Shader article (SM3) at Bit-tech

[nRollo]

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/07/25/guide_to_shaders/1.html

 

[mwmorph]

it's a nice article.
While Shader 2.0 was good last year and early this year. When the 7800 came out, it was time to move on. ATI was competitive until the slightly bfore the 7800gtx due to better speed in DX9 games with identical settings, but now there is no one that will buy a x850xtpe in their right minds.

Though i'd like to see how good and slow a 32k instruction length ps and vs would look, it seems built fro overkill. I dont see a way even slied 7800gtx would run a 32k length code right.

The only real advantges are Backface Registers which seem like a giant step forward, while Dynamic branching only make it easier for the programmer.

edot: as a side note, does anyone have a screenie of what windows vista/longhor will look like? I'd never upgrade, being unable to afford all the crap needed to do stuff like listen to music due to the DRM restrictions, but maybe a WinXP theme is in order.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
it's a nice article.
While Shader 2.0 was good last year and early this year. When the 7800 came out, it was time to move on. ATI was competitive until the slightly bfore the 7800gtx, but now there is no one that will buy a x850xtpe in their right minds.

Though i'd like to see how good and slow a 32k instruction lenght ps and vs would look, it seems built fro overkill. I dont see a way even slied 7800gtx would run a 32k length vode right.

The only real advantges are Backface Registers which seem like a giant step forward, while Dynamic branching only make it easier for the programmer.

I agree.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
it's a nice article.
While Shader 2.0 was good last year and early this year. When the 7800 came out, it was time to move on. ATI was competitive until the slightly bfore the 7800gtx, but now there is no one that will buy a x850xtpe in their right minds.

There's still plenty good reason to buy an X850XT PE. Price/Performance ratio. PCI-E version can be had for $350 (possibly $75 less than that with MIR). $267 AR for an AIW X800XT recently or $250 for regular AGP X800XT currently. BB is having an upcoming sale on AGP X800XL for $250 AR. That's a good amount of processing power for the dollar.

Obviously they're not 7800GTX level, but they're no slouch and will give good framerates with current games. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who don't want to spend nearly $500 on a video card when they can get good performance for nearly half that.

 

[mwmorph]

I didnt notice they fell that far in price. I was under the impression that the X850xtpe was still in the $400-450 range. At $350, it is a great price, but with so many games that use parallax mapping and displacement mapping coming out now or soon, it just seems a shame such a powerful card wont let you use the power to it's maximum potential.

For $350, it's worth it, but i would be mildly dissapointed at what i'm missing out. With all that power and no way to really stress and harness it to it's full extent. It's like a Nuclear Power plant without a engineer or a manual.

 

[hans030390]

many people would take an x850 over a 7800 just because of price. still, i see a 6800ultra being a better choice than an x850 just because of Sm3...well, that is, at least i see it being better. I'm just assuming (so dont quote me if i'm wrong) that next gen games will run much better on 6 series cards than x000 cards just because of sm3....did i say it'd run well? no.

At least this shows exactly how sm3 is better. and yes, sm2 cannot do what sm3 can do (not all of it i mean)...such as displacement mapping (will make sm2 bump/normal mapping crappy) which actually gives shadows for the little bumps that it might make! i dont recall normal mapping giving off shadows for the "fake" bumps it makes. or something.

and it says that xbox360 is only sm3.0...no 2.0 in there. it's dead. know what that means? most next gen games will be SM3 only. why? sm2 doesnt look good, and if it tried to run games on a sm3 quality scale, it would kill performance.

from the article, "...there appears to be little sense, in terms of graphics quality, in buying an ATI card at the moment"

it's just as i had said before.

 

[Munky]

I would say there's little sense in buying either a x850xt or a 6800gt/u if you're looking for maximum graphics quality, because neither will be fast enough to run future games at maxed out settings, and even SLI'd 6800's will not have transparency AA, so not as good IQ. You basically have to get either a gf7-based card or wait for the r520.

As far as price/performance goes, either the x850xt ot the 6800gt are still good cards, and they're plenty fast, just dont expect to run future games at 16x12 with full eye candy.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: hans030390
many people would take an x850 over a 7800 just because of price. still, i see a 6800ultra being a better choice than an x850 just because of Sm3...well, that is, at least i see it being better. I'm just assuming (so dont quote me if i'm wrong) that next gen games will run much better on 6 series cards than x000 cards just because of sm3....did i say it'd run well? no.

At least this shows exactly how sm3 is better. and yes, sm2 cannot do what sm3 can do (not all of it i mean)...such as displacement mapping (will make sm2 bump/normal mapping crappy) which actually gives shadows for the little bumps that it might make! i dont recall normal mapping giving off shadows for the "fake" bumps it makes. or something.

And again, we get back to "What good are the features if the card isn't powerful enough to use them"?

Originally posted by: hans030390
and it says that xbox360 is only sm3.0...no 2.0 in there. it's dead. know what that means? most next gen games will be SM3 only.

You're referring to a console game, not a PC game. SM2.0 is not dead.

Originally posted by: hans030390
why? sm2 doesnt look good

Really? Funny thing to say when Half-Life 2 won over 40 Game of the Year awards using it.

