Seymour Hersh: "We've Been Taken Over by a Cult"

conjur

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Jun 7, 2001
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http://www.democracynow.org/ar...l?sid=05/01/26/1450204
As the Senate Judiciary Committee prepares to vote today on the nomination of Alberto Gonzales for Attorney General, we hear a speech by Pulitzer-prize winning investigative reporter Seymour Hersh on torture from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib to Vietnam.
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Four British citizens have been released without charge from Guantanamo Bay after nearly 3 years in custody. They are suing the US government for tens of millions of dollars in damages.

Meanwhile, on Capitol Hill, the Senate Judiciary Committee is scheduled to vote on the nomination of Alberto Gonzales to be Attorney General. As White House counsel, Gonzales helped lay the legal groundwork that led to the torture of detainees at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.

We turn now to Pulitzer prize-winning investigative journalist Seymour Hersh. Hersh first exposed the Abu Ghraib torture scandal in the New Yorker magazine in April 2004 and is author of "Chain of Command: The Road From 9/11 to Abu Ghraib." He spoke last month at the Steven Wise Free Synagogue in New York.
This should be a good one to hear.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
http://www.democracynow.org/ar...l?sid=05/01/26/1450204
As the Senate Judiciary Committee prepares to vote today on the nomination of Alberto Gonzales for Attorney General, we hear a speech by Pulitzer-prize winning investigative reporter Seymour Hersh on torture from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib to Vietnam.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Four British citizens have been released without charge from Guantanamo Bay after nearly 3 years in custody. They are suing the US government for tens of millions of dollars in damages.

Meanwhile, on Capitol Hill, the Senate Judiciary Committee is scheduled to vote on the nomination of Alberto Gonzales to be Attorney General. As White House counsel, Gonzales helped lay the legal groundwork that led to the torture of detainees at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.

We turn now to Pulitzer prize-winning investigative journalist Seymour Hersh. Hersh first exposed the Abu Ghraib torture scandal in the New Yorker magazine in April 2004 and is author of "Chain of Command: The Road From 9/11 to Abu Ghraib." He spoke last month at the Steven Wise Free Synagogue in New York.
This should be a good one to hear.

If everybody would go to this forum and witnesses the spinning of *'s cult following, they'd put this in the "Duh" category.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Rush transcript:
AMY GOODMAN: We turn now to Seymour Hersh, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter, author of the book, Chain Of Command: The Road From 9-11 to Abu Ghraib. He spoke recently at the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York.

SEYMOUR HERSH: About what's going on in terms of the President is that as virtuous as I feel, you know, at The New Yorker, writing an alternative history more or less of what's been going on in the last three years, George Bush feels just as virtuous in what he is doing. He is absolutely committed -- I don't know whether he thinks he?s doing God's will or what his father didn't do, or whether it's some mandate from -- you know, I just don?t know, but George Bush thinks this is the right thing. He is going to continue doing what he has been doing in Iraq. He's going to expand it, I think, if he can. I think that the number of body bags that come back will make no difference to him. The body bags are rolling in. It makes no difference to him, because he will see it as a price he has to pay to put America where he thinks it should be. So, he's inured in a very strange way to people like me, to the politicians, most of them who are too cowardly anyway to do much. So, the day-to-day anxiety that all of us have, and believe me, though he got 58 million votes, many of people who voted for him weren?t voting for continued warfare, but I think that's what we're going to have.

It's hard to predict the future. And it's sort of silly to, but the question is: How do you go to him? How do you get at him? What can you do to maybe move him off the course that he sees as virtuous and he sees as absolutely appropriate? All of us -- you have to -- I can?t begin to exaggerate how frightening the position is -- we're in right now, because most of you don't understand, because the press has not done a very good job. The Senate Intelligence Committee, the new bill that was just passed, provoked by the 9/11 committee actually, is a little bit of a kabuki dance, I guess is what I want to say, in that what it really does is it consolidates an awful lot of power in the Pentagon -- by statute now. It gives Rumsfeld the right to do an awful lot of things he has been wanting to do, and that is basically manhunting and killing them before they kill us, as Peter said. ?They did it to us. We?ve got to do it to them.? That is the attitude that -- at the very top of our government exists. And so, I'll just tell you a couple of things that drive me nuts. We can -- you know, there's not much more to go on with.

I think there's a way out of it, maybe. I can tell you one thing. Let's all forget this word ?insurgency?. It's one of the most misleading words of all. Insurgency assumes that we had gone to Iraq and won the war and a group of disgruntled people began to operate against us and we then had to do counter-action against them. That would be an insurgency. We are fighting the people we started the war against. We are fighting the Ba'athists plus nationalists. We are fighting the very people that started -- they only choose to fight in different time spans than we want them to, in different places. We took Baghdad easily. It wasn't because be won. We took Baghdad because they pulled back and let us take it and decided to fight a war that had been pre-planned that they're very actively fighting. The frightening thing about it is, we have no intelligence. Maybe it's -- it's -- it is frightening, we have no intelligence about what they're doing. A year-and-a-half ago, we're up against two and three-man teams. We estimated the cells operating against us were two and three people, that we could not penetrate. As of now, we still don't know what's coming next. There are 10, 15-man groups. They have terrific communications. Somebody told me, it's -- somebody in the system, an officer -- and by the way, the good part of it is, more and more people are available to somebody like me.

There's a lot of anxiety inside the -- you know, our professional military and our intelligence people. Many of them respect the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as much as anybody here, and individual freedom. So, they do -- there's a tremendous sense of fear. These are punitive people. One of the ways -- one of the things that you could say is, the amazing thing is we are been taken over basically by a cult, eight or nine neo-conservatives have somehow grabbed the government. Just how and why and how they did it so efficiently, will have to wait for much later historians and better documentation than we have now, but they managed to overcome the bureaucracy and the Congress, and the press, with the greatest of ease. It does say something about how fragile our Democracy is. You do have to wonder what a Democracy is when it comes down to a few men in the Pentagon and a few men in the White House having their way. What they have done is neutralize the C.I.A. because there were people there inside -- the real goal of what Goss has done was not attack the operational people, but the intelligence people. There were people -- serious senior analysts who disagree with the White House, with Cheney, basically, that's what I mean by White House, and Rumsfeld on a lot of issues, as somebody said, the goal in the last month has been to separate the apostates from the true believers. That's what's happening. The real target has been ?diminish the agency.? I'm writing about all of this soon, so I don't want to overdo it, but there's been a tremendous sea change in the government. A concentration of power.

