Should Biden agree to debate Trump?

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ewdotson

Senior member
Oct 30, 2011
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562
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I'm in the camp who would expect Biden to be all for debating Trump, but he *has* to be able to avoid getting flustered - as he did at times in the Democratic debate. As ludicrous as the idea of Trump supporters making a "dementia" argument against Biden is - that's likely going to be one of their better vectors for attack. And it's *very* clear that large chunks of the country are unable to tell the difference between a stutterer hitting blocks and circumlocuting and someone who's mental faculties are failing them.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
15,939
1,855
126
If there are debates they'll be under very controlled conditions. Joe gets lost to easily to respond to random questions thrown at him. The good news is that a lot of people will accept the idea of Joe being above debating Trump, so he'll be able to dodge the issue without exposing any weakness.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,518
2,674
126
I'm in the camp who would expect Biden to be all for debating Trump, but he *has* to be able to avoid getting flustered - as he did at times in the Democratic debate. As ludicrous as the idea of Trump supporters making a "dementia" argument against Biden is - that's likely going to be one of their better vectors for attack. And it's *very* clear that large chunks of the country are unable to tell the difference between a stutterer hitting blocks and circumlocuting and someone who's mental faculties are failing them.
The Stutterer defense is disingenuous.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
15,817
4,292
136
As much as I would love to watch and listen to Joe slap that silly orange twat around on stage, I have to admit the smart move is to skip it. There is simply no reason to risk the lead by giving Trump openings to make soundbyte material when you are this ahead of such an awful opponent. One with a penchant for periodically stabbing himself in the balls with a letter opener no less.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
15,817
4,292
136
Looks like your supreme commander in chief’s bonespurs is acting up again.
Ill never understand how anyone with a service record could vote for the draft dodger.
The same way they did for Dubya, who did worse by abandoning his post.

It's his multitude of lies, betrayals and failures towards the military since illegitimately taking office that blows my mind. The Russian bounties on US personnel alone, my god. And fuckwit admitted he didn't even bring it up with Putin. Wow.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
13,078
3,686
136
The same way they did for Dubya, who did worse by abandoning his post.

It's his multitude of lies, betrayals and failures towards the military since illegitimately taking office that blows my mind. The Russian bounties on US personnel alone, my god. And fuckwit admitted he didn't even bring it up with Putin. Wow.
I dare anyone dig something up where Trump talks about Putin in a negative tone. Something, *anything*, common geek, you are up!
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
26,592
1,218
126
I'm in the camp who would expect Biden to be all for debating Trump, but he *has* to be able to avoid getting flustered - as he did at times in the Democratic debate. As ludicrous as the idea of Trump supporters making a "dementia" argument against Biden is - that's likely going to be one of their better vectors for attack. And it's *very* clear that large chunks of the country are unable to tell the difference between a stutterer hitting blocks and circumlocuting and someone who's mental faculties are failing them.
i agree. we all know trump isn't going to debate in good faith. this is not going to be "here's my policy and the weaknesses of yours" back and forth. this is going to be dealing with a guy who will say something, and then when you call him on it, will immediately reply with "that's not what i said".

that is not something that's easy to deal with, and joe and his team need to be prepared for an hours-long exercise in Brandolini's Law
 
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Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
7,547
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Trump may have a tougher time debating than his supporters think he does.

Remember, he was an unknown quantity as a politician in the 2016 debates. He got a pass from some because he had no political track record to point to. He could make grandiose promises and draw on his personality (an ugly, vicious personality, but some people like that) without having to prove he could back up his claims. That's no longer true in 2020 -- Biden can easily point out that Trump was an abject failure even before the pandemic. Trump will lie, of course, but Biden can keep hammering Trump on those lies and failures.

Also, I can't help but think that Trump's bullying tactics just won't work on Biden, especially not in a year like this. Remember how Trump was stalking Clinton around the stage (in part due to his misogyny, but that's another thread)? Yeah, not only will Biden be unlikely to tolerate that, it's doubtful that can happen due to social distancing requirements. If Trump barks, Biden will likely bark back.

