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Shark Fin Ban in California

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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,935
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Wtf? I like it, it tastes good. That said, I'm in favor of banning shark finning where the shark is only used for its fins. I have no problem if the entire shark is used and not discarded, in a sustainable manner.
do you like shark fin? the actual protein? is it, in any way, relevant to the taste, texture of the dish?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,935
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Just curious Capt Caveman, do you also agree with this statement by zinfamous?
"It's just so some shrimpy asshat can have a few ror's with his buddies about an expensive a dish they can purchase."
there's maybe...10 millionaires in China, 1 billionaire.

so amongst those guys, they either have their rors, or they don't give a shit.

Then there's the millions of $200k guys will eat it when they can, until they realize "wtf is this garbage that I paid for?"

:awe:
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Administrator
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
162
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www.slatebrookfarm.com
So why didn't Calif. pass a law that only "approved" or "sustainable" fins are legal instead of a blanket ban of all of them? From fair trade coffee to conflict-free diamonds there are ways to ensure that products are properly taken, my opinion is that this step wasn't taken because most Americans don't eat shark fin soup, but they do drink coffee, eat tuna and wear diamonds. This was a cultural ban, not a practical one.
A lot of people like to hunt for trophy racks - big deer, caribou, moose, etc. In the majority of states that I'm familiar with, it's illegal to cut the head off and leave the body behind to waste.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
Just curious Capt Caveman, do you also agree with this statement by zinfamous?
"It's just so some shrimpy asshat can have a few ror's with his buddies about an expensive a dish they can purchase."
Sure b/c it's true for some people. What's your point for the question? Being Chinese, we have a lot of ignorant/stupid/cruel traditions like many other cultures.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,935
20,873
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So why didn't Calif. pass a law that only "approved" or "sustainable" fins are legal instead of a blanket ban of all of them? From fair trade coffee to conflict-free diamonds there are ways to ensure that products are properly taken, my opinion is that this step wasn't taken because most Americans don't eat shark fin soup, but they do drink coffee, eat tuna and wear diamonds. This was a cultural ban, not a practical one.
this is an ecological sustainability ban. nothing more.

stop being an ignorant race-baiting pus bucket.
 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
125
106
So why didn't Calif. pass a law that only "approved" or "sustainable" fins are legal instead of a blanket ban of all of them? From fair trade coffee to conflict-free diamonds there are ways to ensure that products are properly taken, my opinion is that this step wasn't taken because most Americans don't eat shark fin soup, but they do drink coffee, eat tuna and wear diamonds. This was a cultural ban, not a practical one.
You're just being silly at this point.

We already precisely covered why your suggested sustainable fin ban option was not practical. That WOULD have made the ban ineffective by giving cover for restaurants to bring in shark fins caught illegally while claiming they were all from legit sources, the illegal sources would certainly be far cheaper. (By contrast the current law means if genuine shark fin soup is offered in the future, they are violating the law.)

The US DOES have a law which is supposed to prevent true "blood diamonds from being imported, the problem is it actually doesn't always work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_diamond#Conflict_diamond_campaign

Note that this is with a rather expensive item where the cost of tracking and regulation per individual sale is more viable.

Fair trade coffee is obviously an applies to oranges comparison. The obvious question is "how on earth are you going to define what is legally considered fair trade?" If you specify that one of specific organizations already doing the certifying gets to definite it, you're giving an incredible amount of power to an organization utterly unaccountable to California voters. Alternately if you try to specify all the details of what qualifies as fair trade in the law itself, you're creating an incredibly ugly regulatory situation which would basically fit in with conservatives' worst nightmares regarding how they see what liberals want creating problematic regulations which causes government to micromanage how businesses are run.

A final point regarding the cultural argument you keep on bringing up is that it doesn't fit with how California has also already passed a law which will ban foie gras in 2012.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_foie_gras_law

While you can argue that not everyone in California eats foie gras either, it certainly isn't a dish that is culturally Asian in origin. (Just look at the name.)

For that matter, even though clearly the overwhelming portion of California voters definitely eat eggs in some form, California voters were perfectly willing to pass a law banning conditions commonly seen in "battery farms" of the time in which a considerable portion of the chicken eggs laid in California were produced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_2_%282008)

The point is that Californians are clearly perfectly willing to pass laws in reaction to animal cruelty or environmental issues regardless of whose culture it impacts and the claim this is all about discrimination against Chinese simply doesn't make sense.
 
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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
0
0
You're just being silly at this point.

We already precisely covered why your suggested sustainable fin ban option was not practical. That WOULD have made the ban ineffective by giving cover for restaurants to bring in shark fins caught illegally while claiming they were all from legit sources, the illegal sources would certainly be far cheaper. (By contrast the current law means if genuine shark fin soup is offered in the future, they are violating the law.)

The US DOES have a law which is supposed to prevent true "blood diamonds from being imported, the problem is it actually doesn't always work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_diamond#Conflict_diamond_campaign

Note that this is with a rather expensive item where the cost of tracking and regulation per individual sale is more viable.

Fair trade coffee is obviously an applies to oranges comparison. The obvious question is "how on earth are you going to define what is legally considered fair trade?" If you specify that one of specific organizations already doing the certifying gets to definite it, you're giving an incredible amount of power to an organization utterly unaccountable to California voters. Alternately if you try to specify all the details of what qualifies as fair trade in the law itself, you're creating an incredibly ugly regulatory situation which would basically fit in with conservatives' worst nightmares regarding how they see what liberals want creating problematic regulations which causes government to micromanage how businesses are run.

