Should gender identity matter in E-sports?

[madoka]

While everyone can see the controversy in gender identity in gender specific sports, like this recent story:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/tra...ark-debate-unfair-sports-rules-005337699.html

Should it matter in video games?

https://nextshark.com/japanese-girl-esports-team-discovers-one-members-man/

 

[lxskllr]

Gender shouldn't matter in any sports that are done for more than simple fun like the Olympics. It should be for the best athlete. That means women would be virtually excluded from some events, but the reverse is also true. That's what the games are really about, and it eliminates the question of "Who's really a woman?".

 

[DigDog]

I dont know.

In other sports we separate men and woman because men are inherently larger and stronger and it would be unfair to pit the two against each other, but then this division has bled through into non-physical sports, such as chess. The reasoning is that men are more aggressive thus will dedicate more effort to
1. Crushing their enemies
2. Seeing them driven before them
3. Hearing the lamentations of their women

Which basically translates to "men take this stuff way too seriously".

This comes from a period of time when people did sport because thats what you do, but since sport becoming a job, i dont see why men and women cant be judged on individual merits. If you got a woman thats better than a man, she can play Quake in any team, not just "womens division".

 

[tynopik]

no, 'identity' shouldn't matter in any sport

as far as actual gender, what does the evidence say?

if women can be shown to consistently compete at the highest levels then they don't need their own division

if they can't, then they do

The reasoning is that men are more aggressive thus will dedicate more effort to
1. Crushing their enemies
2. Seeing them driven before them
3. Hearing the lamentations of their women

Which basically translates to "men take this stuff way too seriously".

it might depend on the game. Chess obviously doesn't care about physical ability, but in something like StarCraft, anyone past 21 or so is old and washed up

 

[shortylickens]

They need to separate Koreans from Americans for the same reason hockey separates men from women.

 

[Kaido]

no, 'identity' shouldn't matter in any sport

Depending on the sport, it definitely matters due to biological differences & historically-recorded physical limitations. Take a sport like running & the mile-run record:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progression

Current men's record: 3:43:13 (set in 1999)
Current women's record: 4:12:56 (set in 1996)

Not only has a biologically-born woman never broken a 4-minute mile, but the current record of 4:12:56 hasn't been broken in over 20 years. And even that number is questionable because that record was set in Russia, under the suspicion of the runner using performance-enhancing drugs, because the next two closest times are 4:15:61 in Romania in 1989 & 4:16:71 in 1985.

 

[purbeast0]

No it shouldn't matter. I mean lets be real, "e-sports" aren't sports at all. They are just video games. There aren't any physical limitations like there are in sports.

It's like saying women and men chess players should be separated.

One of the top Street Fighter players is a trans, or whatever the term is where they change from male to female.

 

[purbeast0]

Depending on the sport, it definitely matters due to biological differences & historically-recorded physical limitations. Take a sport like running & the mile-run record:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progression

Current men's record: 3:43:13 (set in 1999)
Current women's record: 4:12:56 (set in 1996)

Not only has a biologically-born woman never broken a 4-minute mile, but the current record of 4:12:56 hasn't been broken in over 20 years. And even that number is questionable because that record was set in Russia, under the suspicion of the runner using performance-enhancing drugs, because the next two closest times are 4:15:61 in Romania in 1989 & 4:16:71 in 1985.

You should have read more than his first sentence lol.

 

[shortylickens]

Depending on the sport, it definitely matters due to biological differences & historically-recorded physical limitations. Take a sport like running & the mile-run record:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progression

Current men's record: 3:43:13 (set in 1999)
Current women's record: 4:12:56 (set in 1996)

Not only has a biologically-born woman never broken a 4-minute mile, but the current record of 4:12:56 hasn't been broken in over 20 years. And even that number is questionable because that record was set in Russia, under the suspicion of the runner using performance-enhancing drugs, because the next two closest times are 4:15:61 in Romania in 1989 & 4:16:71 in 1985.

She aint no slouch.

 

[Kaido]

You should have read more than his first sentence lol.

I did, I was just pointing that bit in particular, partly because it leads to a more interesting discussion. For example, my buddy's sister competes in track on the college & national level. One of their competing teams has a trans runner (male to female). The first question is gender identity inclusion on a team & sports level, vs. biological advantage of having benefits in the running category of say having more testosterone available. But that leads into a broader discussion, because what if you're Usain Bolt & just have a naturally larger frame (he's 6' 5") & can physically take longer strides? I've also read that Lance Armstrong has a physically larger heart, which leads to a competitive advantage.

