Severed fingers of 5 hostages delivered to U.S. officials in Iraq

[Sinsear]

Story Here

BAGHDAD _U.S. authorities in Baghdad have received five severed fingers belonging to four Americans and an Austrian who were taken hostage more than a year ago in Iraq , U.S. officials said Wednesday.

The FBI is investigating the grisly development, and the families of the five kidnapped contractors have been notified, American officials said on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to discuss the case publicly.

Authorities confirmed that the fingers belonged to hostages Jonathan Cote , of Gainesville, Fla. ; Joshua Munns , of Redding, Calif. ; Paul Johnson Reuben , of Buffalo, Minn. ; Bert Nussbaumer of Vienna, Austria ; and Ronald J. Withrow , an American who was kidnapped separately from the others.

No information was available on when or how the fingers were delivered to U.S. authorities. Some relatives of the missing men said that they'd heard weeks ago that the DNA of the hostages had been obtained, but they'd been given no details.

The first four men were security contractors with Kuwait -based Crescent Security and were captured in a brazen ambush of their 43-truck supply convoy in the southern Iraqi town of Safwan, near the Kuwaiti border, on Nov. 16, 2006 .

There was no word on a fifth contractor who was seized with them, John Young , of Kansas City . Contrary to Austrian news reports, none of the fingers belonged to him, authorities said.

"The government is in touch with us, but they said nothing has been verified yet," said Sharon DeBrabander , Young's mother. "I certainly don't understand why my son's wasn't found. What does that mean?"

Withrow, a computer specialist who worked for JPI Worldwide, was kidnapped separately at a phony checkpoint near the southern Iraqi city of Basra on Jan. 5, 2007 , according to news reports. Very little information is publicly available about his abduction; the bodies of his Iraqi translator and driver were discovered the next day. His employer is a Las Vegas -based company that provides Internet and technological support to remote or war-torn areas around the globe, according to the company's Web site.

The Austrian weekly magazine News first reported the delivery of the five fingers in Wednesday's edition, citing unnamed authorities working on the case.

Austrian officials said at a news conference in Vienna that U.S. officials had provided information about "fingerprints and DNA traces that were positively matched to Nussbaumer," the Austrian hostage. They didn't confirm that the sample was a severed finger.

Relatives of the American hostages said they received phone calls from U.S. authorities early Wednesday, though initially they were told only that fingerprints or DNA had been obtained. Later, at least one father said he'd been notified that his son's finger had been delivered by the hostage-takers, but there still was confusion among the relatives about the development.

"All we have right now is prayers," said Mark Munns , the father of former Marine Joshua Munns , 25, who has spent his past two birthdays in captivity. "I don't know how to make head or tails of what's going on. Are they still alive? A whole bunch of stuff goes through your head."

State Department representatives check in with the families in a telephone conference call every Monday, though several relatives have complained that they're being kept in the dark about the investigation. The FBI has told them that the information is classified to preserve the integrity of the investigation? little solace for families who've gone 18 months with scant news.

"I know we're in a war on terror, but to not tell the families anything and let us sit out here for 18 months just isn't right," Mark Munns said.

The Crescent contractors appeared in two hostage videos released in December 2006 and January 2007 in which they pleaded for the United States to withdraw troops from Iraq and to free all Iraqi prisoners. In the videos, they appeared in good condition and said that they were being treated well.

No financial demand has been made public, and it's unclear what group is holding the men. All of the hostages were seized in southern Iraq , where powerful Shiite Muslim militias operate with relative freedom.

"I'm hoping this may be a sign that the hostage-takers sent the fingers to prove they have the guys and may want to deal. I'm trying to look at the positive of this," said Mark Koscielski , a Minnesotan who is in close contact with the families of the hostages and maintains a Web site, www.Save5.net, dedicated to the abducted men. One of the hostages, Reuben, is a former Minneapolis police officer.

Still unsure of these personnel are alive or dead at this point.

Severing fingers; serves as a reminder that the enemy is real, and willing to go to extremes, yet we decry some waterboarding.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Still unsure of these personnel are alive or dead at this point.

