Shin Bet Leader: "We don't realize . . .

[Perknose]

. . . that we face a frustrating situation in which we win every battle, but we lose the war."

The documentary film "The Gatekeepers" interviews at length the six former heads of the Shin Bet, Israel's internal security service.

To a man, they deeply deplore the fact that Israel's political leaders have been too rigid, hypocritical or indifferent to negotiate with the Arabs.

I think every informed poster here knows the bona fides of Ariel Shalom, one of the bloodiest and most ruthless foes of Israel's Arab enemies. Here he is reflecting on what should be done:

Of all the gatekeepers of the title, Mr. Shalom may have been the most notorious tactician. As the head of the Shin Bet in 1984, he ordered the summary execution of two terrorists who had been captured alive after hijacking an Israeli bus en route from Tel Aviv to Ashkelon. It's fascinating, then, that he now supports the principle of Israel speaking to "anyone we can, even if they answer rudely."

"To Hamas?" Mr. Moreh asks. "To Islamic Jihad?"

"I said everyone," Mr. Shalom replies. "So it includes even Ahmadinejad, whoever. I'm always for it. It's a trait of a professional intelligence operative to talk to everyone. Things get clarified. I see you don't eat glass. He sees I don't drink petrol."

Again, I present to you Mr. Ariel Shalom:

Mr. Shalom says he's afraid to say it, so he won't, but then he does: "We've become cruel. To ourselves as well, but mainly to the occupied population."

Noted anti-Israeli, ultra far left Wall Street Journal's article.

Kind of makes you think, doesn't it, about the ongoing, bloody tragedy of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and Israel's role and culpability in it. Well, at least those among us who are willing to make that effort.

As Carmi Gillion, yet another former head of the Shin Bet said, "We [Israel] are making the lives of millions unbearable"?

 

[Jaskalas]

. . . that we face a frustrating situation in which we win every battle, but we lose the war."

Only thing stopping Israel from having a clear and peaceful victory is the condemnation of the international community, preventing them from claiming and securing enough land.

Israel wins every battle with the Muslims, but it's the international community that is losing them the war. They win every battle because the UN isn't using "battles", but it has taken sides in the war. This is why that quoted statement is truly happening.

We've become cruel.

That is the price of prolonging war and conflict. People on both sides forget their human.

 

[blankslate]

For a long time to come Israel will have a position of strength in the region.

However, trying to at least talk to their adversaries instead of assuming that they will always be enemies seems short sighted to me.

Israel isn't operating in a vacuum however, I would not be surprised if some Foreign Relations experts cite as a contributing factor to Iran going full bore on nuclear research was the invasion of Iraq early in this century.

 

[Perknose]

Only thing stopping Israel from having a clear and peaceful victory is the condemnation of the international community, preventing them from claiming and securing enough land.

Israel wins every battle with the Muslims, but it's the international community that is losing them the war. They win every battle because the UN isn't using "battles", but it has taken sides in the war. This is why that quoted statement is truly happening.



That is the price of prolonging war and conflict. People on both sides forget their human.

Like the only thing stopping us from having a clear and peaceful victory in Vietnam?

Again, did you learn nothing from Vietnam? Have you learned nothing from Iraq or Afghanistan?

I guess the only thing preventing the Kingdom of Great Britain -- which also won pretty near every battle but lost the war -- from, as you put it, "a clear and peaceful victory" over their breakaway rebels in the 13 colonies was . . . what? . . . the condemnation of the international community?

You cannot kill everyone, civilian and non-civilian, in a territory in order to be victorious. History, old and new, is littered with multiple examples of this, but some simply refuse to learn.

 

[Jaskalas]

Is that what the North did to the South? If your lesson is that wars cannot be won, that a people cannot be made to surrender their participation in bloodshed and violence, then you are sorely mistaken.

They would be conquered if the rest of the world simply sat back and watched. I find it puzzling that you think they couldn't be. You've conjured up straw to pretend genocide is the only means to that end.

I hold the international community directly responsible for the unending conflict in the Middle East. This would be akin to the North taking Virginia during the civil war, and then the (if it existed as it does today) UN enters the conflict by condemning the North and economically pressuring it to let the rest of the South continue. Then as the South continued to fight for Virginia, or maybe Washington DC in this case, every action of the North would continue to be condemned.

The UN uses its threats and the victor remains without victory. The natural cessation of hostilities remains beyond reach. If you want to mention Vietnam, I believe the world finally surrendered in its meddling and let the victor take its spoils. We were the ones interfering then as well.

 

[EagleKeeper]

One can learn to talk and listen;

However, it takes two to accomplish something.

 

[Moonbeam]

That GD world opinion crap can be a real bitch.

 

[Moonbeam]

One can learn to talk and listen;

However, it takes two to accomplish something.

But that's the purpose of talking and listening. But you're doing the talking and not listening because you have it already in your mind that the other side is deaf and listening won't accomplish anything with them. You are stuck in your delusion that the problem is the other side. You are the other side.

 

[Perknose]

One can learn to talk and listen;

However, it takes two to accomplish something.

It does. And SIX retired leaders of the Israeli intelligence service, hawks and patriots every single one, all agree that Israel has been sorely deficient in this regard.

 

[sandorski]

Only thing stopping Israel from having a clear and peaceful victory is the condemnation of the international community, preventing them from claiming and securing enough land.

Israel wins every battle with the Muslims, but it's the international community that is losing them the war. They win every battle because the UN isn't using "battles", but it has taken sides in the war. This is why that quoted statement is truly happening.



That is the price of prolonging war and conflict. People on both sides forget their human.

It seems to me that China needs more Land than Israel. You willing to let China expand too?