Originally posted by: hans030390
and if it tried to run games on a sm3 quality scale, it would kill performance.

That's why games offer selectable graphics levels. So people can choose what graphics options fits their system specs the best.

Originally posted by: hans030390
from the article, "...there appears to be little sense, in terms of graphics quality, in buying an ATI card at the moment"

it's just as i had said before.

And if the SM3/SM2 video cards were the exact same price, this would be true. But a number of ATI video cards have a substantial price advantage over their Nvidia counterparts. That fact alone is a major selling point.

 

[hans030390]

I'm sorry, i meant SM2.0 won't look as good as SM3...cmon...HL2 vs UT2007 (2006, i dunno)...which looks better? thats right. UT2007...why? because it has to use sm3 to look that good. Sure, 2.0 would still look nice, but i think then you'd notice a good difference in image quality between the two shader models.

and who said a 6800 can't run next gen games well? thats not the point, but if a 6800 wont run it with sm3, an x800 sure as hell wont run it on 2.0. my point is not how well it performs...you might as well get a 7800 if the 6800's wont be "good enough"

SM2 isnt dead...yet...but if xbox 360 is on sm3, i wouldnt doubt it if MOST next gen games are sm3 only for pc. consoles and PCs aren't as different as they used to be.

i think most people will want to play next gen games for the graphics...thats why you'd want a sm3 card (6800 or above, possible 6600gt if you want to turn any eye candy).

yeah...if 6 series was sm2, then ati would have the advantage because the 6 series would be overpriced. but with sm3, for FUTURE games you'd want the 6 series because they have it. sure, most people will ignore this, but what if you had no money and were stuck with an x800 trying to play UE3 games? (i know this is stupid) but i have heard that UE3 will be sm3 only.

Look, i'm not exactly sure we're understanding each other exactly so i really don't want to argue or anything.

 

[trinibwoy]

Originally posted by: Creig
You're referring to a console game, not a PC game. SM2.0 is not dead.

Both true but I hope you do realize that the console landscape is going to change dramatically. With the advent of standard HD support, Microsoft's XNA, Sony's partnership with Nvidia and the number of big name console publishers making inroads into the PC space we are going to see a lot more cross platform games. Most PC only games will probably be coded to SM2.0 but there will likely be a higher number of quality console ports coded to the SM3.0 spec. Not to mention titles based on UE3.

Time will tell how much effort developers will put into SM2.0 fallback paths and the impact on the gaming experience. SM3.0 is in its infancy - as developers get more familiar with the hardware we will see more of its potential.

I wouldnt be surprised to see most upcoming high profile titles coded for SM3.0 since every single product from both major IHV's will support it by Q1 06. As much as r420 owners love to chant how they don't need SM3.0 it must sting when you're in the video settings screen and see "Unsupported" next to an available feature.

 

[fstime]

My opinion on SM3.

We heard all this stuff, it's a MUST have.

Currently, few games support it, I dont even own a game with SM3.

HL2 vs UT2007, hmmm, well lets see, you think your 6600GT could even run that game with all the goodies on high?

SM3 probably wont even matter there since the 6 series may start to struggle at games like UT2007.

On cards like the GTX, SM3 is a must.

Last gen, wasn't really needed.

 

[trinibwoy]

Originally posted by: BouZouki
Last gen, wasn't really needed.

Really? Exactly what hardware was used to develop the next generation games that we'll be playing on our G70's and R520's?

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: BouZouki
My opinion on SM3.

We heard all this stuff, it's a MUST have.

Currently, few games support it, I dont even own a game with SM3.

I have several: Lego Star Wars, Far Cry, Painkiller, SC:CT, and I notice the BF2 that arrived today has DX9C compatible in the system requirements?

HL2 vs UT2007, hmmm, well lets see, you think your 6600GT could even run that game with all the goodies on high?

Maybe not. It's a good thing I'm running the 6800GT SLI set and the 7800GTX SLI set. I've heard the Unreal 3 engine scales almost double with SLI.

SM3 probably wont even matter there since the 6 series may start to struggle at games like UT2007.

You can't say that, because you have no way of knowing[/quote]

On cards like the GTX, SM3 is a must.

Last gen, wasn't really needed.

Wrong again, SC:CT works great with 6800GT SLI, others may follow.

 

[fstime]

Far Cry, Painkiller, SC:CT are the only games, I dont know how many people haved interest in playing Legos.

Farcry HDR gives you serious fps drops on the 6 series.

Back when the XL was $100 less than the 6800GT, IMO i'd rather take $100 rather than SM3 for 3 games that benifit from it and one of the three games will make your card struggle.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: trinibwoy

Originally posted by: BouZouki
Last gen, wasn't really needed.

Really? Exactly what hardware was used to develop the next generation games that we'll be playing on our G70's and R520's?

No doubt. If people don't reward the companies that push technology forward by buying their products, technology won't get pushed forward.

That is one thing that annoys me a lot about the ATI crowd with their "Wait for the R520" stance:
They're waiting for a card to play next year games on that wouldn't exist if it wasn't for nVidia. There would be no displacement mapping, no soft shadows, no HDR- NONE of the stuff that is actually changing the way games look for the better.