On the other hand, the facts -- there are some facts. We can?t win this war. We can do what he's doing. We can bomb them into the stone ages. Here's the other horrifying, sort of spectacular fact that we don't really appreciate. Since we installed our puppet government, this man, Allawi, who was a member of the Mukabarat, the secret police of Saddam, long before he became a critic, and is basically Saddam-lite. Before we installed him, since we have installed him on June 28, July, August, September, October, November, every month, one thing happened: the number of sorties, bombing raids by one plane, and the number of tonnage dropped has grown exponentially each month. We are systematically bombing that country. There are no embedded journalists at Doha, the Air Force base I think we?re operating out of. No embedded journalists at the aircraft carrier, Harry Truman. That's the aircraft carrier that I think is doing many of the operational fights. There?s no air defense, It's simply a turkey shoot. They come and hit what they want. We know nothing. We don't ask. We're not told. We know nothing about the extent of bombing. So if they're going to carry out an election and if they're going to succeed, bombing is going to be key to it, which means that what happened in Fallujah, essentially Iraq -- some of you remember Vietnam -- Iraq is being turn into a ?free-fire zone? right in front of us. Hit everything, kill everything. I have a friend in the Air Force, a Colonel, who had the awful task of being an urban bombing planner, planning urban bombing, to make urban bombing be as unobtrusive as possible. I think it was three weeks ago today, three weeks ago Sunday after Fallujah I called him at home. I'm one of the people -- I don't call people at work. I call them at home, and he has one of those caller I.D.?s, and he picked up the phone and he said, ?Welcome to Stalingrad.? We know what we're doing. This is deliberate. It's being done. They're not telling us. They're not talking about it.

We have a President that -- and a Secretary of State that, when a trooper -- when a reporter or journalist asked -- actually a trooper, a soldier, asked about lack of equipment, stumbled through an answer and the President then gets up and says, ?Yes, they should all have good equipment and we're going to do it,? as if somehow he wasn't involved in the process. Words mean nothing -- nothing to George Bush. They are just utterances. They have no meaning. Bush can say again and again, ?well, we don't do torture.? We know what happened. We know about Abu Ghraib. We know, we see anecdotally. We all understand in some profound way because so much has come out in the last few weeks, the I.C.R.C. The ACLU put out more papers, this is not an isolated incident what?s happened with the seven kids and the horrible photographs, Lynndie England. That's into the not the issue is. They're fall guys. Of course, they did wrong. But you know, when we send kids to fight, one of the things that we do when we send our children to war is the officers become in loco parentis. That means their job in the military is to protect these kids, not only from getting bullets and being blown up, but also there is nothing as stupid as a 20 or 22-year-old kid with a weapon in a war zone. Protect them from themselves. The spectacle of these people doing those antics night after night, for three and a half months only stopped when one of their own soldiers turned them in tells you all you need to know, how many officers knew. I can just give you a timeline that will tell you all you need to know. Abu Ghraib was reported in January of 2004 this year. In May, I and CBS earlier also wrote an awful lot about what was going on there. At that point, between January and May, our government did nothing. Although Rumsfeld later acknowledged that he was briefed by the middle of January on it and told the President. In those three-and-a-half months before it became public, was there any systematic effort to do anything other than to prosecute seven ?bad seeds?, enlisted kids, reservists from West Virginia and the unit they were in, by the way, Military Police. The answer is, Ha! They were basically a bunch of kids who were taught on traffic control, sent to Iraq, put in charge of a prison. They knew nothing. It doesn't excuse them from doing dumb things. But there is another framework. We're not seeing it. They?ve gotten away with it.

So here's the upside of the horrible story, if there is an upside. I can tell you the upside in a funny way, in an indirect way. It comes from a Washington Post piece this week. A young boy, a Marine, 25-year-old from somewhere in Maryland died. There was a funeral in the Post, a funeral in Washington, and the Post did a little story about it. They quoted -- his name was Hodak. His father was quoted. He had written to a letter in the local newspaper in Southern Virginia. He had said about his son, he wrote a letter just describing what it was like after his son died. He said, ?Today everything seems strange. Laundry is getting done. I walked my dog. I ate breakfast. Somehow I'm still breathing and my heart is still beating. My son lies in a casket half a world away.? There's going to be -- you know, when I did My Lai -- I tell this story a lot. When I did the My Lai story, more than a generation ago, it was 35 years ago, so almost two. When I did My Lai, one of the things that I discovered was that they had -- for some of you, most of you remember, but basically a group of American soldiers -- the analogy is so much like today. Then as now, our soldiers don't see enemies in a battlefield, they just walk on mines or they get shot by snipers, because It's always hidden. There's inevitable anger and rage and you dehumanize the people. We have done that with enormous success in Iraq. They're ?rag-heads?. They're less than human. The casualty count -- as in Sudan, equally as bad. Staggering numbers that we're killing. In any case, you know, it's -- in this case, these -- a group of soldiers in 1968 went into a village. They had been in Vietnam for three months and lost about 10% of their people, maybe 10 or 15 to accidents, killings and bombings, and they ended up -- they thought they would meet the enemy and there were 550 women, children and old men and they executed them all. It took a day. They stopped in the middle and they had lunch. One of the kids who had done a lot of shooting. The Black and Hispanic soldiers, about 40 of them, there were about 90 men in the unit -- the Blacks and Hispanics shot in the air. They wouldn't shoot into the ditch. They collected people in three ditches and just began to shoot them. The Blacks and Hispanics shot up in the air, but the mostly White, lower middle class, the kids who join the Army Reserve today and National Guard looking for extra dollars, those kind of kids did the killing. One of them was a man named Paul Medlow, who did an awful lot of shooting. The next day, there was a moment -- one of the things that everybody remembered, the kids who were there, one of the mothers at the bottom of a ditch had taken a child, a boy, about two, and got him under her stomach in such a way that he wasn't killed. When they were sitting having the K rations -- that?s what they called them -- MRE?s now -- the kid somehow crawled up through the [inaudible] screaming louder and he began -- and Calley, the famous Lieutenant Calley, the Lynndie England of that tragedy, told Medlow: Kill him, ?Plug him,? he said. And Medlow somehow, who had done an awful lot as I say, 200 bullets, couldn't do it so Calley ran up as everybody watched, with his carbine. Officers had a smaller weapon, a rifle, and shot him in the back of the head. The next morning, Medlow stepped on a mine and he had his foot blown off. He was being medevac?d out. As he was being medevac?d out, he cursed and everybody remembered, one of the chilling lines, he said, ?God has punished me, and he's going to punish you, too.?