 

[Kaido]

She aint no slouch.

I'm not one to talk, I've never run a mile in under 9 minutes in my life

 

[shortylickens]

I'm not one to talk, I've never run a mile in under 9 minutes in my life

My first year in the Navy I did a mile and a half in eight minutes.

 

[Kaido]

I mean lets be real, "e-sports" aren't sports at all.

You know, I used to think that (and I still do, to a large extent), but:

1. They do put a lot of time & effort into playing games. I mean sure, every kid out there spends hours playing video games, but these guys really take it to the next level, like how concert pianists train. That requires at least some degree of dedication outside of the normal braindead mode I go into on weekends playing games on Steam for hours on end, lol.

2. I cannot compete against a 14-year-old at online gaming anymore. My reflexes simply aren't fast enough. Playing Counter-strike back in high school online was a vastly different experience than playing the same game now because I've slowed down physically & mentally over time. Not that I was some kind of elite-level gamer or anything, but mental & physical reactions definitely play a large role in e-sports.

2a. I've read some studies where they've found that elite gamers can physically track more points on the screen than regular people can, among other advantages. So there is apparently a level of separation in reflexes, mental acuity, etc., which technically qualifies as a sport. I mean, some countries recognize chess a sport (where you're using your mind instead of your body) & some don't, so the definition itself is still up for discussion. And it's apparently under consideration for the Olympics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESports#Olympic_Games_recognition

3. You can make money at it, you can make a living at it, you can get sponsored, you can even make advertising money off of it. PewDiePie has 63 million Youtube followers & a net worth of $20 million just from playing video games online. League of Legends in Korea apparently offers salaried positions for professional players. It's a mutli-billion-dollar industry. Wikipedia says that gambling on Counter-Strike skins alone was worth an estimated $2.3 billion in 2015.

And I mean, if you compare it to regular sports, it's (1) people who have physical advantages, who are (2) playing somewhat silly games IRL. Football is tossing a pigskin around. Golf is hitting plastic & rubber balls into holes on top of mowed grass. Then you have gaming, which is pushing pixels around with keyboards, mice, and controllers.

But yeah, if we're being real, I'm with you - it's playing video games, c'mon

I'm totally not jealous or bitter that there are kids out there making a ton of money doing what I do for fun & for free

 

[Kaido]

My first year in the Navy I did a mile and a half in eight minutes.

Yoooooo #TeamAsthma

I did go through a period where I tried to train to do better. You know, after seeing Sidekicks with Chuck Norris. Turns out "trying really hard" & really believing in yourself aren't effective solutions to medical problems, despite how much your grade-school-self believes the Hollywood hype

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

All that matters when it comes to e-Sports (IMO) is drug use - using shit like adderall to have an upper-hand and focus.

Outside of that I don't care if you're a gender confused moron, cisgender scumbag, or an alien cyborg.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

You know, I used to think that (and I still do, to a large extent), but:

1. They do put a lot of time & effort into playing games. I mean sure, every kid out there spends hours playing video games, but these guys really take it to the next level, like how concert pianists train. That requires at least some degree of dedication outside of the normal braindead mode I go into on weekends playing games on Steam for hours on end, lol.

2. I cannot compete against a 14-year-old at online gaming anymore. My reflexes simply aren't fast enough. Playing Counter-strike back in high school online was a vastly different experience than playing the same game now because I've slowed down physically & mentally over time. Not that I was some kind of elite-level gamer or anything, but mental & physical reactions definitely play a large role in e-sports.

2a. I've read some studies where they've found that elite gamers can physically track more points on the screen than regular people can, among other advantages. So there is apparently a level of separation in reflexes, mental acuity, etc., which technically qualifies as a sport. I mean, some countries recognize chess a sport (where you're using your mind instead of your body) & some don't, so the definition itself is still up for discussion. And it's apparently under consideration for the Olympics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESports#Olympic_Games_recognition

3. You can make money at it, you can make a living at it, you can get sponsored, you can even make advertising money off of it. PewDiePie has 63 million Youtube followers & a net worth of $20 million just from playing video games online. League of Legends in Korea apparently offers salaried positions for professional players. It's a mutli-billion-dollar industry. Wikipedia says that gambling on Counter-Strike skins alone was worth an estimated $2.3 billion in 2015

I agree with you overall, if I had one criticism to this "sport" though... I will NEVER fucking understand why people like watching it.