 

[EagleKeeper]

But that's the purpose of talking and listening. But you're doing the talking and not listening because you have it already in your mind that the other side is deaf and listening won't accomplish anything with them. You are stuck in your delusion that the problem is the other side. You are the other side.

Then there is no solution, because no one is listening

 

[EagleKeeper]

It seems to me that China needs more Land than Israel. You willing to let China expand too?

China has expanded and no one did anything.

 

[EagleKeeper]

It does. And SIX retired leaders of the Israeli intelligence service, hawks and patriots every single one, all agree that Israel has been sorely deficient in this regard.

And there have been no leaders since Sadat of Egypt that have had their ears open on the other side.

Arafat was a two facer.
Abbas is a puppet or the Arab league who can not speak for the Palestinians.
Hamas and Hezbollah previously have talked out of one side of their mouths and refuse to listen unless it cripples Israel responses to provocations.

 

[Dari]

I think the country is far too gone in order for there to be any hope. It is too morally bankrupt. The settlers are too entrenched and their philosophy has won over an exasperated Israeli populace. Israelis are too confident, arrogant, and afraid of losing an inch of land to the Palestinians. These retired men in the OP may sing of peace now but they have blood on their hand. They've seen the abyss and don't want the younger generation to go there. But there's a race to the bottom to be had.

The Arabs themselves are too entrenched. They are dealing with their own internal conflicts right now but they, like their Jewish brothers, are a very vindictive group.

This shit will never end.

 

[Dari]

China has expanded and no one did anything.

Not true. Wars were fought. Against India. There were skirmishes against the Soviet Union.

 

[Perknose]

And there have been no leaders since Sadat of Egypt that have had their ears open on the other side.

Arafat was a two facer.
Abbas is a puppet or the Arab league who can not speak for the Palestinians.
Hamas and Hezbollah previously have talked out of one side of their mouths and refuse to listen unless it cripples Israel responses to provocations.

Yes. This is the other side of that coin, for sure.

 

[Murloc]

it's a demographic war and israel is winning thanks to settlements and hardcore colonists backed by the government.

Very soon a two-state solution will have become impossible without moving around entire cities.
I believe this is what Israel wants, since they believe that is actually their land.
They have to keep up with the palestinian birthrate though.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

It does. And SIX retired leaders of the Israeli intelligence service, hawks and patriots every single one, all agree that Israel has been sorely deficient in this regard.

It's just a matter of time till someone here starts claiming they're anti-semitic.

 

[yllus]

it's a demographic war and israel is winning thanks to settlements and hardcore colonists backed by the government.

Very soon a two-state solution will have become impossible without moving around entire cities.
I believe this is what Israel wants, since they believe that is actually their land.
They have to keep up with the palestinian birthrate though.

I agree. Israel is very simply stalling for time until their population is too numerous to ever be threatened by a short or medium term conflict. A simple and utterly rational course of action.

 

[Whiskey16]

Perknose is spot on -- the crux of diplomacy is dialogue. Closed to dialogue and no resolution is possible. That said, one party is in control and one party remains committed to active and aggressive commission of high international crimes:

Only thing stopping Israel from having a clear and peaceful victory is the condemnation of the international community, preventing them from claiming and securing enough land.

How dare any react to crimes? The audacity!

Fact -- extraterritorial expansion through warfare and the colonisation of such controlled lands are high international crimes.

Jaskalas, you concisely promote Zionists contuning the despicable policy of lebensraum, "We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country..."

For you legal illiterates, must I yet again [1] [2] directly infringed and prevalent international law as ratified by the State of Israel?

You and others may be morally and legally perverse enough to disregard reality when advocating with bias for a certain party, yet that prejudice may not be sufficient to negate reality nor diminish the truth of Israeli state enacted actions may being a focal cause for future and self-inflicted repercussions.

That is the price of prolonging war and conflict. People on both sides forget their human.

You advocate a single party maintain their criminal and expansionist aggression and yet appear to decry both sides "prolonging conflict"? :ninja: Disconnect and misrepresentation is strong here.

 

[Jaskalas]

It seems to me that China needs more Land than Israel. You willing to let China expand too?

4th largest landmass on the planet, China is quite secure in its borders. No one else is claiming Beijing as their own.

 

[Moonbeam]

Then there is no solution, because no one is listening

Correct! Now see that truth. Only when all delusions of escape are abandoned can the prison of the mind collapse. Only when all hope of answers are exhausted is it possible for the mind to flip over and realize it has always been free. There is only love and love is the ground of being. When two persons from each side arise with this understanding and are sent by their people to meet, the answers will come I believe.

There are no Palestinians or Jews or any other thing. We are all people and we are all the same. The place that peace comes from is from that state of mind. You and you alone can bring yourself peace. The lesson humanity needs to acquire is the understanding of the impotency of rage.

 

[Jhhnn]

Only thing stopping Israel from having a clear and peaceful victory is the condemnation of the international community, preventing them from claiming and securing enough land.

Israel wins every battle with the Muslims, but it's the international community that is losing them the war. They win every battle because the UN isn't using "battles", but it has taken sides in the war. This is why that quoted statement is truly happening.



That is the price of prolonging war and conflict. People on both sides forget their human.

Right in there with the Iz-Roy-El Rah-Rah!, huh?

What the leaders of Shin Bet offer is that they've forgotten that the Pals are human, too, something you don't seem to be able to recognize in the slightest.

Perhaps the UN should have brought the state of Israel into existence where you live instead of where other people live, people you find it easy to despise. Maybe you'd look at it differently...

Not that you're capable of fathoming that... any more than you can see the far side of the moon.