Should I reinforce these floor joists?

[NetWareHead]

Link to google album: https://goo.gl/photos/Vdmp6u9c46GLwbTJ9

These pictures detail my fixer-upper house. 2 family house with identical floor plans stacked on top of one another. I am renovating the bathrooms and removed the drop ceiling in first floor bathroom to reveal floor joists for second floor bathroom. One pic details the second floor demolished bathroom and the rest of the pics detail under the bathroom focusing on the joists.

As you can see, a plumber in the past removed alot of joist (almost too much) it seems to run some pipes to the tub. In addition, the bathroom has seen some water damage (120 year old house) so the joists are cracking etc...

The combination of excessive removal with water damaged cracked joists is concerning me. Those floor joists support a heavy cast iron tub and toilet. I feel the load on these joists is certain to increase once the tub is filled with water and a tenant begins to use it regularly.

The ceiling is open, entire building is vacant so if there ever was a time to do something about this, it is now. One of my construction buddies told me it would not hurt to sister these joists with some fresh dimensional lumber. What would you guys do? Opinions appreciated...

 

[echo4747]

Link to google album: https://goo.gl/photos/Vdmp6u9c46GLwbTJ9

These pictures detail my fixer-upper house. 2 family house with identical floor plans stacked on top of one another. I am renovating the bathrooms and removed the drop ceiling in first floor bathroom to reveal floor joists for second floor bathroom. One pic details the second floor demolished bathroom and the rest of the pics detail under the bathroom focusing on the joists.

As you can see, a plumber in the past removed alot of joist (almost too much) it seems to run some pipes to the tub. In addition, the bathroom has seen some water damage (120 year old house) so the joists are cracking etc...

The combination of excessive removal with water damaged cracked joists is concerning me. Those floor joists support a heavy cast iron tub and toilet. I feel the load on these joists is certain to increase once the tub is filled with water and a tenant begins to use it regularly.

The ceiling is open, entire building is vacant so if there ever was a time to do something about this, it is now. One of my construction buddies told me it would not hurt to sister these joists with some fresh dimensional lumber. What would you guys do? Opinions appreciated...

Replacing these joists is probably the best and a substantial amount of work. Tough to say it is necessary . How does the water damaged wood feel? Does it seem spongy/soft or did it dry out and the stained area seem solid? As far as the joist that was notched away you may be able to bolster it with something like a 1/4 X3 flatbar steel or aluminum if you have the room on both sides to span the notched section.

 

[NetWareHead]

Replacing these joists is probably the best and a substantial amount of work. Tough to say it is necessary . How does the water damaged wood feel? Does it seem spongy/soft or did it dry out and the stained area seem solid? As far as the joist that was notched away you may be able to bolster it with something like a 1/4 X3 flatbar steel or aluminum if you have the room on both sides to span the notched section.

They feel fine and are dry; not spongy or soggy. The floor is a little squeaky when standing on it.

Rather than replacing them which I agree will be alot of work, could they be sistered? Buddy told me just to get a similar lenght piece of lumber and install it next to the weakened joist. Drill and secure 2-3 carriage bolts and tighten with a nut.

 

[tracerbullet]

I'm not a structural engineer or a carpenter, but FWIW as a mechanical engineer and someone who's owned old houses I would definitely want to shore those up. From the pictures at least that really doesn't look good.

Can you have a 2nd person go upstairs and jump / bounce up and down while you take a look from the basement? I wouldn't be surprised if you see some motion.

I'm not sure who you'd go to for specific recommendations on what to do, but I'd definitely do something.

 

[echo4747]

They feel fine and are dry; not spongy or soggy. The floor is a little squeaky when standing on it.

Rather than replacing them which I agree will be alot of work, could they be sistered? Buddy told me just to get a similar lenght piece of lumber and install it next to the weakened joist. Drill and secure 2-3 carriage bolts and tighten with a nut.

You could sister these with lumber like your buddy said. The new lumber you put in needs to extend past the damaged area. I would still try to get some steel or aluminum flat stock for the joist that is notched. If you could get flat stock on both sides of that notched joist and nut and bolt that ...even better.

 

[Greenman]

Gota love the patchwork quilt you so often find in old houses.

The joist under the tub needs attention. The notch in it is way over sized. Hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like you might have to drop the ceiling for it to work. It also looks like there is no trap on the tub.
The window in the tub/shower also looks like a future problem. It should have rotted out 50 years back. If you replace it be sure to use tempered glass.

 

[NetWareHead]

Gota love the patchwork quilt you so often find in old houses.

The joist under the tub needs attention. The notch in it is way over sized. Hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like you might have to drop the ceiling for it to work. It also looks like there is no trap on the tub.
The window in the tub/shower also looks like a future problem. It should have rotted out 50 years back. If you replace it be sure to use tempered glass.

The joist under the tub is what got my attention in the first place. I think the work is appalling if you ask me. I have a plumber coming to replace all of that piping due the the cast iron sewer stack being cracked. So I will move all of those water supplies into the wall and run them vertically into the basement so they wont have to cross joists. With the plumbing out of the way, there will be room to sister the joists.