So a year-and-a-half later, I'm doing this story. And I hear about Medlow. I called his mother up. He lived in New Goshen, Indiana. I said, ?I?m coming to see you". I don?t remember where I was, I think it was Washington State. I flew over there and to get there, you had to go to ? I think Indianapolis and then to Terre Haute, rent a car and drive down into the Southern Indiana, this little farm. It was a scene out of Norman Rockwell's. Some of you remember the Norman Rockwell paintings. It's a chicken farm. The mother is 50, but she looks 80. Gristled, old. Way old ? hard scrabble life, no man around. I said I'm here to see your son, and she said, okay. He's in there. He knows you're coming. Then she said, one of these great -- she said to me, ?I gave them a good boy. And they sent me back a murderer.? So you go on 35 years. I'm doing in The New Yorker, the Abu Ghraib stories. I think I did three in three weeks. If some of you know about The New Yorker, that's unbelievable. But in the middle of all of this, I get a call from a mother in the East coast, Northeast, working class, lower middle class, very religious, Catholic family. She said, I have to talk to you. I go see her. I drive somewhere, fly somewhere, and her story is simply this. She had a daughter that was in the military police unit that was at Abu Ghraib. And the whole unit had come back in March, of -- The sequence is: they get there in the fall of 2003. Their reported after doing their games in the January of 2004. In March she is sent home. Nothing is public yet. The daughter is sent home. The whole unit is sent home. She comes home a different person. She had been married. She was young. She went into the Reserves, I think it was the Army Reserves to get money, not for college or for -- you know, these -- some of these people worked as night clerks in pizza shops in West Virginia. This not -- this is not very sophisticated. She came back and she left her husband. She just had been married before. She left her husband, moved out of the house, moved out of the city, moved out to another home, another apartment in another city and began working a different job. And moved away from everybody. Then over -- as the spring went on, she would go every weekend, this daughter, and every weekend she would go to a tattoo shop and get large black tattoos put on her, over increasingly -- over her body, the back, the arms, the legs, and her mother was frantic. What's going on? Comes Abu Ghraib, and she reads the stories, and she sees it. And she says to her daughter, ?Were you there?? She goes to the apartment. The daughter slams the door. The mother then goes -- the daughter had come home -- before she had gone to Iraq, the mother had given her a portable computer. One of the computers that had a DVD in it, with the idea being that when she was there, she could watch movies, you know, while she was overseas, sort of a -- I hadn't thought about it, a great idea. Turns out a lot of people do it. She had given her a portable computer, and when the kid came back she had returned it, one of the things, and the mother then said I went and looked at the computer. She knows -- she doesn't know about depression. She doesn?t know about Freud. She just said, I was just -- I was just going to clean it up, she said. I had decided to use it again. She wouldn't say anything more why she went to look at it after Abu Ghraib. She opened it up, and sure enough there was a file marked ?Iraq?. She hit the button. Out came 100 photographs. They were photographs that became -- one of them was published. We published one, just one in The New Yorker. It was about an Arab. This is something no mother should see and daughter should see too. It was the Arab man leaning against bars, the prisoner naked, two dogs, two shepherds, remember, on each side of him. The New Yorker published it, a pretty large photograph. What we didn?t publish was the sequence showed the dogs did bite the man -- pretty hard. A lot of blood. So she saw that and she called me, and away we go. There's another story.

For me, it's just another story, but out of this comes a core of -- you know, we all deal in ?macro? in Washington. On the macro, we're hopeless. We're nowhere. The press is nowhere. The congress is nowhere. The military is nowhere. Every four-star General I know is saying, ?Who is going to tell them we have no clothes?? Nobody is going to do it. Everybody is afraid to tell Rumsfeld anything. That's just the way it is. It's a system built on fear. It's not lack of integrity, it's more profound than that. Because there is individual integrity. It's a system that's completely been taken over -- by cultists. Anyway, what's going to happen, I think, as the casualties mount and these stories get around, and the mothers see the cost and the fathers see the cost, as the kids come home. And the wounded ones come back, and there's wards that you will never hear about. That's wards -- you know about the terrible catastrophic injuries, but you don't know about the vegetables. There's ward after ward of vegetables because the brain injuries are so enormous. As you maybe read last week, there was a new study in one of the medical journals that the number of survivors are greater with catastrophic injuries because of their better medical treatment and the better armor they have. So you get more extreme injuries to extremities. We're going to learn more and I think you're going to see, it's going to -- it's -- I'm trying to be optimistic. We're going to see a bottom swelling from inside the ranks. You're beginning to see it. What happened with the soldiers asking those questions, you may see more of that. I'm not suggesting we're going to have mutinies, but I'm going to suggest you're going to see more dissatisfaction being expressed. Maybe that will do it. Another salvation may be the economy. It's going to go very bad, folks. You know, if you have not sold your stocks and bought property in Italy, you better do it quick. And the third thing is Europe -- Europe is not going to tolerate us much longer. The rage there is enormous. I'm talking about our old-fashioned allies. We could see something there, collective action against us. Certainly, nobody -- it's going to be an awful lot of dancing on our graves as the dollar goes bad and everybody stops buying our bonds, our credit -- our -- we're spending $2 billion a day to float the debt, and one of these days, the Japanese and the Russians, everybody is going to start buying oil in Euros instead of dollars. We're going to see enormous panic here. But he could get through that. That will be another year, and the damage he?s going to do between then and now is enormous. We?re going to have some very bad months ahead.

AMY GOODMAN: Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Seymour Hersh. This news just in: 31 Marines have died in a helicopter crash in Iraq.
It's truly Vietnam all over again. But, for some reason, these neocons think they're doing right. It's a cult, all right.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: conjur
Topic Title: Seymour Hersh: "We've Been Taken Over by a Cult"

No doubt about it and a delusional one at that. Then again a cult by definition is delusional.

Listening to Rush this afternoon, was driving the same montra as before the Election that we're in the Roaring 20's again that Happy Days are here again as the Economy is Bustling and Booming, we're winning a Great War in Iraq and Terrorsism and Bush is cleaning up the Clinton's mess.



 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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We're now seeing more and more that Hersh was right to be scared (as he said on The Daily Show right before the election.)
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
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Anybody watch The Daily Show yesterday? They did a hilarious piece on Iran. Talk about a perfect trifecta for Bush, if one were to ever exist. A country with vast oil deposits, located smack inbetween two major US deployment zones.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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I don't have cable anymore and suprnova.org was apparently shutdown so no more daily show viewing for me. :(



Did find this:


THE COMING WARS
What the Pentagon can now do in secret.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050124fa_fact
George W. Bush?s reëlection was not his only victory last fall. The President and his national-security advisers have consolidated control over the military and intelligence communities? strategic analyses and covert operations to a degree unmatched since the rise of the post-Second World War national-security state. Bush has an aggressive and ambitious agenda for using that control?against the mullahs in Iran and against targets in the ongoing war on terrorism?during his second term. The C.I.A. will continue to be downgraded, and the agency will increasingly serve, as one government consultant with close ties to the Pentagon put it, as ?facilitators? of policy emanating from President Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney. This process is well under way.

Despite the deteriorating security situation in Iraq, the Bush Administration has not reconsidered its basic long-range policy goal in the Middle East: the establishment of democracy throughout the region. Bush?s reëlection is regarded within the Administration as evidence of America?s support for his decision to go to war. It has reaffirmed the position of the neoconservatives in the Pentagon?s civilian leadership who advocated the invasion, including Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Secretary of Defense, and Douglas Feith, the Under-secretary for Policy. According to a former high-level intelligence official, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld met with the Joint Chiefs of Staff shortly after the election and told them, in essence, that the naysayers had been heard and the American people did not accept their message. Rumsfeld added that America was committed to staying in Iraq and that there would be no second-guessing.

?This is a war against terrorism, and Iraq is just one campaign. The Bush Administration is looking at this as a huge war zone,? the former high-level intelligence official told me. ?Next, we?re going to have the Iranian campaign. We?ve declared war and the bad guys, wherever they are, are the enemy. This is the last hurrah?we?ve got four years, and want to come out of this saying we won the war on terrorism.?

