True, either way works. Still, the fact that they realized that the religion should not be a part of the government is one of the things that makes it great.
I wish the US had burned Vietnamese effigies instead of Vietnamese people.
It's funny, the moment a people 'move past' something, they become the most intolerant, self-righteous people about others doing it.
Once we pass the Civil Rights Act of 1965, for example, any nation with racism in its laws is backwards and barbaric.
I have a simple test for you to see who has moved past what: count the bodies.
It's not that that's a fair test, but it is to try to get you to see a little past the cultural biases.
Those biases can greatly color perception.
Take the millions of American Muslims. They seem to me one of our most peaceful demographics, and yet that doesn't seem to affect the broad attacks on the Muslim religion. Imagine if the Muslims in our country had crime rates switched with our African-American people - there would be a huge uproar about the evils of Islam for that, about deporting all the Muslims, because of the heightened sensitivity to anything Muslims do.
Imagine the US was careless about the fact there would be a risk of civilian casualties when it had a rumor where Saddam might be, to try to bomb him (in fact, it shouldn't be hard, as we did 50 such missions, which killed quite a few civilians). Then imagine insurgents beheading a handful of prisoners. Which gets the greater reaction?
What's more inhumane - the way Muslims treat most of their prisoners, or the practices with sensory deprivation and other techniques used by us against prisoners? I challenge you to read Naomi Klein's book, 'The Shock Doctrine', on those techniques, and then tell me that our practices are not far more immoral. People often come out of our system with permanent and severe mental damage, but we wag our fingers their direction.
Apples, meet oranges. Oranges, meet apples. You insist on comparing completely different situations and drawing conclusions form invalid comparisons.
We're not talking about the actions of a particular government, you can debate how horrible US government actions over the years have been to your hearts content, but that has nothing to do with the discussion.
DarkThinker
Platinum Member
- Mar 17, 2007
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Big deal...let them have it.
In Lebanon (where I am from originally) we have the Lebanese constitution and we also have Sharia courts and Christian courts. Muslim affairs dealing with marriage issues, inheritance, family disputes ...etc are presided over by an Islamic court, the same applies to Christians who have their own courts.
And when it comes to general things, like for instance robbery trials, murder trials, violations, contracts, civil violations...etc a constitutional court presides over such issues. But the plus side is that for those who only want the Lebanese constitutional court to preside over their matters of dispute, can elect to do so (like for instance, having their marriage arranged and presided over by a civil court not a religious one).
So far I haven't heard a single person complain about those courts, because freedom of choice exists. So why not have the same in the UK?
However, I will stay by my traditional general stance of UK Muslims.....they are mostly NUTS
In Lebanon (where I am from originally) we have the Lebanese constitution and we also have Sharia courts and Christian courts. Muslim affairs dealing with marriage issues, inheritance, family disputes ...etc are presided over by an Islamic court, the same applies to Christians who have their own courts.
And when it comes to general things, like for instance robbery trials, murder trials, violations, contracts, civil violations...etc a constitutional court presides over such issues. But the plus side is that for those who only want the Lebanese constitutional court to preside over their matters of dispute, can elect to do so (like for instance, having their marriage arranged and presided over by a civil court not a religious one).
So far I haven't heard a single person complain about those courts, because freedom of choice exists. So why not have the same in the UK?
However, I will stay by my traditional general stance of UK Muslims.....they are mostly NUTS
Interesting setup, I didn't know that's how it worked in Lebanon. Where that gets to be problematic is when disputes arise between parties of different faiths, or when there are conflicts between the different courts, I'm guessing that gets messy.
I'm glad too, but the UK does have an "official" religion, and the Anglican courts' decision do have official recognition and force. So what's wrong with Islam having its own courts' decisions recognized and enforced? Same with Jewish courts, BTW, which have been functioning alongside the UK courts just nicely.
No, I say that you have cultural biases making you inaccurately weight one side's behaviors differently than others, and you respond that you see them as different.
It's always nice to have my point proven so clearly. Note the difference between your *alleging* they're different as a conclusion, and actually making the case that they are.
Ok, so remind me again when the last Christian "honor killing" took place? And perhaps you could share the last time Christians chose to punish a rape victim with lashes? Or, point out the last time someone was sentenced to death for trying to leave the Christian faith to join a different faith? Sure, plenty of Christians do heinous things, but they are not accepted as normal behavior by the society.
We'll just agree to disagree on this. The Brits (and most of western Europeans) are allowing their society to rot from the inside out in the name of tolerance and political correctness. You've drawn your conclusions, I've drawn mine, further debate is not likely to change anyone's opinion.
So now we're taking Lebanon as an example of how to administer law and order? The reason why Lebanon is like it is today is because of pandering to religious interests, not inspite of it.