The tub under the tub has a leaky drum trap, which is illegal these days. The drop ceiling will be discarded and once I remove the plumbing from the ceiling, I may drywall it instead.

I dont know how that window has survived but I can only guess the shower was a recent addition; bathrooms that old typically were tubs only and the wooden window would have remained dry. Have a tempered glass window on order that is stuitable for moist environment.

 

[Greenman]

Sounds like you're addressing it the right way. Post a few pics as the work progresses.

 

[paperfist]

You want to use some PL Premium glue too before your screw the joists together.

 

[Greenman]

You want to use some PL Premium glue too before your screw the joists together.

Not a bad idea. Though he should use nails, lags, or bolts, screws don't have much sheer strength.

 

[Blain]

You could rip some 3/4" plywood and sandwich the old beams in between.
Construction adhesive along with carriage bolts & nuts would give you a strong bond.

 

[mizzou]

you opened it up, now you are responsible for a decent repair. In my opinion, have your county/city inspector come by and take a look since they will more then likely have to approve your design anyway.

 

[crashtech]

I don't think sistering is much good unless you can get the new beam to span from one load bearing wall to another.

 

[boomerang]

you opened it up, now you are responsible for a decent repair. In my opinion, have your county/city inspector come by and take a look since they will more then likely have to approve your design anyway.

The last thing I'd do is get people involved that don't need to be involved. Especially in this case.

The inspector's job is to inspect the work done not to give advice on how to do it. And the more trips the inspector can make out to the place, the more money the municipality rakes in. It's in his best interest to make it out as often as is possible. The OP will end up with a rough inspection, plumbing inspection, electrical inspection, you name it. Permits will be required, etc. All sorts of code violations could be found with the walls opened up, it will potentially be a huge can of worms.

Bad advice IMO.

 

[NetWareHead]

you opened it up, now you are responsible for a decent repair. In my opinion, have your county/city inspector come by and take a look since they will more then likely have to approve your design anyway.

I'm not involving an inspector in this repair. It doesn't mean I'm taking shortcuts. The joists can be strengthened using good construction techniques and keeping the structure sound. Some of the things the city asks for is plain rediculous. Pull a permit if I want to hang drywall? If I replace a kitchen cabinet or counter?? No way I'm inviting an inspector to see my "illegal" counter, flooring etc.... It's a money grab if you ask me...

 

[DrPizza]

I'm not involving an inspector in this repair. It doesn't mean I'm taking shortcuts. The joists can be strengthened using good construction techniques and keeping the structure sound. Some of the things the city asks for is plain rediculous. Pull a permit if I want to hang drywall? If I replace a kitchen cabinet or counter?? No way I'm inviting an inspector to see my "illegal" counter, flooring etc.... It's a money grab if you ask me...

Your area requires a permit for drywall?! Egads! Agreed 100% - that's a money grab.

 

[Greenman]

I'm not involving an inspector in this repair. It doesn't mean I'm taking shortcuts. The joists can be strengthened using good construction techniques and keeping the structure sound. Some of the things the city asks for is plain rediculous. Pull a permit if I want to hang drywall? If I replace a kitchen cabinet or counter?? No way I'm inviting an inspector to see my "illegal" counter, flooring etc.... It's a money grab if you ask me...

You're just a little past a repair. That's full remodel you're doing. Some things to consider before deciding that there won't be a permit involved.
Some states have disclosure laws requiring you to disclose any defects, or work done without a permit. I know a fellow who got nailed for non-permitted work years after the house sold. It cost him a bundle.
Some insurance company's won't insure work done without a permit, and check records if they have a damage claim and the construction appears new. I've never heard of anyone ever getting screwed because of that one, but it could happen.
Having a building permit and inspection record does offer you some protection if there is a failure after you've sold and moved on.

I get why people don't want the building department involved, it can be a real pain in the ass, but I've also seen a lot of work that failed because the contractor didn't pull a permit and cut a lot of corners.

Do as you see fit, but understand all of the ramifications of your decision before you proceed. It's also worth noting that there is a fair bit of talent right here if you have questions, Humpy, DrPizza, Skyking, and a few others know quite a bit about building.

 

[boomerang]

Having a building permit and inspection record does offer you some protection if there is a failure after you've sold and moved on.

Just relating a story that revolves around your post. A family friend and his wife moved to a new condo development that was just built. He ended up being the head of the condo association. Shortly after the development was mostly sold out, residents started having issues with basements getting wet and flooding.

The grading was done incorrectly throughout the development. The fix was that every newly planted tree, shrub and bed had to be torn out along with the destruction of every blade of grass in order for heavy equipment to get in and regrade the entire development. The problem? A new development with nowhere near enough reserves to perform the work. The owners were adamant that their maintenance fees not be raised.

The result? Wet and flooding basements.

He went to the city and explained to them that he felt they were responsible for the situation as they had bought off on the final grading. They more or less told him to piss off. Right now he is trying to convince the residents of the need to hire legal counsel in what will be a long battle against the municipality with no guarantee of any positive results.

