Should AT include OC'd Cards in Reviews?

[Paratus]

Did everyone see the link on the front page?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3988/the-use-of-evgas-geforce-gtx-460-ftw-in-last-nights-review


I personally thinks it's fine to include OC'd cards or OC'd stock cards. I for one am always game for more information.

I'd even have been ok with running the HAWX 2 demo as long as NV was eviscerated for trying to have an early demo of an unfinished game used. (A sort of be-careful what you ask for kinda thing)

Full disclosure is a wonderful thing.

EDIT - I added a poll specifically for this case. See the other thread for a more generic take : http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2114742


Paratus and Hard Ball agreed to merge their threads, but we are keeping Hard Ball's poll (at the expense of Paratus's poll) per their request.

<--- This post was the original OP for Paratus's thread titled "Should AT include OC'd Cards in Reviews?"

Moderator Idontcare

 

[crislevin]

I don't think its wise, simply because this card cost $230.

OC has higher prices, including it in a official review gives users wrong impressions. A site like this should know better.

 

[Paratus]

I tend to disagree. If the price vs performance is spelled out then I don't see a problem assuming the reviewers have time to adequately cover the cards.

 

[ShadowOfMyself]

Its unfair to do this at launch... Wait until there are OC models of AMD cards and THEN compare OC vs OC, not like this

Of course, if the OC GTX costs the same as the HD 6xxx, its still a valid comparison, but even then it neglects the fact that you can also OC the AMD card

 

[Nintendesert]

As long as both cards get overclocked, I don't have a problem with it. The problem is with one card overclocked against a stock card. That skews real comparison between the two.

Though as Shadow stated, if the card is sold at that amount and is priced the same as a card being reviewed it's a valid comparison.

 

[aka1nas]

I don't mind OC'ed models included in a round-up article for a specific GPU. You're basically comparison shopping in those articles, and most cards with the same GPU have such little differentiation otherwise that including OC'ed models is reasonable.

It doesn't really add anything to a general review article, IMO. You're really trying to compare architectures/technology at that point, rather than individual manufacturer's cards. Throwing in an Oc'ed GTX 460 doesn't help me decide if the GTX 460 is going to give me better performance scaling at 1920x1200 than another GPU, which is the what that sort of article boils down to for me, at least.

 

[zerocool84]

As long as both cards get overclocked, I don't have a problem with it. The problem is with one card overclocked against a stock card. That skews real comparison between the two.

Though as Shadow stated, if the card is sold at that amount and is priced the same as a card being reviewed it's a valid comparison.

The only way I think it's valid, and Anand already explained it in his review, was that if Nvidia released or 465 card or something like that which was already overlocked from the factory. Not an overclocked version of the 460.

 

[Skurge]

My problem is they say they're charts would be full of cards that are OC'ed by 5mhz and stuff. So how far should a card be OC'ed to be in a review? 5&#37;? 10% I don't know. Its a slippery slope.

This will just mean that AMD and nV will think they can pressure AT into including OC'ed cards in reviews to steal thunder from each other launches. Like AMD could have pushed for AT to include the 950mhz 5870 SOC in the Fermi launch review. I wouldn't want that either.

And also, how available is the 460FTW? I don't think its available in the same quantities as all the 6870s put together, the same with any single OC'ed SKU.

I agree that they should have put the FTW in its own roundup of OC'ed cards after the review. Just like they did here.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3917/...ga-palit-and-calibre-overclocked-and-reviewed

and here
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3810/nvidias-geforce-gtx-460-part-2-the-vendor-cards

and here
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3732/overclocked-our-custom-radeon-hd-5870-roundup

There was nothing wrong with the way they did it before, why change now?

 

[krumme]

We want a market where the consumers make qulified purchases. For that they need information that is not to complex.

Adding OC cards into the play is going to be a mix on launch day review is highly problematic. There is availability issues, and there is plain and simply the problem of normal users / readers (not informed like the users on the forums), mixing the cards; a 460 is the same as a 460 with "oc" in front.

Adding complexity into the purchacing decicion is a well know tactics when you dont have the best product but the strongest brand. And NV is just doing that right now. Its not unusual tactics to distract and confuse the consumers, its more the norm.