Bush and Cheney may have set the policy, but it is Rumsfeld who has directed its implementation and has absorbed much of the public criticism when things went wrong?whether it was prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib or lack of sufficient armor plating for G.I.s? vehicles in Iraq. Both Democratic and Republican lawmakers have called for Rumsfeld?s dismissal, and he is not widely admired inside the military. Nonetheless, his reappointment as Defense Secretary was never in doubt.


Rumsfeld will become even more important during the second term. In interviews with past and present intelligence and military officials, I was told that the agenda had been determined before the Presidential election, and much of it would be Rumsfeld?s responsibility. The war on terrorism would be expanded, and effectively placed under the Pentagon?s control. The President has signed a series of findings and executive orders authorizing secret commando groups and other Special Forces units to conduct covert operations against suspected terrorist targets in as many as ten nations in the Middle East and South Asia.

The President?s decision enables Rumsfeld to run the operations off the books?free from legal restrictions imposed on the C.I.A. Under current law, all C.I.A. covert activities overseas must be authorized by a Presidential finding and reported to the Senate and House intelligence committees. (The laws were enacted after a series of scandals in the nineteen-seventies involving C.I.A. domestic spying and attempted assassinations of foreign leaders.) ?The Pentagon doesn?t feel obligated to report any of this to Congress,? the former high-level intelligence official said. ?They don?t even call it ?covert ops??it?s too close to the C.I.A. phrase. In their view, it?s ?black reconnaissance.? They?re not even going to tell the cincs??the regional American military commanders-in-chief. (The Defense Department and the White House did not respond to requests for comment on this story.)

In my interviews, I was repeatedly told that the next strategic target was Iran. ?Everyone is saying, ?You can?t be serious about targeting Iran. Look at Iraq,?? the former intelligence official told me. ?But they say, ?We?ve got some lessons learned?not militarily, but how we did it politically. We?re not going to rely on agency pissants.? No loose ends, and that?s why the C.I.A. is out of there.?



For more than a year, France, Germany, Britain, and other countries in the European Union have seen preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon as a race against time?and against the Bush Administration. They have been negotiating with the Iranian leadership to give up its nuclear-weapons ambitions in exchange for economic aid and trade benefits. Iran has agreed to temporarily halt its enrichment programs, which generate fuel for nuclear power plants but also could produce weapons-grade fissile material. (Iran claims that such facilities are legal under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, or N.P.T., to which it is a signator, and that it has no intention of building a bomb.) But the goal of the current round of talks, which began in December in Brussels, is to persuade Tehran to go further, and dismantle its machinery. Iran insists, in return, that it needs to see some concrete benefits from the Europeans?oil-production technology, heavy-industrial equipment, and perhaps even permission to purchase a fleet of Airbuses. (Iran has been denied access to technology and many goods owing to sanctions.)

The Europeans have been urging the Bush Administration to join in these negotiations. The Administration has refused to do so. The civilian leadership in the Pentagon has argued that no diplomatic progress on the Iranian nuclear threat will take place unless there is a credible threat of military action. ?The neocons say negotiations are a bad deal,? a senior official of the International Atomic Energy Agency (I.A.E.A.) told me. ?And the only thing the Iranians understand is pressure. And that they also need to be whacked.?

The core problem is that Iran has successfully hidden the extent of its nuclear program, and its progress. Many Western intelligence agencies, including those of the United States, believe that Iran is at least three to five years away from a capability to independently produce nuclear warheads?although its work on a missile-delivery system is far more advanced. Iran is also widely believed by Western intelligence agencies and the I.A.E.A. to have serious technical problems with its weapons system, most notably in the production of the hexafluoride gas needed to fabricate nuclear warheads.

A retired senior C.I.A. official, one of many who left the agency recently, told me that he was familiar with the assessments, and confirmed that Iran is known to be having major difficulties in its weapons work. He also acknowledged that the agency?s timetable for a nuclear Iran matches the European estimates?assuming that Iran gets no outside help. ?The big wild card for us is that you don?t know who is capable of filling in the missing parts for them,? the recently retired official said. ?North Korea? Pakistan? We don?t know what parts are missing.?

One Western diplomat told me that the Europeans believed they were in what he called a ?lose-lose position? as long as the United States refuses to get involved. ?France, Germany, and the U.K. cannot succeed alone, and everybody knows it,? the diplomat said. ?If the U.S. stays outside, we don?t have enough leverage, and our effort will collapse.? The alternative would be to go to the Security Council, but any resolution imposing sanctions would likely be vetoed by China or Russia, and then ?the United Nations will be blamed and the Americans will say, ?The only solution is to bomb.??

A European Ambassador noted that President Bush is scheduled to visit Europe in February, and that there has been public talk from the White House about improving the President?s relationship with America?s E.U. allies. In that context, the Ambassador told me, ?I?m puzzled by the fact that the United States is not helping us in our program. How can Washington maintain its stance without seriously taking into account the weapons issue??

The Israeli government is, not surprisingly, skeptical of the European approach. Silvan Shalom, the Foreign Minister, said in an interview last week in Jerusalem,with another New Yorker journalist, ?I don?t like what?s happening. We were encouraged at first when the Europeans got involved. For a long time, they thought it was just Israel?s problem. But then they saw that the [Iranian] missiles themselves were longer range and could reach all of Europe, and they became very concerned. Their attitude has been to use the carrot and the stick?but all we see so far is the carrot.? He added, ?If they can?t comply, Israel cannot live with Iran having a nuclear bomb.?

In a recent essay, Patrick Clawson, an Iran expert who is the deputy director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (and a supporter of the Administration), articulated the view that force, or the threat of it, was a vital bargaining tool with Iran. Clawson wrote that if Europe wanted coöperation with the Bush Administration it ?would do well to remind Iran that the military option remains on the table.? He added that the argument that the European negotiations hinged on Washington looked like ?a preëmptive excuse for the likely breakdown of the E.U.-Iranian talks.? In a subsequent conversation with me, Clawson suggested that, if some kind of military action was inevitable, ?it would be much more in Israel?s interest?and Washington?s?to take covert action. The style of this Administration is to use overwhelming force??shock and awe.? But we get only one bite of the apple.?

There are many military and diplomatic experts who dispute the notion that military action, on whatever scale, is the right approach. Shahram Chubin, an Iranian scholar who is the director of research at the Geneva Centre for Security Policy, told me, ?It?s a fantasy to think that there?s a good American or Israeli military option in Iran.? He went on, ?The Israeli view is that this is an international problem. ?You do it,? they say to the West. ?Otherwise, our Air Force will take care of it.?? In 1981, the Israeli Air Force destroyed Iraq?s Osirak reactor, setting its nuclear program back several years. But the situation now is both more complex and more dangerous, Chubin said. The Osirak bombing ?drove the Iranian nuclear-weapons program underground, to hardened, dispersed sites,? he said. ?You can?t be sure after an attack that you?ll get away with it. The U.S. and Israel would not be certain whether all the sites had been hit, or how quickly they?d be rebuilt. Meanwhile, they?d be waiting for an Iranian counter-attack that could be military or terrorist or diplomatic. Iran has long-range missiles and ties to Hezbollah, which has drones?you can?t begin to think of what they?d do in response.?

