Sharon stalls peace plan. *Update* Powell fails to secure concessions from Israel

[Martin]

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030506.wmide0506/BNStory/International/

Jerusalem ? Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon threw a U.S.-backed peace plan into doubt Tuesday, saying the Palestinians must drop their demand for Arab refugees' "right of return" to Israel if negotiations are to proceed.
Israel has always objected to the right of return for about four million Arabs who fled the war that followed Israel's creation in 1948, but never made renouncing the demand a condition for peace talks before.
The new Mideast plan unveiled by Washington last week says the fate of the refugees will be negotiated in the third and final stage of the so-called "road map." The right of return is a cornerstone of Palestinian policy.
But Mr. Sharon told Israel Radio the renunciation by Palestinians "is something Israel insists on and sees it as a condition for continuing the process." The interview marked Israel's Independence Day celebrations.
Israeli officials said the renunciation would have to come before creation of a provisional Palestinian state in the second of the plan's three phases.
The Palestinians already have accepted the road map, which seeks to end 31 months of bloody Mideast violence and lead to a peaceful resolution of the Israel-Arab conflict.
Israel refuses to take blame for the consequences of the two-year war after its creation, when Arab armies invaded the nascent Jewish state and about 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from their homes.

surprise, surprise.


EDIT
Thought I'd post this instead of starting a new thread.

Powell fails to secure concessions from Israel
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-679694,00.html

PRESIDENT BUSH will hold make-or-break White House talks with Ariel Sharon next week after Colin Powell failed to win Israeli concessions over the Middle East peace process. Arab anger and resentment was mounting last night after General Powell, the Secretary of State, appeared to be back-tracking on American commitment to the ?road map? for an independent Palestinian state.
During his trip to the region, General Powell described the road map as ?a work in progress?, rather than a precise plan. He also surprised Arab leaders by saying that it made no difference if Israel did not declare that it was accepting the document, which the Palestinians have already accepted.

 

[ElFenix]

that paper is owned by the bell telco?

like i said in the other thread, theres some pretty intractable difference between the sides... maybe if the palestinians give on some other things the israelis will give on this. but sharon is hardly the most anti-palestinian guy over there.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
that paper is owned by the bell telco?

like i said in the other thread, theres some pretty intractable difference between the sides... maybe if the palestinians give on some other things the israelis will give on this. but sharon is hardly the most anti-palestinian guy over there.

I think the right of return thing is overblown. Theoretically, if all 4 million Palestinians decided to return, it could threaten the Jewish nature of Israel, but even that is debatable. There about 6 million Jews in Isreal and about 1.3 million Israeli Arabs. Even if all 4 million returned (which I think is pretty much impossible), the Jews would still be in the majority. Were Jews denied right of return after the Holoucost? How many actually went back? I know it might not be apples to oranges, but it is pretty close. I think they can come up with some sort of negotiated settlement, like giving those who wish to return a fixed timeframe within which they would have to return. This sounds like stalling, and it has a lot of support from the American right. In fact, as I mentioned in another thread, this same argument was put forward by Pat Robertson on his CBN channel. He said it would invoke the wrath of God and interfere with his plan if the Israelis were to accept the roadmap. Come on now.

BTW ElFinix, Shiner rocks my nuts too.

 

[cpumaster]

man, doesn't Sharon see the irony of his stance? that's almost the equivalent of Arab extremists view of no place for Israel in middle east...

 

[Fencer128]

Is what Sharon is demanding part of the peace plan - or is it an Israeli addition?

Cheers,

Andy

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: Fencer128
Is what Sharon is demanding part of the peace plan - or is it an Israeli addition?

Cheers,

Andy

I haven't read this new roadmap so I don't know what provisions have been incorporated but I can understand Sharon's hesitancy if the settlements are called to be disbanded. IMO, there should be no Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and no right of return for Palestinians.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Fencer128
Is what Sharon is demanding part of the peace plan - or is it an Israeli addition?

Cheers,

Andy

I haven't read this new roadmap so I don't know what provisions have been incorporated but I can understand Sharon's hesitancy if the settlements are called to be disbanded. IMO, there should be no Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and no right of return for Palestinians.

What is written in the agreement is the only thing worth noting. If its not in this new road-map then pressure should be applied to keep with the wording. straying at this early point would send the message that the Israeli's are not serious enough about this.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Fencer128
Is what Sharon is demanding part of the peace plan - or is it an Israeli addition?

Cheers,

Andy

I haven't read this new roadmap so I don't know what provisions have been incorporated but I can understand Sharon's hesitancy if the settlements are called to be disbanded. IMO, there should be no Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and no right of return for Palestinians.

According to international laws though refugees have the right to return, what I would propose is that there will be a fixed number on how many would be allowed to return, maybe something around 1 million instead of 4, that would stop the danger of having suddenly 4 extra million of people in the country even though I doubt even 1 million will actually move there again.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Fencer128
Is what Sharon is demanding part of the peace plan - or is it an Israeli addition?

Cheers,

Andy

I haven't read this new roadmap so I don't know what provisions have been incorporated but I can understand Sharon's hesitancy if the settlements are called to be disbanded. IMO, there should be no Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and no right of return for Palestinians.

According to international laws though refugees have the right to return, what I would propose is that there will be a fixed number on how many would be allowed to return, maybe something around 1 million instead of 4, that would stop the danger of having suddenly 4 extra million of people in the country even though I doubt even 1 million will actually move there again.

Well, until I read the proposed roadmap I'll refrain from further comment on Sharon's stance, but another thing I do not understand, if 700,000 fled or were expelled, where does the number of 4 million come from? I mean the West Bank has a population of about 2.2 million and Gaza has a population of about 1.2 million, that's only 3.4 million total. And of those original 700,000, given the birth and death rate, I would still think there would be a maximum of 2.5 million with any right to return. Where does this 4 million number come from when not even the total population of Gaza and the West Bank comprise that number?