I've been to Blizzcon a few times, one time we sat in an arena to watch the finals for Starcraft 2. It was like watching crack addicts - there was NOTHING entertaining about watching how they play. I mean, it's impressive no doubt - but entertaining? Nah..

 

[purbeast0]

I agree with you overall, if I had one criticism to this "sport" though... I will NEVER fucking understand why people like watching it.

I've been to Blizzcon a few times, one time we sat in an arena to watch the finals for Starcraft 2. It was like watching crack addicts - there was NOTHING entertaining about watching how they play. I mean, it's impressive no doubt - but entertaining? Nah..

Shocker that you can't understand why people would like something you don't like. I never would have guessed that.

 

[Red Storm]

I agree with you overall, if I had one criticism to this "sport" though... I will NEVER fucking understand why people like watching it.

I've been to Blizzcon a few times, one time we sat in an arena to watch the finals for Starcraft 2. It was like watching crack addicts - there was NOTHING entertaining about watching how they play. I mean, it's impressive no doubt - but entertaining? Nah..

Funny, I can totally understand watching e-sports but I cannot understand wanting to go to something like Blizzcon.

 

[BD231]

E-Sports aint e-sports at all its just snitchin and control mechanisims like in IRL, T&A just happen to be an attractive delivery system for hive mind bullsh*t (The Borg) and are thusly granted greater capacity to capitalize on it all.

These games are designed by the borg who openly support the mob mentality of it all and they can make stars or put in in a corner much like our lil waynes or shaniah twains. If u a good lil snitch you'll go far.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Funny, I can totally understand watching e-sports but I cannot understand wanting to go to something like Blizzcon.

Really? There is something there for everyone. Usually a decent band for a concert, playing all the games and new ones that aren't released. Costume contest (probably some of the most fun), meet and talk with developers/characters, win shit, buy shit, free shit. On top of that... watching tournaments. So yeah, if you like games there is something there for every type of person I would think.

 

[Aikouka]

Funny, I can totally understand watching e-sports but I cannot understand wanting to go to something like Blizzcon.

I'm a bit mixed on BlizzCon. To start with the huge negative, BlizzCon is just too expensive for what you get. The convention only lasts for two days (Friday and Saturday), and the tickets are quite pricey at $200 for BlizzCon 2017/2018. This doesn't even add in travel, which usually adds a large cost for me. Overall, BlizzCon usually costs me about $1000 with ticket + airfare + hotel. If I compare this with something like DragonCon, I get a four day convention for $125, and overall, the costs would be somewhat similar. (You've got more days so the hotel would obviously be more overall.)

Although, I've found one big advantage to BlizzCon. If you're a fan of Blizzard games, there's almost always something for you. Conventions are usually built around a fandom, and the problem is that just because I watch anime and play video games doesn't mean that I watch all anime and play all video games. What this means is that it isn't hard for me to go to an anime convention, and get bored because I'm just not interested in any of the panels.

 

[ElFenix]

I dont know.

In other sports we separate men and woman because men are inherently larger and stronger and it would be unfair to pit the two against each other, but then this division has bled through into non-physical sports, such as chess. The reasoning is that men are more aggressive thus will dedicate more effort to
1. Crushing their enemies
2. Seeing them driven before them
3. Hearing the lamentations of their women

Which basically translates to "men take this stuff way too seriously".

This comes from a period of time when people did sport because thats what you do, but since sport becoming a job, i dont see why men and women cant be judged on individual merits. If you got a woman thats better than a man, she can play Quake in any team, not just "womens division".

like the conan the barbarian reference

 

[Darwin333]

E-Sports aint e-sports at all its just snitchin and control mechanisims like in IRL, T&A just happen to be an attractive delivery system for hive mind bullsh*t (The Borg) and are thusly granted greater capacity to capitalize on it all.

These games are designed by the borg who openly support the mob mentality of it all and they can make stars or put in in a corner much like our lil waynes or shaniah twains. If u a good lil snitch you'll go far.

I rarely say this to anyone because I believe in to each their own but dude, put the crack pipe down.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

1. Crushing their enemies
2. Seeing them driven before them
3. Hearing the lamentations of their women

See, right there you can tell that Conan was a movie from a simpler time. Now it would be "Hearing the lamentations of their women and those who self-identify as female"

 

[pete6032]

What about sports like target shooting? Do men have an advantage over women in that? Don't they still separate men from women in shooting?