Chubin added that Iran could also renounce the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. ?It?s better to have them cheating within the system,? he said. ?Otherwise, as victims, Iran will walk away from the treaty and inspections while the rest of the world watches the N.P.T. unravel before their eyes.?



The Administration has been conducting secret reconnaissance missions inside Iran at least since last summer. Much of the focus is on the accumulation of intelligence and targeting information on Iranian nuclear, chemical, and missile sites, both declared and suspected. The goal is to identify and isolate three dozen, and perhaps more, such targets that could be destroyed by precision strikes and short-term commando raids. ?The civilians in the Pentagon want to go into Iran and destroy as much of the military infrastructure as possible,? the government consultant with close ties to the Pentagon told me.

Some of the missions involve extraordinary coöperation. For example, the former high-level intelligence official told me that an American commando task force has been set up in South Asia and is now working closely with a group of Pakistani scientists and technicians who had dealt with Iranian counterparts. (In 2003, the I.A.E.A. disclosed that Iran had been secretly receiving nuclear technology from Pakistan for more than a decade, and had withheld that information from inspectors.) The American task force, aided by the information from Pakistan, has been penetrating eastern Iran from Afghanistan in a hunt for underground installations. The task-force members, or their locally recruited agents, secreted remote detection devices?known as sniffers?capable of sampling the atmosphere for radioactive emissions and other evidence of nuclear-enrichment programs.

Getting such evidence is a pressing concern for the Bush Administration. The former high-level intelligence official told me, ?They don?t want to make any W.M.D. intelligence mistakes, as in Iraq. The Republicans can?t have two of those. There?s no education in the second kick of a mule.? The official added that the government of Pervez Musharraf, the Pakistani President, has won a high price for its coöperation?American assurance that Pakistan will not have to hand over A. Q. Khan, known as the father of Pakistan?s nuclear bomb, to the I.A.E.A. or to any other international authorities for questioning. For two decades, Khan has been linked to a vast consortium of nuclear-black-market activities. Last year, Musharraf professed to be shocked when Khan, in the face of overwhelming evidence, ?confessed? to his activities. A few days later, Musharraf pardoned him, and so far he has refused to allow the I.A.E.A. or American intelligence to interview him. Khan is now said to be living under house arrest in a villa in Islamabad. ?It?s a deal?a trade-off,? the former high-level intelligence official explained. ??Tell us what you know about Iran and we will let your A. Q. Khan guys go.? It?s the neoconservatives? version of short-term gain at long-term cost. They want to prove that Bush is the anti-terrorism guy who can handle Iran and the nuclear threat, against the long-term goal of eliminating the black market for nuclear proliferation.?

The agreement comes at a time when Musharraf, according to a former high-level Pakistani diplomat, has authorized the expansion of Pakistan?s nuclear-weapons arsenal. ?Pakistan still needs parts and supplies, and needs to buy them in the clandestine market,? the former diplomat said. ?The U.S. has done nothing to stop it.?

There has also been close, and largely unacknowledged, coöperation with Israel. The government consultant with ties to the Pentagon said that the Defense Department civilians, under the leadership of Douglas Feith, have been working with Israeli planners and consultants to develop and refine potential nuclear, chemical-weapons, and missile targets inside Iran. (After Osirak, Iran situated many of its nuclear sites in remote areas of the east, in an attempt to keep them out of striking range of other countries, especially Israel. Distance no longer lends such protection, however: Israel has acquired three submarines capable of launching cruise missiles and has equipped some of its aircraft with additional fuel tanks, putting Israeli F-16I fighters within the range of most Iranian targets.)

?They believe that about three-quarters of the potential targets can be destroyed from the air, and a quarter are too close to population centers, or buried too deep, to be targeted,? the consultant said. Inevitably, he added, some suspicious sites need to be checked out by American or Israeli commando teams?in on-the-ground surveillance?before being targeted.

The Pentagon?s contingency plans for a broader invasion of Iran are also being updated. Strategists at the headquarters of the U.S. Central Command, in Tampa, Florida, have been asked to revise the military?s war plan, providing for a maximum ground and air invasion of Iran. Updating the plan makes sense, whether or not the Administration intends to act, because the geopolitics of the region have changed dramatically in the last three years. Previously, an American invasion force would have had to enter Iran by sea, by way of the Persian Gulf or the Gulf of Oman; now troops could move in on the ground, from Afghanistan or Iraq. Commando units and other assets could be introduced through new bases in the Central Asian republics.

It is possible that some of the American officials who talk about the need to eliminate Iran?s nuclear infrastructure are doing so as part of a propaganda campaign aimed at pressuring Iran to give up its weapons planning. If so, the signals are not always clear. President Bush, who after 9/11 famously depicted Iran as a member of the ?axis of evil,? is now publicly emphasizing the need for diplomacy to run its course. ?We don?t have much leverage with the Iranians right now,? the President said at a news conference late last year. ?Diplomacy must be the first choice, and always the first choice of an administration trying to solve an issue of . . . nuclear armament. And we?ll continue to press on diplomacy.?

In my interviews over the past two months, I was given a much harsher view. The hawks in the Administration believe that it will soon become clear that the Europeans? negotiated approach cannot succeed, and that at that time the Administration will act. ?We?re not dealing with a set of National Security Council option papers here,? the former high-level intelligence official told me. ?They?ve already passed that wicket. It?s not if we?re going to do anything against Iran. They?re doing it.?

The immediate goals of the attacks would be to destroy, or at least temporarily derail, Iran?s ability to go nuclear. But there are other, equally purposeful, motives at work. The government consultant told me that the hawks in the Pentagon, in private discussions, have been urging a limited attack on Iran because they believe it could lead to a toppling of the religious leadership. ?Within the soul of Iran there is a struggle between secular nationalists and reformers, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, the fundamentalist Islamic movement,? the consultant told me. ?The minute the aura of invincibility which the mullahs enjoy is shattered, and with it the ability to hoodwink the West, the Iranian regime will collapse??like the former Communist regimes in Romania, East Germany, and the Soviet Union. Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz share that belief, he said.

?The idea that an American attack on Iran?s nuclear facilities would produce a popular uprising is extremely illinformed,? said Flynt Leverett, a Middle East scholar who worked on the National Security Council in the Bush Administration. ?You have to understand that the nuclear ambition in Iran is supported across the political spectrum, and Iranians will perceive attacks on these sites as attacks on their ambitions to be a major regional player and a modern nation that?s technologically sophisticated.? Leverett, who is now a senior fellow at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy, at the Brookings Institution, warned that an American attack, if it takes place, ?will produce an Iranian backlash against the United States and a rallying around the regime.?