Biden will have to be careful, to be clear, with well-rehearsed talking points and prepared responses for as many situations as possible. But he really just has to show up proving that he won't back down and that he has a better plan than Trump... and a better plan isn't hard.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
23,485
8,155
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I'm not sure about this one

Pro: Biden needs to show he can stand up to a bully and liar.
Con: Trump never tells the truth. It may be pointless to debate someone who will lie about everything.

If I had to choose I would say one debate with different rules. Give them 3 hours to allow for real time fact checking. If either person makes a misleading through a bald face lie. Stop the clock, resolve the discrepancy and move along. If not many topics are covered due to Trump lying constantly, so be it.

Biden or Trump can lie as per their 1A rights but they will be called out in real time.

It would be a hoot if Biden called Trump individual #1.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
5,833
1,110
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I really don't know. On one hand refusing to debate is just... unpresidential. On the other hand there is little point in debating Trump because he doesn't debate, he just bullshits.

I do think that Joe will be a much tougher opponent than Hillary by the simple virtue that he's a man and won't be seen as "shrill" when he goes after Trump.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
25,698
5,266
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If there are debates they'll be under very controlled conditions. Joe gets lost to easily to respond to random questions thrown at him. The good news is that a lot of people will accept the idea of Joe being above debating Trump, so he'll be able to dodge the issue without exposing any weakness.
I'm sure you say all this after watching hours of Biden townhalls and interviews, and not just because you've been fed a few soundbites from each to push a narrative you've already committed to.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
25,698
5,266
136
I just don't see any upside to debating Trump. Hillary pretty much destroyed Trump during their debates but nobody cares about that shit. People that are in the middle at this point are only in the middle because they fucking HATE liberals and the chances of overcoming that are slim. If they didn't hate liberals they'd already have voted for them in 2018 and will already be chomping at the bit to vote for them now.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,518
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It absolutely isn't. As a lifelong stutterer, I can't tell you how familiar his speech patterns are and how obvious it is when he hits a block and circumlocutes. The "dementia" accusations are ableist trash.
Not Trash. Maintaining this position undermines your credibility. His moments are clearly not Stuttering.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
10,915
5,081
136
No way. He needs to continue to put the pressure on. You lose when you protect leads. Nothing says a loss more than knowing your ahead and changing from what got you there to something else. Many a win was prevented by using the “prevent” defense in a game.

When you pressure your opponent, they make mistakes. It may not happen every time, but the advantage of being up is that each mistake by the opponent is magnified. Set back and now the need two good things to go their way to get them back to where they were.

I say debate him. Make him make a fool of himself aT each one. Say to him, “Are you kidding me when you said delay the election?” After his response say, “You know that you can’t do that. Is set in stone and it take a a Congress to make that happen. You think Mitch, the guy who said if your running for a Senate seat that if they need to distance from you, they should, is going to help you change the date of the election? You truly are the puppet.” Then follow up with, “If I am elected, I will push to make mail-in voting standard a cross the country. I will also rebuild their postal service and not dismantle it.” Watch tRump go crazy with that, and say that stuff he said today that everyone knows this, its logic. Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

He needs to continue to show the contrast. tRump gets so much “free” media attention that you have to constantly show the contrast. The debates are a great way to do that.
Biden is likely to go through with it, so we'll see. I have my doubts. Biden did not do well in the primary debates, overall. Trump has an important advantage. Since he can draw false allegations from anywhere, including something he read in social media, Biden may not anticipate or be prepared for many of the attacks.

I think there is more risk than upside here.
 