Severing fingers; serves as a reminder that the enemy is real, and willing to go to extremes, yet we decry some waterboarding.

That's because waterboarding is such a terrible physical act that renders the bearer terrible lasting pain and disfigurement that it shouldn't ever be done by anyone.

Also because the ones who have a mindset that chopping fingers off civilians will obviously break and tell you everything you want to know when they're sitting in the air conditioned interrogation cell and know you can't do sh1t to them.

You should know that...

Chuck

 

[IronWing]

What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Still unsure of these personnel are alive or dead at this point.

Severing fingers; serves as a reminder that the enemy is real, and willing to go to extremes, yet we decry some waterboarding.

That's because waterboarding is such a terrible physical act that renders the bearer terrible lasting pain and disfigurement that it shouldn't ever be done by anyone.

Also because the ones who have a mindset that chopping fingers off civilians will obviously break and tell you everything you want to know when they're sitting in the air conditioned interrogation cell and know you can't do sh1t to them.

You should know that...

Chuck

I'm still amazed that people seriously suggest we should model our behavior on what the terrorists do...just be "better" enough to still maintain the moral high ground, and we're OK. But somehow I just can't get behind the concept of morals being a relative concept.

 

[umbrella39]

And in a related story, none of the fingers belong to any of the keyboard commandos posting here.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

5 kidnapped people who had their fingers cut off working/serving in Iraq and all you're able to do is go off in some diatribe of nonsensical Bush-hate.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

5 kidnapped people who had their fingers cut off working/serving in Iraq and all you're able to do is go off in some diatribe of nonsensical Bush-hate.

They chose to go to Iraq to join a war against people who had done nothing against them. What did they expect? While their predicament is horrible, these are not innocents caught up in circumstance.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were civilian men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what the fvck was their crime exactly? Driving while American!?

you're one twisted SOB...

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

5 kidnapped people who had their fingers cut off working/serving in Iraq and all you're able to do is go off in some diatribe of nonsensical Bush-hate.

They chose to go to Iraq to join a war against people who had done nothing against them. What did they expect? While their predicament is horrible, these are not innocents caught up in circumstance.

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what was their crime exactly?!

you're one twisted SOB...

What he said.

Your BDS is absolutely crazy. You understand that everyone in the military volunteered for their job and many joined after 9/11 knowing damn well what was going to happen. They are innocents and they have not committed war crimes. Their captors, however, have.

You are sick.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were civilian men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what the fvck was their crime exactly? Driving while American!?

you're one twisted SOB...

Where did you get "civilian" from? The story says:

"The first four men were security contractors with Kuwait -based Crescent Security and were captured in a brazen ambush of their 43-truck supply convoy in the southern Iraqi town of Safwan, near the Kuwaiti border, on Nov. 16, 2006. "

They were mercenaries.

 

[noto12ious]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were civilian men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what the fvck was their crime exactly? Driving while American!?

you're one twisted SOB...

driving while illegally occupating their country...from a war based on a myriad of intentional lies.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

5 kidnapped people who had their fingers cut off working/serving in Iraq and all you're able to do is go off in some diatribe of nonsensical Bush-hate.

They chose to go to Iraq to join a war against people who had done nothing against them. What did they expect? While their predicament is horrible, these are not innocents caught up in circumstance.

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what was their crime exactly?!

you're one twisted SOB...

What he said.

Your BDS is absolutely crazy. You understand that everyone in the military volunteered for their job and many joined after 9/11 knowing damn well what was going to happen. They are innocents and they have not committed war crimes. Their captors, however, have.

You are sick.

Read the Nuremberg Principles, and get back to me on that. Actually read them, don't suppose what they might say is a war crime but what they actually say is a war crime (crime against the peace in this case). When doing so, keep in mind that the language in the principles is there at the insistence of the U.S.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: noto12ious

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were civilian men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what the fvck was their crime exactly? Driving while American!?

you're one twisted SOB...

driving while illegally occupating their country...from a war based on a myriad of intentional lies.