Rumsfeld planned and lobbied for more than two years before getting Presidential authority, in a series of findings and executive orders, to use military commandos for covert operations. One of his first steps was bureaucratic: to shift control of an undercover unit, known then as the Gray Fox (it has recently been given a new code name), from the Army to the Special Operations Command (socom), in Tampa. Gray Fox was formally assigned to socom in July, 2002, at the instigation of Rumsfeld?s office, which meant that the undercover unit would have a single commander for administration and operational deployment. Then, last fall, Rumsfeld?s ability to deploy the commandos expanded. According to a Pentagon consultant, an Execute Order on the Global War on Terrorism (referred to throughout the government as gwot) was issued at Rumsfeld?s direction. The order specifically authorized the military ?to find and finish? terrorist targets, the consultant said. It included a target list that cited Al Qaeda network members, Al Qaeda senior leadership, and other high-value targets. The consultant said that the order had been cleared throughout the national-security bureaucracy in Washington.

In late November, 2004, the Times reported that Bush had set up an interagency group to study whether it ?would best serve the nation? to give the Pentagon complete control over the C.I.A.?s own élite paramilitary unit, which has operated covertly in trouble spots around the world for decades. The panel?s conclusions, due in February, are foregone, in the view of many former C.I.A. officers. ?It seems like it?s going to happen,? Howard Hart, who was chief of the C.I.A.?s Paramilitary Operations Division before retiring in 1991, told me.

There was other evidence of Pentagon encroachment. Two former C.I.A. clandestine officers, Vince Cannistraro and Philip Giraldi, who publish Intelligence Brief, a newsletter for their business clients, reported last month on the existence of a broad counter-terrorism Presidential finding that permitted the Pentagon ?to operate unilaterally in a number of countries where there is a perception of a clear and evident terrorist threat. . . . A number of the countries are friendly to the U.S. and are major trading partners. Most have been cooperating in the war on terrorism.? The two former officers listed some of the countries?Algeria, Sudan, Yemen, Syria, and Malaysia. (I was subsequently told by the former high-level intelligence official that Tunisia is also on the list.)

Giraldi, who served three years in military intelligence before joining the C.I.A., said that he was troubled by the military?s expanded covert assignment. ?I don?t think they can handle the cover,? he told me. ?They?ve got to have a different mind-set. They?ve got to handle new roles and get into foreign cultures and learn how other people think. If you?re going into a village and shooting people, it doesn?t matter,? Giraldi added. ?But if you?re running operations that involve finesse and sensitivity, the military can?t do it. Which is why these kind of operations were always run out of the agency.? I was told that many Special Operations officers also have serious misgivings.

Rumsfeld and two of his key deputies, Stephen Cambone, the Under-secretary of Defense for Intelligence, and Army Lieutenant General William G. (Jerry) Boykin, will be part of the chain of command for the new commando operations. Relevant members of the House and Senate intelligence committees have been briefed on the Defense Department?s expanded role in covert affairs, a Pentagon adviser assured me, but he did not know how extensive the briefings had been.

?I?m conflicted about the idea of operating without congressional oversight,? the Pentagon adviser said. ?But I?ve been told that there will be oversight down to the specific operation.? A second Pentagon adviser agreed, with a significant caveat. ?There are reporting requirements,? he said. ?But to execute the finding we don?t have to go back and say, ?We?re going here and there.? No nitty-gritty detail and no micromanagement.?

The legal questions about the Pentagon?s right to conduct covert operations without informing Congress have not been resolved. ?It?s a very, very gray area,? said Jeffrey H. Smith, a West Point graduate who served as the C.I.A.?s general counsel in the mid-nineteen-nineties. ?Congress believes it voted to include all such covert activities carried out by the armed forces. The military says, ?No, the things we?re doing are not intelligence actions under the statute but necessary military steps authorized by the President, as Commander-in-Chief, to ?prepare the battlefield.??? Referring to his days at the C.I.A., Smith added, ?We were always careful not to use the armed forces in a covert action without a Presidential finding. The Bush Administration has taken a much more aggressive stance.?

In his conversation with me, Smith emphasized that he was unaware of the military?s current plans for expanding covert action. But he said, ?Congress has always worried that the Pentagon is going to get us involved in some military misadventure that nobody knows about.?

Under Rumsfeld?s new approach, I was told, U.S. military operatives would be permitted to pose abroad as corrupt foreign businessmen seeking to buy contraband items that could be used in nuclear-weapons systems. In some cases, according to the Pentagon advisers, local citizens could be recruited and asked to join up with guerrillas or terrorists. This could potentially involve organizing and carrying out combat operations, or even terrorist activities. Some operations will likely take place in nations in which there is an American diplomatic mission, with an Ambassador and a C.I.A. station chief, the Pentagon consultant said. The Ambassador and the station chief would not necessarily have a need to know, under the Pentagon?s current interpretation of its reporting requirement.

The new rules will enable the Special Forces community to set up what it calls ?action teams? in the target countries overseas which can be used to find and eliminate terrorist organizations. ?Do you remember the right-wing execution squads in El Salvador?? the former high-level intelligence official asked me, referring to the military-led gangs that committed atrocities in the early nineteen-eighties. ?We founded them and we financed them,? he said. ?The objective now is to recruit locals in any area we want. And we aren?t going to tell Congress about it.? A former military officer, who has knowledge of the Pentagon?s commando capabilities, said, ?We?re going to be riding with the bad boys.?

One of the rationales for such tactics was spelled out in a series of articles by John Arquilla, a professor of defense analysis at the Naval Postgraduate School, in Monterey, California, and a consultant on terrorism for the rand corporation. ?It takes a network to fight a network,? Arquilla wrote in a recent article in the San Francisco Chronicle:

When conventional military operations and bombing failed to defeat the Mau Mau insurgency in Kenya in the 1950s, the British formed teams of friendly Kikuyu tribesmen who went about pretending to be terrorists. These ?pseudo gangs,? as they were called, swiftly threw the Mau Mau on the defensive, either by befriending and then ambushing bands of fighters or by guiding bombers to the terrorists? camps. What worked in Kenya a half-century ago has a wonderful chance of undermining trust and recruitment among today?s terror networks. Forming new pseudo gangs should not be difficult.


?If a confused young man from Marin County can join up with Al Qaeda,? Arquilla wrote, referring to John Walker Lindh, the twenty-year-old Californian who was seized in Afghanistan, ?think what professional operatives might do.?

A few pilot covert operations were conducted last year, one Pentagon adviser told me, and a terrorist cell in Algeria was ?rolled up? with American help. The adviser was referring, apparently, to the capture of Ammari Saifi, known as Abderrezak le Para, the head of a North African terrorist network affiliated with Al Qaeda. But at the end of the year there was no agreement within the Defense Department about the rules of engagement. ?The issue is approval for the final authority,? the former high-level intelligence official said. ?Who gets to say ?Get this? or ?Do this???

A retired four-star general said, ?The basic concept has always been solid, but how do you insure that the people doing it operate within the concept of the law? This is pushing the edge of the envelope.? The general added, ?It?s the oversight. And you?re not going to get Warner??John Warner, of Virginia, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee??and those guys to exercise oversight. This whole thing goes to the Fourth Deck.? He was referring to the floor in the Pentagon where Rumsfeld and Cambone have their offices.

?It?s a finesse to give power to Rumsfeld?giving him the right to act swiftly, decisively, and lethally,? the first Pentagon adviser told me. ?It?s a global free-fire zone.?