You're not getting it. The point I made was that culural bias makes you weigh others' wrongs more heavily and to discount your own.
You continue to prove the point by citing things that are specific to the Muslim culture (or in some of your examples small parts of it), and miss the point that you're doing just what I said, concentrating on their actions as uniquely horrible while not seeing the problems on your own side. You are appearing to not get that it's not the exact same behaviors, as you ask for Christian 'honor killings' and so on.
First, honor killings are outlawed, and each story I see with a horrific tale is followed by the person who did it going to jail for it. They are all too present still, apparently in mostly rural areas with more backwards traditions. Second, how many Muslim nations 'punish a rape victim with lashes' in their law? Third, how many Muslims who want to convert are executed?
Now, you discount the countless examples elsewhere. Government-controlled Death Squads throughough Central America consist mostly of Catholics - despite, for example, some of them raping and killing nuns and assassinating an Archbishop. We killed 2 million Vietnamese for no good reason in a misguided war, with bombs, napalm, agent orange and other weapons - with forces mostly made of Christians. Mexico has countless hundreds of mysteriously murdered women where law enforcement turns a blind eye.
I could name many examples, the point being, that when you look for the other side having bad behavior, and not your own, you get a warped opinion.
The things you cite are horrific. So are our society's highest incarceration rate in the world, our society's high drug addiction and crime rates - things that I'm suspecting if the numbers were reversed, you would be quick to say are flaws with their culture. I can show you in this forum a thread with a number of likely Christian posters calling for the raping and/or killing of a pedophile in jail recently.
Do I need to talk about the barbaric torture by our country against many foreign prisoners?
I know you may be tempted to say, all those things on our side are explainable compared to the other side. They feel the same way, in reverse, I'd bet.
We need to condemn and recognize the wrongs of both.
DarkThinker
Platinum Member
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Specop 007
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This pretty much proves to me this man, and more to the point his party, are truly the enemy of this country.
Without question and without fail I view far left liberals every bit as dangerous and as bad as Islamic extremists. I dont know why you wish to destroy this country.
Specop 007
Diamond Member
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DarkThinker
Platinum Member
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Sure we have the dirtiest politicians in the whole continent I'll give you that, but keep in mind it's Lebanon's laws and constitution that put it ahead of many other countries back when we weren't catapulted into the Israeli-Arab struggle. Had Lebanon not been crammed between two of the dirtiest countries in the world I think by now Lebanon, would have been an example for even Israel to learn from......but not to go off topic here, All I am saying is that, in a country where your religious identity is extremely important, at some point the structure of your country will end up reflecting that fact, either others like it or not.
Ironically, that's not how Lebanon was formed, it was formed by people setting aside their religious identities for the sake of their nation's future.
irishScott
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2006
- 21,568
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What?
Your point appears to be "Other cultures have committed atrocities, therefore we can't call out the Muslims on their atrocities, because they don't view them as atrocities, just like we don't view out atrocities as atrocities".
There are so many problems with that it's pathetic. In the context of your post:
1. Every decent-minded person with half a brain acknowledges that killing millions of people during wartime by any method is an atrocity. Wwe didn't cheer it when came on the news. When the WTC was attacked, there were literally Muslims dancing and cheering in the streets of the middle east. I'm not saying that that's representative of all Muslims, but the number that did so was astonishing.
2. I don't know anyone who doesn't view high incarceration rates and drug addiction as a flaw in our cultures. Aside from the druggies and low-lifes, no one embraces it. Besides, the rate of teenage smoking is dropping, and smoking is now widely considered to be disgusting as opposed to sexy. Society doesn't change over night, and with that in mind we're not doing bad at all.
3. Barbaric torture? Lol. The worst that was allowed to legally happen was water-boarding. Take a look at Algeria where they beat prisoners to a pulp, starve and dehydrate them. and mutilate them with electric drills. Never mind that torture is only used as a last ditch emergency effort to gain critical intelligence.
4. Sure, a lot of people call for that stuff. The difference is sharia law calls for similar treatment of the victim as opposed to the criminal.
On your final point: Great. So everyone's done the wrong thing and made horrific mistakes. I fail to see how that justifies further atrocities on any side; or saying that because we are also guilty from their perspective we shouldn't call them out on their atrocities.
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
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See in this modern age I think of gender as a hinderance. You're just one of those old fashioned closed mind sexists trying to old people back.
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
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What part of "a good idea" did you miss?
Craig is the type of guy who wants to destroy America in any way possible. Damn the white christian, tax the successful, disband the military, offer free medical care to anyone who wants it.
You name it. Craig is the festering rot inside America.
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