 

[Alistar7]

He can be removed from the process much like Arafat was, they are both equally at fault for alot of the current crisis anyway, Sharon's actions are no less despicable, he just had the benefit of a state to hide behind.

Hopefully the US will use every bit of it's pressure to force Israel to give back all settlements, I will be sorely disappointed with anything less.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
He can be removed from the process much like Arafat was, they are both equally at fault for alot of the current crisis anyway, Sharon's actions are no less despicable, he just had the benefit of a state to hide behind.

Hopefully the US will use every bit of it's pressure to force Israel to give back all settlements, I will be sorely disappointed with anything less.

I agree, like I said in my earlier post, there are ways to deal with the right of return issue. If Sharon scraps this opportunity for peace, it will be a sad sad thing. The question is, will the US stand up to Israel? History paints a bleak picture.

 

[jjones]

Well, I just read this summary of the roadmap. I hadn't realized it wasn't made public yet but apparently much of it has been leaked or surmised. I'll recant my statement about Sharon. I do not see a real problem in going forward with the roadmap as Israel doesn not have to address the settlements, and Palestine does not have to address the refugees, until the third phase of the plan. The first two phases put an end to violence, gives Israel recognition by Palestinians, Palestine recognition by Israelis, and puts Palestinians squarely on the road to reform, sovereignty, and economic recovery.

Finally having read this, I'd have to say that the US should put every possible pressure on Sharon to accept the roadmap.

 

[peonyu]

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Fencer128
Is what Sharon is demanding part of the peace plan - or is it an Israeli addition?

Cheers,

Andy

I haven't read this new roadmap so I don't know what provisions have been incorporated but I can understand Sharon's hesitancy if the settlements are called to be disbanded. IMO, there should be no Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and no right of return for Palestinians.

According to international laws though refugees have the right to return, what I would propose is that there will be a fixed number on how many would be allowed to return, maybe something around 1 million instead of 4, that would stop the danger of having suddenly 4 extra million of people in the country even though I doubt even 1 million will actually move there again.

Well, until I read the proposed roadmap I'll refrain from further comment on Sharon's stance, but another thing I do not understand, if 700,000 fled or were expelled, where does the number of 4 million come from? I mean the West Bank has a population of about 2.2 million and Gaza has a population of about 1.2 million, that's only 3.4 million total. And of those original 700,000, given the birth and death rate, I would still think there would be a maximum of 2.5 million with any right to return. Where does this 4 million number come from when not even the total population of Gaza and the West Bank comprise that number?

These refugees arent included in the Gaza/W.Bank numbers, thier seperate. These 4million refugees in question are descendants of 700,000 palestinians who fled Israel in the late 40's-early 1950's and today live in neighboring countries-Sinai-egypt, Lebanon etc.

And to add my 2$, I dont think they should be allowed back in, theres 5.4million Jews in Israel, and 1.3 million Palestinians, so asking Israel to allow 4 million more in is like asking Israel to commit suicide.

 

[Bulk Beef]

Right of return is not going to happen. The Palestinians know it - they always have. THAT is why they will insist on it.

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
He can be removed from the process much like Arafat was, they are both equally at fault for alot of the current crisis anyway, Sharon's actions are no less despicable, he just had the benefit of a state to hide behind.

Hopefully the US will use every bit of it's pressure to force Israel to give back all settlements, I will be sorely disappointed with anything less.

THAT was unexpected... but i applaud your opinion in this case...

And i agree, all of the settlements, including the golan heights, the wall has to come down, wow, Alistar, i think we actually agree on this...

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: SnapIT

Originally posted by: Alistar7
He can be removed from the process much like Arafat was, they are both equally at fault for alot of the current crisis anyway, Sharon's actions are no less despicable, he just had the benefit of a state to hide behind.

Hopefully the US will use every bit of it's pressure to force Israel to give back all settlements, I will be sorely disappointed with anything less.

THAT was unexpected... but i applaud your opinion in this case...

And i agree, all of the settlements, including the golan heights, the wall has to come down, wow, Alistar, i think we actually agree on this...

ditto

 

[Martin]

bump for the update

 

[Mookow]

Does Israel even physically have the capacity to have another million people inside its borders? Housing, water, electricity... All these would have to be quickly increased. In a country with their polulation, 1 million more people would be a huge shock.

 

[Vadatajs]

Israel isn't worth futher tarnishing our image to the arab world. We should let them fend for themselves.

 

[Dari]

Sharon is nothing more than a dirty politician who knows how to play hardball. Well, I say that we should play hardball and see who blinks first. That fat bastard wants to ruin everything so that those religious zealots can stay on land that will surely bring death and sorrow to the whole region. Time for regime change in Jerusalem.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: Dari
Sharon is nothing more than a dirty politician who knows how to play hardball. Well, I say that we should play hardball and see who blinks first. That fat bastard wants to ruin everything so that those religious zealots can stay on land that will surely bring death and sorrow to the whole region. Time for regime change in Jerusalem.

A rarity: we agree.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: SnapIT

Originally posted by: Alistar7
He can be removed from the process much like Arafat was, they are both equally at fault for alot of the current crisis anyway, Sharon's actions are no less despicable, he just had the benefit of a state to hide behind.

Hopefully the US will use every bit of it's pressure to force Israel to give back all settlements, I will be sorely disappointed with anything less.

THAT was unexpected... but i applaud your opinion in this case...

And i agree, all of the settlements, including the golan heights, the wall has to come down, wow, Alistar, i think we actually agree on this...

ditto

I knew you guys would come around eventually...