The Pentagon has tried to work around the limits on covert activities before. In the early nineteen-eighties, a covert Army unit was set up and authorized to operate overseas with minimal oversight. The results were disastrous. The Special Operations program was initially known as Intelligence Support Activity, or I.S.A., and was administered from a base near Washington (as was, later, Gray Fox). It was established soon after the failed rescue, in April, 1980, of the American hostages in Iran, who were being held by revolutionary students after the Islamic overthrow of the Shah?s regime. At first, the unit was kept secret from many of the senior generals and civilian leaders in the Pentagon, as well as from many members of Congress. It was eventually deployed in the Reagan Administration?s war against the Sandinista government, in Nicaragua. It was heavily committed to supporting the Contras. By the mid-eighties, however, the I.S.A.?s operations had been curtailed, and several of its senior officers were courtmartialled following a series of financial scandals, some involving arms deals. The affair was known as ?the Yellow Fruit scandal,? after the code name given to one of the I.S.A.?s cover organizations?and in many ways the group?s procedures laid the groundwork for the Iran-Contra scandal.

Despite the controversy surrounding Yellow Fruit, the I.S.A. was kept intact as an undercover unit by the Army. ?But we put so many restrictions on it,? the second Pentagon adviser said. ?In I.S.A., if you wanted to travel fifty miles you had to get a special order. And there were certain areas, such as Lebanon, where they could not go.? The adviser acknowledged that the current operations are similar to those two decades earlier, with similar risks?and, as he saw it, similar reasons for taking the risks. ?What drove them then, in terms of Yellow Fruit, was that they had no intelligence on Iran,? the adviser told me. ?They had no knowledge of Tehran and no people on the ground who could prepare the battle space.?

Rumsfeld?s decision to revive this approach stemmed, once again, from a failure of intelligence in the Middle East, the adviser said. The Administration believed that the C.I.A. was unable, or unwilling, to provide the military with the information it needed to effectively challenge stateless terrorism. ?One of the big challenges was that we didn?t have Humint??human intelligence??collection capabilities in areas where terrorists existed,? the adviser told me. ?Because the C.I.A. claimed to have such a hold on Humint, the way to get around them, rather than take them on, was to claim that the agency didn?t do Humint to support Special Forces operations overseas. The C.I.A. fought it.? Referring to Rumsfeld?s new authority for covert operations, the first Pentagon adviser told me, ?It?s not empowering military intelligence. It?s emasculating the C.I.A.?

A former senior C.I.A. officer depicted the agency?s eclipse as predictable. ?For years, the agency bent over backward to integrate and coördinate with the Pentagon,? the former officer said. ?We just caved and caved and got what we deserved. It is a fact of life today that the Pentagon is a five-hundred-pound gorilla and the C.I.A. director is a chimpanzee.?

There was pressure from the White House, too. A former C.I.A. clandestine-services officer told me that, in the months after the resignation of the agency?s director George Tenet, in June, 2004, the White House began ?coming down critically? on analysts in the C.I.A.?s Directorate of Intelligence (D.I.) and demanded ?to see more support for the Administration?s political position.? Porter Goss, Tenet?s successor, engaged in what the recently retired C.I.A. official described as a ?political purge? in the D.I. Among the targets were a few senior analysts who were known to write dissenting papers that had been forwarded to the White House. The recently retired C.I.A. official said, ?The White House carefully reviewed the political analyses of the D.I. so they could sort out the apostates from the true believers.? Some senior analysts in the D.I. have turned in their resignations?quietly, and without revealing the extent of the disarray.



The White House solidified its control over intelligence last month, when it forced last-minute changes in the intelligence-reform bill. The legislation, based substantially on recommendations of the 9/11 Commission, originally gave broad powers, including authority over intelligence spending, to a new national-intelligence director. (The Pentagon controls roughly eighty per cent of the intelligence budget.) A reform bill passed in the Senate by a vote of 96-2. Before the House voted, however, Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld balked. The White House publicly supported the legislation, but House Speaker Dennis Hastert refused to bring a House version of the bill to the floor for a vote?ostensibly in defiance of the President, though it was widely understood in Congress that Hastert had been delegated to stall the bill. After intense White House and Pentagon lobbying, the legislation was rewritten. The bill that Congress approved sharply reduced the new director?s power, in the name of permitting the Secretary of Defense to maintain his ?statutory responsibilities.? Fred Kaplan, in the online magazine Slate, described the real issues behind Hastert?s action, quoting a congressional aide who expressed amazement as White House lobbyists bashed the Senate bill and came up ?with all sorts of ludicrous reasons why it was unacceptable.?

?Rummy?s plan was to get a compromise in the bill in which the Pentagon keeps its marbles and the C.I.A. loses theirs,? the former high-level intelligence official told me. ?Then all the pieces of the puzzle fall in place. He gets authority for covert action that is not attributable, the ability to directly task national-intelligence assets??including the many intelligence satellites that constantly orbit the world.

?Rumsfeld will no longer have to refer anything through the government?s intelligence wringer,? the former official went on. ?The intelligence system was designed to put competing agencies in competition. What?s missing will be the dynamic tension that insures everyone?s priorities?in the C.I.A., the D.O.D., the F.B.I., and even the Department of Homeland Security?are discussed. The most insidious implication of the new system is that Rumsfeld no longer has to tell people what he?s doing so they can ask, ?Why are you doing this?? or ?What are your priorities?? Now he can keep all of the mattress mice out of it.?
Guess that explains why Rumsfeld hasn't been sh*t-canned after the Abu Ghraib foul-up and after having been caught flat-footed by the [predicted by multiple agencies] insurgency.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
64
91
Originally posted by: conjur
We're now seeing more and more that Hersh was right to be scared (as he said on The Daily Show right before the election.)

Dude, Seymour Hersh is ALWAYS right. Whenever he breaks a story the rest of the journalistic commnunity comes and says "Hey Hersh was right all along." He is by far the best Journalist this country has seen in the last 40 years. He broke the My Lai Massacre, the Cambodian Bombing AND Abu Ghraib. He's been publishing stories like these, that pussy ass journalists never touch for over 35 years.

Anyone at all interested in the Truth should listen to that clip.

