Should Democrats take Manchin's small ball deal?

Page 6 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
30,031
7,203
136
Minus the EV credits. They aren't needed anymore.
The right kind of EV credits can still be useful, such as those benefitting used vehicle purchases or vehicles under a certain cost.

This helps "low" (and truly low) income earners electrify sooner than later.

But you're right in that high-end luxury EVs don't need incentives anymore
 

kt

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2000
5,884
1,135
126
The right kind of EV credits can still be useful, such as those benefitting used vehicle purchases or vehicles under a certain cost.

This helps "low" (and truly low) income earners electrify sooner than later.

But you're right in that high-end luxury EVs don't need incentives anymore
To speed up EV adoption, they should offer a boosted value on trade-in of ICE vehicle in working condition. This guarantees a polluter being taken off the road.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
15,810
3,028
55
To speed up EV adoption, they should offer a boosted value on trade-in of ICE vehicle in working condition. This guarantees a polluter being taken off the road.
Not a bad idea. It's even been done before, though not requiring an EV replacement.


AKA "Cash for Clunkers".

But I don't think it's time for that yet. EVs are not having trouble finding buyers. If we get to a point where all the Democrats have EVs and all the Republicans refuse to give up ICE, then it might be worth trying.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Captante

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
31,700
5,687
126
If you want to boost EV sales, figure out chargers. Subsidize the installation of those.
And figure out how to do them without an attached garage. Where the charging may need to be done outdoors in the rain, snow, and in particular, below freezing.
Even if people think EV could be useful, and price effective, they are not supportable.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
20,318
9,959
136
If you want to boost EV sales, figure out chargers. Subsidize the installation of those.
And figure out how to do them without an attached garage. Where the charging may need to be done outdoors in the rain, snow, and in particular, below freezing.
Even if people think EV could be useful, and price effective, they are not supportable.
Autonomous driving. Not full, just from most home coordinates to a free charger. Autonomous charging. Figure that one out and its game over.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
4,546
568
126
The right kind of EV credits can still be useful, such as those benefitting used vehicle purchases or vehicles under a certain cost.

This helps "low" (and truly low) income earners electrify sooner than later.

But you're right in that high-end luxury EVs don't need incentives anymore
The latest bill tries to address some of these issues with EV Tax Credits. I am interested to see what actually gets passed.
  • Federal tax credit for EVs will remain at $7,500
    • Tax credit cap for automakers after they hit 200,000 EVs sold is eliminated, making GM, Tesla and Toyota once again eligible
    • The language in the bill indicates that the tax credit would be implemented at the point of sale instead of on taxes at the end of the fiscal year Having the EV Tax Credit at Point of Sale should allow more people to take advantage of the tax credit.
    • In order to get the full credit, the EV must be assembled in North America, the majority of battery components need to come from North America, and contain a certain percentage of minerals from countries with free trade agreements with the US, This also should help spur more production of battery components outside of China and hopefully bring more production into North America.
  • Includes a new federal tax credit of $4,000 for used EVs
  • Includes zero-emission vans, SUVs, and trucks with MSRPs up to $80,000 It is good they now have a cap on the price of the vehicle so we don't have 100k+ luxury BEV's qualifying for the Tax Credit.
  • Electric sedans priced up to $55,000 MSRP also qualify
  • The full electric vehicle tax credit will be available to individuals reporting adjusted gross incomes of $150,000 or less, or $300,000 for joint filers Also a cap on income to qualify isn't bad either.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
4,546
568
126
If you want to boost EV sales, figure out chargers. Subsidize the installation of those.
And figure out how to do them without an attached garage. Where the charging may need to be done outdoors in the rain, snow, and in particular, below freezing.
Even if people think EV could be useful, and price effective, they are not supportable.
The infrastructure bill from earlier this year provides $5B for EV Charging. This will help expand the EV Charging network, especially direct DC charging.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jaskalas

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
15,822
11,316
146
If you want to boost EV sales, figure out chargers. Subsidize the installation of those.
And figure out how to do them without an attached garage. Where the charging may need to be done outdoors in the rain, snow, and in particular, below freezing.
Even if people think EV could be useful, and price effective, they are not supportable.
At least with a Tesla connector (and I’ll assume the same for the J1772/CCS connector) there’s no issue with charging in inclement weather for the connection to the car.

If the charger is a Supercharger or a permanent wall mount level 2 charger there’s no issue on that side either as they are weatherproof.



The only real issue is if using a mobile connector. The latest version is weatherproof but the outlet it plugs into needs to be weather proofed and ideally the box part of the mobile connector shouldn’t be sitting


on the ground submerged in a puddle.

A lot of RV places already have 240V service through weatherproofed NEMA 14-50 (or other) receptacles.

EV owners who don’t have garages but do have driveways or can park alongside their property run a line to where they park and put one of these on a post.

As for supportability, if it’s the ability to support charging a large number of cars that’s not going to be a problem for quite a while.

Look at this plot from our wonderful Texas grid from last night.

94DFFA96-56E4-429C-B423-7103103FD388.jpeg
From midnight to 8:00AM they roughly committed an average amount of power equal to 60.5 GW. Demand fell off to a rough average of 53GW.

