classic myths promoted in retail stores.

Each and every 14 point states your UPS does not provide surge protection. And then view manufacturer specifications. Where do you post those numeric specs? You do not for one simple reason. No numbers make your protection claims. I did not realize how easily some will swallow retail store propaganda. Even the manufacturer does not make those claims.

Who would be so deceived to spent $500+ on a UPS to ineffectively protect a $30 modem. No one with minimal knowledge would do that especially when effective protection costs about $1 per protected appliance. But if you did, we have a deal on an East River bridge for you.

Did you bush off even a simplest fact? You repeatedly admit your UPS has no earthing. No earth ground means no surge protection. How much easier and obvious should the NIST make it? Why do you routinely ignore what you don't want to know?
> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding
> is not done properly.