I found this pretty chilling:

I'm doing in The New Yorker, the Abu Ghraib stories. I think I did three in three weeks. If some of you know about The New Yorker, that's unbelievable. But in the middle of all of this, I get a call from a mother in the East coast, Northeast, working class, lower middle class, very religious, Catholic family. She said, I have to talk to you. I go see her. I drive somewhere, fly somewhere, and her story is simply this. She had a daughter that was in the military police unit that was at Abu Ghraib. And the whole unit had come back in March, of -- The sequence is: they get there in the fall of 2003. Their reported after doing their games in the January of 2004. In March she is sent home. Nothing is public yet. The daughter is sent home. The whole unit is sent home. She comes home a different person. She had been married. She was young. She went into the Reserves, I think it was the Army Reserves to get money, not for college or for -- you know, these -- some of these people worked as night clerks in pizza shops in West Virginia. This not -- this is not very sophisticated. She came back and she left her husband. She just had been married before. She left her husband, moved out of the house, moved out of the city, moved out to another home, another apartment in another city and began working a different job. And moved away from everybody. Then over -- as the spring went on, she would go every weekend, this daughter, and every weekend she would go to a tattoo shop and get large black tattoos put on her, over increasingly -- over her body, the back, the arms, the legs, and her mother was frantic. What's going on? Comes Abu Ghraib, and she reads the stories, and she sees it. And she says to her daughter, ?Were you there?? She goes to the apartment. The daughter slams the door. The mother then goes -- the daughter had come home -- before she had gone to Iraq, the mother had given her a portable computer. One of the computers that had a DVD in it, with the idea being that when she was there, she could watch movies, you know, while she was overseas, sort of a -- I hadn't thought about it, a great idea. Turns out a lot of people do it. She had given her a portable computer, and when the kid came back she had returned it, one of the things, and the mother then said I went and looked at the computer. She knows -- she doesn't know about depression. She doesn?t know about Freud. She just said, I was just -- I was just going to clean it up, she said. I had decided to use it again. She wouldn't say anything more why she went to look at it after Abu Ghraib. She opened it up, and sure enough there was a file marked ?Iraq?. She hit the button. Out came 100 photographs. They were photographs that became -- one of them was published. We published one, just one in The New Yorker. It was about an Arab. This is something no mother should see and daughter should see too. It was the Arab man leaning against bars, the prisoner naked, two dogs, two shepherds, remember, on each side of him. The New Yorker published it, a pretty large photograph. What we didn?t publish was the sequence showed the dogs did bite the man -- pretty hard. A lot of blood. So she saw that and she called me, and away we go. There's another story.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
64
91
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: preslove
Originally posted by: raildogg
Hersh is part of the vast left wing conspiracy.

And you believe Michael Savage, moron.

I believe what I want to believe, jackass. And no, you are wrong.

LOL. Yes you believe the words of a liar, good for you. I believe the words of a pulitzer prize winner whose work is backed by mounds of historical evidence (and dead Vietnamese).
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: preslove
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: preslove
Originally posted by: raildogg
Hersh is part of the vast left wing conspiracy.

And you believe Michael Savage, moron.

I believe what I want to believe, jackass. And no, you are wrong.

LOL. Yes you believe the words of a liar, good for you. I believe the words of a pulitzer prize winner whose work is backed by mounds of historical evidence (and dead Vietnamese).

Where did you get that from? Your ass?
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
64
91
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: preslove
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: preslove
Originally posted by: raildogg
Hersh is part of the vast left wing conspiracy.

And you believe Michael Savage, moron.

I believe what I want to believe, jackass. And no, you are wrong.

LOL. Yes you believe the words of a liar, good for you. I believe the words of a pulitzer prize winner whose work is backed by mounds of historical evidence (and dead Vietnamese).

Where did you get that from? Your ass?

A little bit about Hersh

Savage is a pig, and only a moron could listen to him:
From the August 3 nationally syndicated broadcast of Savage Nation:

[T]he San Francisco Human Rights Commission, hold your nose-- When you hear the words "Human Rights Commission," you know what you're dealing with. Think of the worst people in America, they're the ones who go on to human rights commissions. They're neo-fascists in the guise of human rights activists. They wanna tell you what you can think, what you can't think. Who you can listen to, who you can read -- they're stinkers. They're communist or Nazis or both. ... So they're attacking the San Francisco Police Officer's Association, because the San Francisco Police Officer's Association received free tickets to my event, Michael Savage Uncensored. ... Now I'm extremely popular, but the San Francisco Human Rights Commission thinks that their Nazi background gives them an opportunity to say that I'm a hateful person because they don't like what I say about homosexuals. ... When you hear "human rights," think gays. When you hear "human rights," think only one thing: someone who wants to rape your son. And you'll get it just right. OK, you got it, right? When you hear "human rights," think only someone who wants to molest your son, and send you to jail if you defend him. Write that down, make a note of it. So anyway, let's get back to the serious stuff here.

I'm gonna to go out on a limb here and say that some of the things in that quote are untrue. The man flagrantly lies for a living and people eat it up because it's entertaining.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: robertcloud
Originally posted by: raildogg
Hersh is part of the vast left wing conspiracy.
I hope you are being sarcastic. Are you? Please say you are.
He's just being an idiot. Hersh is very well-respected.
 

Gravity

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2003
5,685
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Anybody watch The Daily Show yesterday? They did a hilarious piece on Iran. Talk about a perfect trifecta for Bush, if one were to ever exist. A country with vast oil deposits, located smack inbetween two major US deployment zones.

Gee, it seems that if oil were the target, we'd have a lower fuel price about now, since the unfriendly regime has been disposed of.

 

Gravity

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2003
5,685
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: conjur
Topic Title: Seymour Hersh: "We've Been Taken Over by a Cult"

No doubt about it and a delusional one at that. Then again a cult by definition is delusional.

Listening to Rush this afternoon, was driving the same montra as before the Election that we're in the Roaring 20's again that Happy Days are here again as the Economy is Bustling and Booming, we're winning a Great War in Iraq and Terrorsism and Bush is cleaning up the Clinton's mess.

Dave, even I don't believe everything Rush says. I'm thinking that existing home sales might be elevated due to the chronic and increasing rate of divorce. Divorce makes homes sell. Interesting thought eH?
 

sierrita

Senior member
Mar 24, 2002
929
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Originally posted by: raildogg
Hersh is part of the vast left wing conspiracy.





If you can't contribute anything intelligent to this forum, you really need to stop posting.



:roll:
 

beer

Lifer
Jun 27, 2000
11,169
1
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whoa, does anyone notice the dates in this thread (i.e, when each msg was posted) are all REALLY random?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
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This transcript of a show, it is not an article reads like the babbling of person on drugs. I really am tired of journalist making stories on Iraq who dont even know what is really happening in Iraq. Consequently we dont know what is happening in Iraq either.

Brokaw also had a report about Iraq that I saw where he also talked about the insurgency being some kind of a myth. Almost all people being killed are Sadam's Faithful. They kind of faded into the woodwork during the war. We are slowly killing them off. The commander he interviewed beleives we are wiping them out slowly but surely.

Iraq is using up a lot of our resources, but I hope and pray that the spending is not in vain. I have hope for the people of Iraq. I beleive Iraq will become a great power and a symbol for hope in the Middle East.
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
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Hersh is a crazy conspiracy theorist.

Why do people buy his crap.



"This transcript of a show, it is not an article reads like the babbling of person on drugs. I really am tired of journalist making stories on Iraq who dont even know what is really happening in Iraq. Consequently we dont know what is happening in Iraq either."

Do you know that not one major network has sent a reporter outside of the Green Zone for over a year. They sit back, wait for terrorist couriers to bring them the daily briefing - recite it as news from their tenth floor suites, and then go back to the canteen. Sadly, they take the terrorist reports more seriously than those of the military, or Iraqi civilian briefings.

No wonder no good news is reported, there is no one hand delivering it to them. Good deeds go unrewarded as long as the anti-American liberal media is over there.