What is problematic here is, that the professional guide for the buying decisions - Anandtech - changes methology - bad - to the worse.

The result of this is:

More pressure from AMD and NV on the review sites to use special editions cards, when there is released new tech.

It hinders adoption of the better technology.

It favors marketing, and the use of marketing ressources, instead of engineering ressources.

That gives slower cards, and worse gaming experience.

Therefore, a plain playing field is nessesary.

If NV can release 850Mhz 460 do it - call it 462, - dont hide it behind lots of smoke.

And for good sake, let the review sites not accept that at launch day. Its bad for all us us in the end, giving us slower cards on the long run.

Besides we need real word testing of the gfx cards, like the excellent new real world anand HDD bm suite. Look how it improved the decisions. Had it been there earlier perhaps we could have had cheaper ssd todays, instead of overblown focus on randon 4k read/writes.

 

[crislevin]

there is plain and simply the problem of normal users / readers (not informed like the users on the forums), mixing the cards; a 460 is the same as a 460 with "oc" in front.
.

completely agree. I don't know what got into anandtech's mind, but this sort of problem is bigger than they thought. Most end users are not that knowledgeable on these things, especially anandtechh didn't clearly states that "OC" is vastly different than stock version price wise.

When users got a 460 from newegg for $180 and expecting it to do as good as a card costing $230. whose fault would that be?

 

[Sickamore]

I believe OC to OC. I feel like the review didnt make sense. It didnt feel right.

 

[Skurge]

completely agree. I don't know what got into anandtech's mind, but this sort of problem is bigger than they thought. Most end users are not that knowledgeable on these things, especially anandtechh didn't clearly states that "OC" is vastly different than stock version price wise.

When users got a 460 from newegg for $180 and expecting it to do as good as a card costing $230. whose fault would that be?

Another thing is that when I read the review I had to go to EVGA's website to find out what the clocks on that card were. Now, if I was less informed I might go to newegg and pickup whatever GTX460 has OC in the name and I could end up with a 680mhz card instead of the 850mhz card they reviewed.

 

[GaiaHunter]

I would leave factory OC cards out since they don't have a MSRP.

Card prices change but it is easy to keep track of MSRP drops since those happen in pretty much every standard model. Factory OC models don't follow the same model.

Additionally how many of these cards are available - if everyone that is leaning between a 6870 and EVGA GTX460 FTW has a 50-50 chance of buying either will EVGA be able to provide as many of those cards as all the AMD AIB will be able to provide 6870?

I would keep OC cards out of these reviews, mentioning them as a buying option sure, and then add another article showing OC scalings and factory OC cards.

 

[crislevin]

Another thing is that when I read the review I had to go to EVGA's website to find out what the clocks on that card were. Now, if I was less informed I might go to newegg and pickup whatever GTX460 has OC in the name and I could end up with a 680mhz card instead of the 850mhz card they reviewed.

indeed, its really more trouble than its worth, and indeed do more harm than good.

AT should position its reviews properly, a general review with stock options and targeting general end users. a more expertized review round up OC cards of both AMD and NV.

AT can say whatever they want to defend itself. This sort of action invite suspicions.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Including factory OC cards makes sense sometimes because they do represent a choice available at retail, unlike OCs done on your own where you have no guarantee of performance. It's also useful to see what the power, heat, noise tradeoffs are.

This is also a special case since 460-OC is apparently nv's official competition to the 6870 for now. It's more-or-less the 460 Ultra even if nv isn't using that branding.

I thought the AnandTech review did a good job with its disclaimers:
"However with that we&#8217;ll attach the biggest disclaimer we can that while we&#8217;re including the card, we don&#8217;t believe NVIDIA is taking the right action here. ..."

 

[Sickamore]

I dont care what anyone feel about what i say. I feel like that AT just spoiled the party for me. Yeah a OC will do better than a normal new card. So who ever is buying those cards will go for the ftw in thay review. Why pay for less when you can go for more performance. I looked at the review and i felt did nvidia pay AT. I use to love coming here everyday thinking this places was legit. I feel like at the end of the review felt like a bad breakfast.