A final point regarding the cultural argument you keep on bringing up is that it doesn't fit with how California has also already passed a law which will ban foie gras in 2012.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_foie_gras_law

While you can argue that not everyone in California eats foie gras either, it certainly isn't a dish that is culturally Asian in origin. (Just look at the name.)

For that matter, even though clearly the overwhelming portion of California voters definitely eat eggs in some form, California voters were perfectly willing to pass a law banning conditions commonly seen in "battery farms" of the time in which a considerable portion of the chicken eggs laid in California were produced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_2_(2008)

The point is that Californians are clearly perfectly willing to pass laws in reaction to animal cruelty or environmental issues regardless of whose culture it impacts and the claim this is all about discrimination against Chinese simply doesn't make sense.
Excellent points, but i still disagree with you that an importation ban along with licensing or permitting of sustainable shark fishing/farming is an impossibility. The extreme high price of the product along with the other uses of shark might have made it a workable proposition.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,935
20,873
136
Why didn't the French protest the various Foi gras bans around the country, as a direct racial attack?

If anything, we were a very "anti-French" country at the time, what with Bush and the Fox viewers running rampant around the media, broadcasting their lulz. We depend on China--then and now. Why would we want to attack them? Is this yet another "You can't force us to value our currency at the proper world economic level" BS deflection? wtf?




plus...how is one going to farm raise sharks to sustain shark fin? seriously....a farm-raised hunter? wow.

we're barely at the point where the consumer will tolerate farm-raised shrimp, of all things.
 
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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
0
0
Why didn't the French protest the various Foi gras bans around the country, as a direct racial attack?

If anything, we were a very "anti-French" country at the time, what with Bush and the Fox viewers running rampant around the media, broadcasting their lulz. We depend on China--then and now. Why would we want to attack them? Is this yet another "You can't force us to value our currency at the proper world economic level" BS deflection? wtf?




plus...how is one going to farm raise sharks to sustain shark fin? seriously....a farm-raised hunter? wow.

we're barely at the point where the consumer will tolerate farm-raised shrimp, of all things.
Did you read the link about the sharks at the golf course? People catch sharks all the time in regular fishing, i've caught them myself with anchovies out of Huntington Beach. To pretend that sustainable, regulated fishing for sharks isn't possible or that all shark fishing consists of finning is a lie.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
3,271
0
0
Did you read the link about the sharks at the golf course? People catch sharks all the time in regular fishing, i've caught them myself with anchovies out of Huntington Beach. To pretend that sustainable, regulated fishing for sharks isn't possible or that all shark fishing consists of finning is a lie.
its pretty well documented that fish populations (and shark populations) all over the world have started crashing due to overfishing. Sharks can take years to reach maturity and the way large scale oceanic fishing works (hint: its hard to tell if people are following the rules. you think catching poachers on land is hard? even worse at sea.) sharks are being killed by the thousands before being able to replenish their stocks.

THe problem with the oceans is that your average layman can't look at the ocean and say 'okay, this looks bad'. You can do so for the land, because its clearer. But only those experts dedicated enough to monitor the pulse and balance of the ocean only have any real idea as to what is going on.

They have been ringing the alarm bells fairly loudly for the past couple years, because the general health of ocean ecosystems is in serious decline, due to overfishing and destruction of habitat (dredging, miles-long net fishing etc). They're trying to make an impact on shark populations before things become unrecoverable, and California is doing their part to help.

It's too bad its more likely that China will destroy ocean stocks wherever it can. Not that the chinese really give a shit. If they're willing to feed melamine to babies and substitute trash for concrete in their bridges why would they give a shit about the ocean. Unfortunately in China its mostly about making a quick buck; as little as the West seems to have learned about ecological stewardship and regard for your fellow man, China seems to be totally ignorant about it.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,385
1,516
126
Did you read the link about the sharks at the golf course? People catch sharks all the time in regular fishing, i've caught them myself with anchovies out of Huntington Beach. To pretend that sustainable, regulated fishing for sharks isn't possible or that all shark fishing consists of finning is a lie.

I'll just leave this here



http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/10/2000-sharks-slaughtered-off-colombia-for-their-fins/1

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/oct/19/shark-massacre-colombia

With emphasis on:

"I received a report, which is really unbelievable, from one of the divers who came from Russia to observe the large concentrations of sharks in Malpelo. They saw a large number of fishing trawlers entering the zone illegally," Bessudo said. The divers counted a total of 10 fishing boats, which all were flying the Costa Rican flag.
The sanctuary covers 8,570 square kilometres of marine environment that provides a habitat for threatened marine species &#8211; in particular sharks. Divers have reported sightings of schools of more than 200 hammerhead sharks and as many as 1,000 silky sharks in the protected waters, one of the few areas in the world where sightings of short-nosed ragged-toothed shark, known locally as the "Malpelo monster," have been confirmed. In 2006 Unesco included the park on its list of World Heritage sites.

Bessudo, a marine biologist, has spent much of her career in Malpelo and fighting to preserve the unique marine environment there.

But the high concentration of sharks in Malpelo and the remoteness of the marine sanctuary draws illegal fishing boats from nearby nations which trap the sharks, strip them of their fins, and throw them back into the water. Shark fin soup, considered a delicacy of Chinese cuisine, can fetch &#163;63 per bowl in a Hong Kong restaurant.
 
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