That left approximately 60GWh ((60.5-53GW)*8H) of energy available for charging EVs overnight without the grid having to do anything different.


Most EVs average about 3-4 miles per kWh so that 60GWh could conservatively supply ~ 180million miles of range. Texans drive a lot so let’s assume the average Texan drives 50 miles/day and that’s enough power to recharge 3.6 million EVs.

There are about 81,000 EVs registered in TX this year so we could increase the number of EVs 44 times before we need to start adding additional power to the grid.

Truthfully the real issue with charging is incentivizing owners of multi unit homes (apartments, condos, etc) to provide charging locations in their parking lots and the manpower to install the large number of 240v receptacles / level 2 chargers.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
15,078
11,896
136
If you want to boost EV sales, figure out chargers. Subsidize the installation of those.
And figure out how to do them without an attached garage. Where the charging may need to be done outdoors in the rain, snow, and in particular, below freezing.
Even if people think EV could be useful, and price effective, they are not supportable.
Since my Prius is finally on its last legs (135K miles), I am now considering an EV, and have thought about this. For most of us, it's mainly a non-issue. A typical EV has a battery offering a ~220 mile range. A typical American drives about 14K miles per year or about 38 miles per day.

A level 1 charging station, which is just any wall socket in your house or garage, takes about 14 hours to fully charge an EV battery, but if you only put less than 100 miles on your car that day, you can recharge it over night during non-peak hours. If you happened to drive farther on a particular day, you can use a level 2 charger not at your home to supplement, but really you won't even need to do that often. Level 2 chargers take about 3-4 hours to recharge from zero to full. In short, most people do not need to pay to install a level 2 charger at their home.

For long trips, EV's are not viable until there are more level 3 chargers (30-45 minute full charge time). These, however, are extremely expensive to install. However, it's not going to matter if you never or only rarely take long car trips. If you do, then you either don't have an EV, or you have 1 EV and 1 ICE or hybrid car in your family.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brovane

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
15,078
11,896
136
*blink* What? It's a Toyota. It'll be on its last legs somewhere between 200K-300K if you treat it like shit.
Right, it's a Toyota, which is why I haven't had it repaired over the entire 135K miles. Just maintenance. But right now it isn't running well and the engine light is on. Going to take it in when I return from vacation. Depending on repair cost, I'm most likely just going to get a new car, either an EV or another Prius. My wife has a 2 year old Mercedes convertible and I'm still driving a 14 year old clunker with faded paint. Screw that!
 
  • Haha
Reactions: dank69

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
4,546
568
126
Since my Prius is finally on its last legs (135K miles), I am now considering an EV, and have thought about this. For most of us, it's mainly a non-issue. A typical EV has a battery offering a ~220 mile range. A typical American drives about 14K miles per year or about 38 miles per day.

A level 1 charging station, which is just any wall socket in your house or garage, takes about 14 hours to fully charge an EV battery, but if you only put less than 100 miles on your car that day, you can recharge it over night during non-peak hours. If you happened to drive farther on a particular day, you can use a level 2 charger not at your home to supplement, but really you won't even need to do that often. Level 2 chargers take about 3-4 hours to recharge from zero to full. In short, most people do not need to pay to install a level 2 charger at their home.

For long trips, EV's are not viable until there are more level 3 chargers (30-45 minute full charge time). These, however, are extremely expensive to install. However, it's not going to matter if you never or only rarely take long car trips. If you do, then you either don't have an EV, or you have 1 EV and 1 ICE or hybrid car in your family.
One way to look at EV charging is to do miles per hour for charging. A typical EV gets about 3-4 miles per kwh. A Tesla Model 3 will get closer to 4 miles per kwh, my Nissan Leaf gets 3.5 miles per kwh and if you have a Ford Lightning or Rivian it will be lower than 3 miles per kwh.

The typical "granny charger" that comes with a EV will charge at 8amps at 120v so right around 1 kw so 3-4 miles per per hour.
Some chargers and EV's allow you to adjust the amperage so if you have for example a 120v 20amp circuit you could charge at 16amp as long as nothing else is on that circuit and get 6-8 miles per hour. So somebody that has a 80-100 mile daily commute could fairly easily use a 120v 20amp circuit to overnight charge their EV.
If you have a 30amp 240v dryer outlet that is available for charging you could charge at 20-25 miles per hour. One company even has a product that allows a electric dryer to share it's outlet with a EV charging station.
If you have a 14-50 outlet (50amp 240v) your charging rate will be 30-40 miles per hour. As long as your onboard charger on the EV will support 10kw and most new EV's support this at a minimum.
Above this you get into chargers that need to be hard-wired into a circuit. For example the Ford Charging station requires a 100 amp hard wired circuit and the high end Ford Lightning has a 19.2kw onboard charger.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Captante

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
27,185
8,185
136
A level 1 charging station, which is just any wall socket in your house or garage
This is the crux of the charging issue since many folks don't have a handy garage or even a convenient socket to plug into. Some will be able to charge at work but in the near-future they'll continue to be the tiny minority.