 

[crislevin]

I thought the AnandTech review did a good job with its disclaimers:
"However with that we’ll attach the biggest disclaimer we can that while we’re including the card, we don’t believe NVIDIA is taking the right action here. ..."

good job would be use bold font pointing out this card is $50 more expensive than a stock 460 1G, and is clocked at much higher frequency.

There are places for OC reviews, and there are places for general reviews.

nVidia has been taking the wrong actions, that doesn't mean AT should follow.

all above mentioned concerns are real, NV pushing this card doesn't make any of those less real.

 

[Arkaign]

I tend to disagree. If the price vs performance is spelled out then I don't see a problem assuming the reviewers have time to adequately cover the cards.

I'm with you. Anand knows what he's doing, and to even think of accusing him of even remotely being biased or bending to NV's will is idiotic at best.

A complete review would have included :

Stock 460
Factory OC 460
Max overclocked stock 460
Max overclocked Factory OC 460
Stock 6850
Stock 6870
Max overclocked Stock 6850
Max overclocked Stock 6870
Any available factory OC 68xx product

Simply because they're all the best in the range at this point.

 

[Sickamore]

Including factory OC cards makes sense sometimes because they do represent a choice available at retail, unlike OCs done on your own where you have no guarantee of performance. It's also useful to see what the power, heat, noise tradeoffs are.

This is also a special case since 460-OC is apparently nv's official competition to the 6870 for now. It's more-or-less the 460 Ultra even if nv isn't using that branding.

I thought the AnandTech review did a good job with its disclaimers:
"However with that we’ll attach the biggest disclaimer we can that while we’re including the card, we don’t believe NVIDIA is taking the right action here. ..."

Stock for stock. New release against competitor. Did amd benchmark their card against a oc evga in the benchmark info. No.

 

[crislevin]

If AT knew what it was doing, I fail to see it.

Did anyone read any other reviews from any other sites including 460 OC? What make AT think it should do this? I wonder..

 

[AnandThenMan]

I'm with you. Anand knows what he's doing, and to even think of accusing him of even remotely being biased or bending to NV's will is idiotic at best.

I think you're over reacting. But in the review, it was stated that the card was included in part because of Nvidia's insistence.

 

[Arkaign]

If AT knew what it was doing, I fail to see it.

Did anyone read any other reviews from any other sites including 460 OC? What make AT think it should do this? I wonder..

Do you have something against additional choices being benched/tested? I'd feel the exact same way if this was the total reverse, if there was say no factory oc version of 460, but there was a 6870 OC edition that fared very well against GTX480.

(1)- Is product available? (y/n)
(2)- Is product price and performance competitive (y/n)
(3)- If y/y, then include it if possible.

I'm not sure if I'm gonna upgrade from my 5770 yet, but the 6850 looks pretty nice.

 

[Sickamore]

I think you're over reacting. But in the review, it was stated that the card was included in part because of Nvidia's insistence.

Tell me what does nvidia have calling AT and demanding this card has to be used in the benchmark.

 

[formulav8]

The biggest problem with the whole ordeal is apparently anandtech went against their NORMAL ethics to appease nvidia. That is what was wrong with the whole oc vs non-oc card ordeal. I would love to see what nvidia said/offered/threatened to them (If there was something offered obviously) that anand would allow his review ethics to lower their standards. I was VERY dissapointed to see what Ryan did.

Looks like anand finally took note of the critisim and made a new post on the main page. Hopefully he will make the reviewer take the oc results and even the mention of it from the original article.


Jason

 

[DaveSimmons]

Stock for stock. New release against competitor. Did amd benchmark their card against a oc evga in the benchmark info. No.

Factory OC with nvidia's blessing is essentially stock. Also you said:

I feel like that AT just spoiled the party for me. Yeah a OC will do better than a normal new card. So who ever is buying those cards will go for the ftw in thay review. Why pay for less when you can go for more performance.

If that were true, everyone would buy a GTX 480.

People will consider some or all of price, performance, power, heat, noise when choosing a card, not just raw performance.