Why you guys want to reward the follower and not the leader is beyond me.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: BouZouki
Far Cry, Painkiller, SC:CT are the only games, I dont know how many people haved interest in playing Legos.

You're not a kid? My five year old LOVES Lego Star Wars, reviewers like it too:
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/legostarwars/index.html?q=Lego
Are you saying the BF2 box just says "DX9c on video for the heck of it? Beyond that, Pitfall and Pacific Fighters are SM3.

Farcry HDR gives you serious fps drops on the 6 series.

It's still pretty playable with SLI. :roll:

Back when the XL was $100 less than the 6800GT, IMO i'd rather take $100 rather than SM3 for 3 games that benifit from it and one of the three games will make your card struggle.

What about Riddick? You can make sacrifice after sacrifice if you like, but there comes a point when you have to say "Holy crap my card is a piece of junk! It seems like every other game coming out has something I can't see in it."

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Rollo
Are you saying the BF2 box just says "DX9c on video for the heck of it? Beyond that, Pitfall and Pacific Fighters are SM3.

But they're not SM3.0 ONLY. You can play them with SM2.0 hardware and you'll only be missing a couple of visual options.

Farcry HDR gives you serious fps drops on the 6 series.

Originally posted by: Rollo
It's still pretty playable with SLI. :roll:

So you need two cards to be "pretty playable".

Back when the XL was $100 less than the 6800GT, IMO i'd rather take $100 rather than SM3 for 3 games that benifit from it and one of the three games will make your card struggle.

Originally posted by: Rollo
What about Riddick? You can make sacrifice after sacrifice if you like, but there comes a point when you have to say "Holy crap my card is a piece of junk! It seems like every other game coming out has something I can't see in it."

:roll: Somehow I think you're the only person who would call their cards "a piece of junk" simply because they can't see soft shadows.

 

[hans030390]

Originally posted by: BouZouki
HL2 vs UT2007, hmmm, well lets see, you think your 6600GT could even run that game with all the goodies on high?

SM3 probably wont even matter there since the 6 series may start to struggle at games like UT2007.

On cards like the GTX, SM3 is a must.

Last gen, wasn't really needed.

I was just saying that UT2007 is using SM3...thats how it gets the great visuals. I was just saying that 2.0 wont be able to look that good (because it originally sounded like i meant it didnt look good at all).

And no, I don't expect my 6600gt to run the game with all the goodies on, but with sm3 it will certainly look better (and run the same) as say a x700 (since they're close). In fact, with SM3, IF they get UE3 looking real good on 2.0, sm3 will look a good bit better and probably not hurt performance (if not improve it).

Besides, the developers of the UE3 engine said "a 6600gt will be able to run this engine fine." Sure, maybe not on 12x10 (or 10x7), but at least it will run it. What's funny is that they could have chosed say, an x800? "it will run fine on an x800" which it might. But its funny that they picked a card with sm3. Perhaps its just me? I dont think it's a coincedence.

We'll see. Rollo, even I'd appreciate it if you considered that most of us cannot afford SLI rigs...i mean, SC:CT runs great on my 6600gt. But you do have a point, none of us know how well the 6 series or x000 series will do in next gen games. I could be right about what i've said, or completely wrong.

 

[imported_Kensai]

Nice info there.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Creig
[

Farcry HDR gives you serious fps drops on the 6 series.

Originally posted by: Rollo
It's still pretty playable with SLI. :roll:

So you need two cards to be "pretty playable".

Nope- Far Cry on one 6800GT is very nice as well:
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzAwLDQ=

 

[fstime]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Creig
[

Farcry HDR gives you serious fps drops on the 6 series.

Originally posted by: Rollo
It's still pretty playable with SLI. :roll:

So you need two cards to be "pretty playable".

Nope- Far Cry on one 6800GT is very nice as well:
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzAwLDQ=

Huh?

That link is a 6800GT running Farcry without HDR.

HDR wont work with AA, they have AA in that becnmark.

I know it is more playable with SLI, i'm talking about single card 6 series setups.

1: Farcry HDR drops your FPS pretty badly on pretty much the entire 6 series. ( Excluding SLI)

2: Even if it gave you smooth frames you loose AA.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: BouZouki

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Creig
[

Farcry HDR gives you serious fps drops on the 6 series.

Originally posted by: Rollo
It's still pretty playable with SLI. :roll:

So you need two cards to be "pretty playable".

Nope- Far Cry on one 6800GT is very nice as well:
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzAwLDQ=

Huh?

That link is a 6800GT running Farcry without HDR.

HDR wont work with AA, they have AA in that becnmark.

I know it is more playable with SLI, i'm talking about single card 6 series setups.

1: Farcry HDR drops your FPS pretty badly on pretty much the entire 6 series. ( Excluding SLI)

2: Even if it was playable, you loose AA.

Ooops- forgot we were talking HDR and Far Cry. Actually SLI doesn't do much for Far Cry HDR for some reason, but it's still better to have it than not on the 6 series.