'occupating'?

These were civilians escorting harmless civilian supplies you dolt! Tell me again, wtf was their war crime?!

Are you retarded, drunk, or both? I'm serious...

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were civilian men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what the fvck was their crime exactly? Driving while American!?

you're one twisted SOB...

Where did you get "civilian" from? The story says:

"The first four men were security contractors with Kuwait -based Crescent Security and were captured in a brazen ambush of their 43-truck supply convoy in the southern Iraqi town of Safwan, near the Kuwaiti border, on Nov. 16, 2006. "

They were mercenaries.

Reading comprehension FTW

Authorities confirmed that the fingers belonged to hostages Jonathan Cote , of Gainesville, Fla. ; Joshua Munns , of Redding, Calif. ; Paul Johnson Reuben , of Buffalo, Minn. ; Bert Nussbaumer of Vienna, Austria ; and Ronald J. Withrow , an American who was kidnapped separately from the others.

Last I checked those locations are in the US of A. It doesn't matter who they are or work for, they are serving our country and were taken captive. They are prisoners of war and are obviously being tortured and the only thing you can do you sick fuck is say it's their own damn fault.

Originally posted by: noto12ious

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were civilian men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what the fvck was their crime exactly? Driving while American!?

you're one twisted SOB...

driving while illegally occupating their country...from a war based on a myriad of intentional lies.

We are not illegally occupying their country. More than likely the captors are from Saudi Arabia anyway, not Iraq. Either way, we are not in there illegally until the new Iraqi ELECTED government tells us to GTFO. Until then you should STFU.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: ironwing
Read the Nuremberg Principles, and get back to me on that. Actually read them, don't suppose what they might say is a war crime but what they actually say is a war crime (crime against the peace in this case). When doing so, keep in mind that the language in the principles is there at the insistence of the U.S.

So tell me what their war crime is if you are so sure they were committing one. You aren't going to be proven right by telling me to read the definition. If it's such a brazen war crime you should be able to pretty easily point it out.

 

[magomago]

and explain to me OP how this deals with religion rather than the fact that Iraq is one of the most unstable regions in the world at the moment?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: magomago
and explain to me OP how this deals with religion rather than the fact that Iraq is one of the most unstable regions in the world at the moment?

Well I think that would be obvious. It wasn't a bunch of wackjobs who severed those fingers, it was "Islam".

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Last I checked those locations are in the US of A. It doesn't matter who they are or work for, they are serving our country and were taken captive. They are prisoners of war and are obviously being tortured and the only thing you can do you sick fuck is say it's their own damn fault.

Correction: They are hostages, not prisoners of war; and they were kidnapped, not captured.

They are innocent United States civilians who were trying to earn a living by escorting civilian supply caravans around the war-torn countryside. They were NOT serving the United States at the time of their kidnapping. The supplies in their trucks were not even destined for US or Coalition troops. The trucks contained building supplies and various perishables.

The only crimes here are the kidnapping and torture of innocent US and Austrian citizens by persons unknown.

I think ironwing and notorious are just a little bit... slow.

 

[noto12ious]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: noto12ious

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were civilian men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what the fvck was their crime exactly? Driving while American!?

you're one twisted SOB...

driving while illegally occupating their country...from a war based on a myriad of intentional lies.

'occupating'?

These were civilians escorting harmless civilian supplies you dolt! Tell me again, wtf was their war crime?!

Are you retarded, drunk, or both? I'm serious...

"The first four men were security contractors with Kuwait -based Crescent Security and were captured in a brazen ambush of their 43-truck supply convoy in the southern Iraqi town of Safwan, near the Kuwaiti border, on Nov. 16, 2006. "

LoL. enjoy the crow.

 

[noto12ious]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: noto12ious

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were civilian men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what the fvck was their crime exactly? Driving while American!?

you're one twisted SOB...

driving while illegally occupating their country...from a war based on a myriad of intentional lies.