Right now even here in Connecticut where there actually ARE quite a few chargers available (at least near major highways) if they're your only option to juice-up it's going to really suck to be you at some point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brovane

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
4,546
568
126
This is the crux of the charging issue since many folks don't have a handy garage or even a convenient socket to plug into. Some will be able to charge at work but in the near-future they'll continue to be the tiny minority.

Right now even here in Connecticut where there actually ARE quite a few chargers available (at least near major highways) if they're your only option to juice-up it's going to really suck to be you at some point.
Using DC fast chargers for regular charging if you don't have access to charging nearby your residence has a couple of issues.
#1- Cost, charging at home for me is around $.20 kwh, for me charging at a EVGO direct DC fast charger recently was $.50 kwh. Looking up pricing for Electrify America in CA, they charge $.31 kWh if you pay $4 month for a monthly pass. DC charging cost can vary. In June when I drove to Bakersfield (In-laws visit not for fun) even on the ChargePoint Network I had per kWh cost from $.45 to $.50 kWh. Some stations will also charge more to charge during peak hours of the day when electrical demand is the highest. For me occasionally fast charging when we are away from home and need it isn't really a issue since the majority is done at home. However for someone that doesn't have home charging available, this could add up.
#2- Using direct DC Charging is supposed to impose more stress on the battery. How much this impacts battery life is kind of unknown. There is Tesla's that are used as Taxi's with hundreds of thousands of miles using a lot of DC charging and the battery has help up well.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
27,185
8,185
136
The limo company my buddy dispatch's for now has 6 Tesla's on the road as well (all model Y's) and so far they've been holding up just "okay" although to be fair battery/charging hasn't been one of the issues.

Mostly they've had structural-integrity/suspension/wheel related problems from being driven on NYC's cornfield-like roads.


EDIT: Also keep in mind nearly half of the ORIGINAL model Prius's have yet to replace their batteries and they've been documented lasting nearly 300k. (of course it IS a Toyota!)

While not a "perfect" comparison by any means since it's a hybrid this does show that rechargeable car batteries can last a long time if treated right.
 
Last edited:

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,681
5,150
126
Right, it's a Toyota, which is why I haven't had it repaired over the entire 135K miles. Just maintenance. But right now it isn't running well and the engine light is on. Going to take it in when I return from vacation. Depending on repair cost, I'm most likely just going to get a new car, either an EV or another Prius. My wife has a 2 year old Mercedes convertible and I'm still driving a 14 year old clunker with faded paint. Screw that!
Damn Straight, Not worth shit at 14 years. Has to be at least 25 years old like mine.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
27,185
8,185
136
Damn Straight, Not worth shit at 14 years. Has to be at least 25 years old like mine.
Even with it's current mechanical problems I promise you the resale value of that Prius is absurdly high for what it is at the moment. ($8-$10k wouldn't shock me)

The local Honda dealer just offered me $6200 trade for my 2012 manual Fit with 127k and some minor body-damage. (That's $700 more then just 1.5 months ago!)

:oops:
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,681
5,150
126
Even with it's current mechanical problems I promise you the resale value of that Prius is absurdly high for what it is at the moment. ($8-$10k wouldn't shock me)

The local Honda dealer just offered me $6200 trade for my 2012 manual Fit with 127k and some minor body-damage. (That's $700 more then just 1.5 months ago!)

:oops:
I gave away by beautiful 2001 Honda Civic EX and bought a 2020 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring because I had to make a 220 mile round trip drive without the worry of it the Civic breaking down. I got caught twice far from home like that with major mechanical repairs on one and decided I didn't need that kind of hassle. Now it just mostly sits since I sadly do not need to make that drive anymore. I like it a lot but the seats are too hard. I just went into the Dealership, saw the car on the floor and drove away with it. Had I not needed it suddenly I might have gotten a similarly Toyota Hybrid. I would bet the seats are softer but I never even test drove the Honda. Otherwise, no regrets.

Owing to the battery questions like those you discussed in another thread and the rapid progress being made on electrics, I decided to lease.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Captante

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
27,185
8,185
136
Toyota's ARE a little bit more reliable then Honda's BUT to get that extra reliability you give up every last scrap of "fun to drive" just like my last Corolla.

Personally I'd buy another Honda in a flash considering what a great car the Fit is to live with and the Accord Hybrid is near the top of my list.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
31,546
20,184
136
Sinema now playing tough for the loopholes of hedge fund ultra wealthy. What a self centered biatch
Holding out for the Uber rich??

Fuck her. Put it up for a vote and dare her to vote for the rich and against everyone else

That cvnt hanging on to the carried interest loophole??? Dem leadership needs to out her and fast. Tell everyone she is holding out for carried interest
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
20,318
9,959
136
Koch is at it again



Sinema is a vile c*nt. *shrugs*.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,580
5,737
126
Sinema is talking to Arizona chamber of commerce, whose CEO was a Trump elector in 2020.
She's a total corporate and hedge fund shill. I bet they promised her a very cushy job after she loses in 2024 and she sold out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hal2kilo

ASK THE COMMUNITY