He can't sell the place with the water issues nor can any other residents. The unsold units can't be sold and the developer has declared bankruptcy, etc.

Shit rolls downhill and the homeowner is at the bottom of that hill.

My point is that it's a messed up world with no guarantee of anything.

 

[JEDIYoda]

.

you opened it up, now you are responsible for a decent repair. In my opinion, have your county/city inspector come by and take a look since they will more then likely have to approve your design anyway.

That is not very good advice! No he doesw not need to get an inspector to get involved!

 

[mizzou]

.That is not very good advice! No he doesw not need to get an inspector to get involved!

I never do major work without an approved inspection. I just don't! This house sounds like it's going to be a rental property, so when it comes to someone's safety and health, it is in their best interests and yours to ensure there are no major code violations. God forbid the next tenant is taking a bubble bath with her new child in the pretty cast iron tub and falls through the floor, surrounded by new lumber and rotted lumber.

Having the inspector come by before you even do anything can help you identify specific areas of concerns and how to best approach the problem from the city/county perspective. That way you don't get a big surprise or smack in the face when the inspector finally does show up when he sees you and your buddy contractor with a 24ft dumpster outside filled to the brim with structural materials.

but if you already started work where you should have had a permit and didn't, then yeah, I can see why it's a bad idea

 

[Greenman]

Just relating a story that revolves around your post. A family friend and his wife moved to a new condo development that was just built. He ended up being the head of the condo association. Shortly after the development was mostly sold out, residents started having issues with basements getting wet and flooding.

The grading was done incorrectly throughout the development. The fix was that every newly planted tree, shrub and bed had to be torn out along with the destruction of every blade of grass in order for heavy equipment to get in and regrade the entire development. The problem? A new development with nowhere near enough reserves to perform the work. The owners were adamant that their maintenance fees not be raised.

The result? Wet and flooding basements.

He went to the city and explained to them that he felt they were responsible for the situation as they had bought off on the final grading. They more or less told him to piss off. Right now he is trying to convince the residents of the need to hire legal counsel in what will be a long battle against the municipality with no guarantee of any positive results.

He can't sell the place with the water issues nor can any other residents. The unsold units can't be sold and the developer has declared bankruptcy, etc.

Shit rolls downhill and the homeowner is at the bottom of that hill.

My point is that it's a messed up world with no guarantee of anything.

The bottom line is that no municipality assumes responsibility for the work they inspect, your friend won't get anywhere suing the city. What they have is a latent defect case, and even though the developer is out of business, they may still be able to collect from the insurance carrier they had at the time. They need legal counsel.

 

[crashtech]

Long-term, it's a risky decision not to get proper inspections. I suppose every do-it-yourselfer considers themselves above such things, just like we are all great drivers, and it's the always the other guy that is the problem.

 

[Aikouka]

Aren't a good number of those cuts against international building code? I'm certainly no expert on the code, but I have done a little reading when looking how to do wiring properly. However, I recall seeing that you're only allowed to cut so much out of the board, you aren't supposed to cut a certain distance from the sides of the board, and you aren't supposed to cut close to the top or bottom edges. I'm pretty sure I see cuts in those photos that go against all three of those.

 

[NetWareHead]

Your area requires a permit for drywall?! Egads! Agreed 100% - that's a money grab.

Yes I also need a permit for any low voltage wiring work (TV, phone, data, alarm etc...). Like when I rewired my doorbell and pulled RG6 for cable TV, those required a permit. Additionlly, since its a multi family dwelling, I should have had a "licensed contractor" in to pull cable TV. Get the hell out of here... :thumbsdown:

Another one. Each installation of a new electrical outlet will be billed at $4.00

Other permits like for electrical, plumbing are calculated by taking the estimated cost of the work to be permitted and multiplying by a set rate. Thats the cost of the permit.

We also cant forget that the electrician, plumber etc... will have to make himself available for the inspection and show the inspector around. So when your electrician quotes you $85 to run a new circuit and install a new breaker for your electric clothes dryer, if you permit this work, the cost doubles (ballpark estimate).

 

[NetWareHead]

I suppose every do-it-yourselfer considers themselves above such things, just like we are all great drivers, and it's the always the other guy that is the problem.

The logic behind creating this thread was to confirm a gut instinct I had regarding the joists and their load bearing capacity and ask people more knowledgeable than me as to how I should fix it. I dont pretend to know everything or think I can swing a hammer better than Bob Vila. Your evaluation of do-it-yourselfers is off the mark and offers nothing to this thread.

Whether or not I pull a permit has nothing to do with the quality of any work I do on my properties or the way I intend to remedy this joist problem. Even my contracters told me they dont care if I pull a permit or not; they are still going to do the work to code and according to their own workmanship standards. If I choose to do the work myself, I follow the same guideline.

Actually there will be one thing I will permit in this renovation. The house has split electric service (two family house). I will be adding a third breaker panel and meter outside the house. Such an upgrade is highly visible and has to involve the electrical utility so a permit will be pulled.