We are not illegally occupying their country. More than likely the captors are from Saudi Arabia anyway, not Iraq. Either way, we are not in there illegally until the new Iraqi ELECTED government tells us to GTFO. Until then you should STFU.

wow, you mean the government we illegally overthrew then installed. lol.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: noto12ious

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: noto12ious

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were civilian men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what the fvck was their crime exactly? Driving while American!?

you're one twisted SOB...

driving while illegally occupating their country...from a war based on a myriad of intentional lies.

'occupating'?

These were civilians escorting harmless civilian supplies you dolt! Tell me again, wtf was their war crime?!

Are you retarded, drunk, or both? I'm serious...

"The first four men were security contractors with Kuwait -based Crescent Security and were captured in a brazen ambush of their 43-truck supply convoy in the southern Iraqi town of Safwan, near the Kuwaiti border, on Nov. 16, 2006. "

LoL. enjoy the crow.

what crow?!??

My local McDonalds has armed private security guards posted on Friday nights... are they now considered agents of the US government!??

Seriously, what's wrong with you?

These men were not contracted by the US or Coalition forces in Iraq. They were hired by a private company to escort supply convoys to various locales throughout Iraq. How is that a g'damn war crime!?

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: ironwing
Read the Nuremberg Principles, and get back to me on that. Actually read them, don't suppose what they might say is a war crime but what they actually say is a war crime (crime against the peace in this case). When doing so, keep in mind that the language in the principles is there at the insistence of the U.S.

So tell me what their war crime is if you are so sure they were committing one. You aren't going to be proven right by telling me to read the definition. If it's such a brazen war crime you should be able to pretty easily point it out.

Here it is:

Nuremberg Principles
Principle VI
The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

(a) Crimes against peace:
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

The act of participating in a war of aggression is a crime against the peace under the Nuremberg Principles.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: noto12ious

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: noto12ious

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were civilian men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what the fvck was their crime exactly? Driving while American!?

you're one twisted SOB...

driving while illegally occupating their country...from a war based on a myriad of intentional lies.

We are not illegally occupying their country. More than likely the captors are from Saudi Arabia anyway, not Iraq. Either way, we are not in there illegally until the new Iraqi ELECTED government tells us to GTFO. Until then you should STFU.

wow, you mean the government we illegally overthrew then installed. lol.

We didn't install their government sunshine. The citizens voted, they were elected.

I don't want to hear any nut job conspiracy theory about them being in our pocket unless you can back it up.

 

[noto12ious]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: noto12ious

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: noto12ious

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: ironwing
What were these hostages doing in Iraq? Oh yeah, they were mercenaries implementing Bush's illegal, for-profit war. Their plight is terrible. Maybe, if folks don't get side tracked by the idealogical, jingoistic nonsense coming out of the White House they will learn not to participate in war crimes.

These were civilian men escorting 43 civilian trucks filled with building supplies and perishables... what the fvck was their crime exactly? Driving while American!?

you're one twisted SOB...

driving while illegally occupating their country...from a war based on a myriad of intentional lies.

'occupating'?

These were civilians escorting harmless civilian supplies you dolt! Tell me again, wtf was their war crime?!

Are you retarded, drunk, or both? I'm serious...

"The first four men were security contractors with Kuwait -based Crescent Security and were captured in a brazen ambush of their 43-truck supply convoy in the southern Iraqi town of Safwan, near the Kuwaiti border, on Nov. 16, 2006. "

LoL. enjoy the crow.

what crow?!??

My local McDonalds has armed private security guards posted on Friday nights... are they now considered agents of the US government!??

Seriously, what's wrong with you?

These men were not contracted by the US or Coalition forces in Iraq. They were hired by a private company to escort supply convoys to various locales throughout Iraq. How is that a g'damn war crime!?

i never said it was a war crime. now stfu.

they are, however, part of the american effort, which is illegal. can't blame the defenders.

it's funny, all your anger is never pointed at the liars that put our boys in that situation, eh?

good stuff.

 

[UberNeuman]

The OP's post is flamebait with the "Religion of Peace showing it's colors again..."