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ewdotson

Senior member
Oct 30, 2011
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562
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Not Trash. Maintaining this position undermines your credibility. His moments are clearly not Stuttering.
Nope, you're wrong. And engaging in ugly ableism because it lets you see what you want to see. I'm not saying anyone has to like Biden, but they should dislike him for valid reasons. This isn't it. And this is all I have to say about this.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
10,915
5,081
136
It absolutely isn't. As a lifelong stutterer, I can't tell you how familiar his speech patterns are and how obvious it is when he hits a block and circumlocutes. The "dementia" accusations are ableist trash.
Biden is not a stutterer. I fail to see how that is a viable conclusion here when his verbal gaffes have gotten worse over the years. The fact it's gotten worse means it's age related. I doubt it's dementia, either. It's probably just ordinary cognitive decline, which we've also seen from Trump, based on comparing his speech from decades ago with now.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
15,939
1,855
126
I'm sure you say all this after watching hours of Biden townhalls and interviews, and not just because you've been fed a few soundbites from each to push a narrative you've already committed to.
Nope. Just what I've seen.
A couple of my clients are MD's, we were discussing Joe and they both said his mental decline was obvious. They're still voting for him because he's better than the alternative.
This is simple end of life stuff. I'm not trying to disparage Joe, old people have mental degradation, it comes on at different times and is more obvious in some people. I don't see the point in trying to pretend it's not happening. It's also why I think his VP choice is critical. I'd also note that he's clearly a more likable person than Trump, and would at the very least bring some dignity back to the white house.
 

ewdotson

Senior member
Oct 30, 2011
768
562
136
Biden is not a stutterer. I fail to see how that is a viable conclusion here when his verbal gaffes have gotten worse over the years. The fact it's gotten worse means it's age related. I doubt it's dementia, either. It's probably just ordinary cognitive decline, which we've also seen from Trump, based on comparing his speech from decades ago with now.
What on earth? He has a well documented history of being a lifelong stutterer. That's an unequivocal truth.

So far as it goes, I *do* actually agree that his stutter has gotten worse over the last several years. But the crap that's singled out as being evidence of his cognitive decline is still classic stuttering coping behavior.

 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
10,915
5,081
136
Trump may have a tougher time debating than his supporters think he does.

Remember, he was an unknown quantity as a politician in the 2016 debates. He got a pass from some because he had no political track record to point to. He could make grandiose promises and draw on his personality (an ugly, vicious personality, but some people like that) without having to prove he could back up his claims. That's no longer true in 2020 -- Biden can easily point out that Trump was an abject failure even before the pandemic. Trump will lie, of course, but Biden can keep hammering Trump on those lies and failures.

Also, I can't help but think that Trump's bullying tactics just won't work on Biden, especially not in a year like this. Remember how Trump was stalking Clinton around the stage (in part due to his misogyny, but that's another thread)? Yeah, not only will Biden be unlikely to tolerate that, it's doubtful that can happen due to social distancing requirements. If Trump barks, Biden will likely bark back.

Biden will have to be careful, to be clear, with well-rehearsed talking points and prepared responses for as many situations as possible. But he really just has to show up proving that he won't back down and that he has a better plan than Trump... and a better plan isn't hard.
The best theory as to how Biden does well here is that Biden has one important advantage over Clinton: high personal likability. This likability will play to his advantage when Trump throws baseless attacks at him because it will make Trump look like a bully. Under this theory, Trump will sink himself when his nastiness bites him in the ass, even if Biden himself is mediocre.

This, however, will only protect Biden to a degree. If Trump throws some unexpected attack at Biden that he has not considered, and he gives a stupid answer (like a failed attempt at sarcasm) which inadvertently makes him sound guilty of what he is accused of, it's going to hurt him. That's what concerns me.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
15,939
1,855
126
Biden is not a stutterer. I fail to see how that is a viable conclusion here when his verbal gaffes have gotten worse over the years. The fact it's gotten worse means it's age related. I doubt it's dementia, either. It's probably just ordinary cognitive decline, which we've also seen from Trump, based on comparing his speech from decades ago with now.
This is right on the mark. There is no shame in getting old, or in having "senior moments". Every single one of us will face this eventually.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,518
2,674
126
What on earth? He has a well documented history of being a lifelong stutterer. And I *do* actually agree that his stutter has gotten worse over the last several years. But the crap that's singled out as being evidence of his cognitive decline is still classic stuttering coping.

It's not a stutter. Just accept it and move on.
 

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