Seven Japanese chipmakers to challenge Intel, AMD

[MODEL3]

http://vr-zone.com/articles/seven-japanese-chipmakers-to-challenge-intel-amd/7583.html?doc=7583

Not content with the American domination of the CPU industry, seven of Japan's dominant processor designers and manufacturers have teamed up to create a revolutionary new microprocessor.

The coalition is led by the NEC and Renesas merger, which makes them world's third largest chipmaker. Joining them is Hitachi, Toshiba, Fujitsu, Panasonic and Canon. A dizzying crowd of electronic giants, indeed.

They intend to create a commercial CPU that runs on power cells, uses power based on the amount of data processed and remains switched on even during power cuts. A current prototype is reported to be running at 30% the power of current CPUs.

This new standard, along with the CPU, will be introduced in 2012. And it is not just PCs - derivatives of the processor will be designed for an entire range of consumer electronics.

Even if the Seven Samurai product does end up largely more than attractive than Intel or AMD CPUs, the transition from x86 will no doubt take years, as it takes time for support and software to build up for a new platform. Nevertheless, this might just be the future of computing. That has probably been said before, but when seven of Japan's largest electronic giants come together, surely, they mean business

 

[INOUTx64]

I always wondered why Japanese are not making any CPU?s. Are there any reasons for it? They do have electronic superiority, I think it is matter of time before they produce a killer chip that forces Intel and AMD to run for their money. However, superior product does not necessarily translate into commercial success.

 

[taltamir]

their advantage is that japan makes so many video games. Companies like intel like to treat gaming like it is a dirty thing done by a fringe minority. When in fact the vast majority of processing improvements was done to fuel gaming demand.
CPU and GPU improvements: fuel gaming demands
Internet speed improvements: Fueled by porno demand first and foremost, with piracy (OF porn and of anything else) following.
HDD space improvements: fueled by piracy (primarily of porn). (How many people can afford to pay 400,000$ for legit music to fill their ipod?)

There is a reason why console makes can sell people millions of lobotomized DRM laden outdated consoles. Containing hardware a fraction of the power their PC has... it is called exclusive titles. People will buy a platform that has content for it.

If enough gaming companies get behind this technology, it can topple x86 within a year.

 

[Lonyo]

You mean like PowerPC has toppled x86 by being used in the Wii, PS3 and 360 processors (IIRC)?
Oh wait, those are the 3 current gen gaming consoles, all using to a degree the same CPU architecture, and the only consumer PC manufacturer that used to use that same architecture switched to x86 (Apple).

Yes, I can clearly see gaming company support driving a new CPU into the mainstream for consumer computers.

Of course this new CPU could in theory gain acceptance into households, especially if it sees use in future games consoles, by being made into media devices (like the Xbox 360 and PS3 already are), but to say it's going to topple x86, and especially within a year, is insanity.
That's like saying games consoles will topple x86 because they are taking on more duties (e.g. DVR type duties with video on demand, DVD/Bluray type duties with DVD/Bluray drives and movies on demand).

At the end of the day, x86 is becoming slowly more irrelevant in many respects, especially if some applications move to being browser based and thus platform agnostic, but I don't see a new architecture under any circumstances destroying x86. It will undoubtably form its own niche and probably expand nicely, but I don't see PPC or ARM destroying everyone even though they have applications outside current markets. ARM netbooks are barely beginning, for example, and one reason is because making an x86 notebook is easier.

 

[Idontcare]

Some of you may be too young to remember the last time the Japanese rallied around the idea of putting an end to western-led domination in the CPU market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer

At any rate I would just say that if Fujitsu Sparc couldn't do it, and if Sony CELL couldn't do it, then the odds of a multi-corporate committee-driven effort starting over by reinventing the entire infrastructure support wheel for yet another new architecture and do better than what AMD has accomplished is highly likely to end in fifth-generation computer déjà vu.

At the end of the ten year period the project had spent over 50 billion yen (about US $400 million at 1992 exchange rates) and was terminated without having met its goals. The workstations had no appeal in a market where general purpose systems could now take over their job and even outrun them.

 

[Viditor]

Originally posted by: Lonyo
You mean like PowerPC has toppled x86 by being used in the Wii, Xbox and 360 processors (IIRC)?
Oh wait, those are the 3 current gen gaming consoles, all using to a degree the same CPU architecture, and the only consumer PC manufacturer that used to use that same architecture switched to x86 (Apple).

Yes, I can clearly see gaming company support driving a new CPU into the mainstream for consumer computers.

An excellent point...but to be fair, the PowerPC and Cell chips are making big strides into the supercomputer areas as well.

 

[frostedflakes]

I'd assume these are intended more for consumer electronics and stuff like that. There's no point in taking on x86 in the personal computer market, that's a battle that can't be won.

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: INOUTx64
I always wondered why Japanese are not making any CPU?s. Are there any reasons for it? They do have electronic superiority, I think it is matter of time before they produce a killer chip that forces Intel and AMD to run for their money. However, superior product does not necessarily translate into commercial success.

I doubt they'll come up with a superior CPU. Well, AMD is falling far enough behind that they might be able to catch up, but Intel and AMD aren't just far ahead on x86 cpu design, they're very far ahead on high performance cpu design in general.
Plus, Windows won't switch to it, meaning that for most people, it won't even be a PC.

What you could see is a transition from PCs to Internet enabled appliances. And in that case, ARM is already doing pretty well and scales across a large performance range.

 

[dguy6789]

There's virtually no chance that this will ever be able to compete with x86 processors.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: Lonyo
You mean like PowerPC has toppled x86 by being used in the Wii, Xbox and 360 processors (IIRC)?
Oh wait, those are the 3 current gen gaming consoles, all using to a degree the same CPU architecture, and the only consumer PC manufacturer that used to use that same architecture switched to x86 (Apple).

The original xbox used an modified PIII.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb

Originally posted by: Lonyo
You mean like PowerPC has toppled x86 by being used in the Wii, Xbox and 360 processors (IIRC)?
Oh wait, those are the 3 current gen gaming consoles, all using to a degree the same CPU architecture, and the only consumer PC manufacturer that used to use that same architecture switched to x86 (Apple).

The original xbox used an modified PIII.

I think he meant to say the PS3.

 

[taltamir]

You mean like PowerPC has toppled x86 by being used in the Wii, PS3 and 360 processors (IIRC)?
Oh wait, those are the 3 current gen gaming consoles, all using to a degree the same CPU architecture, and the only consumer PC manufacturer that used to use that same architecture switched to x86 (Apple).

That is actually NOT what i mean... I said EXCLUSIVES. the majority of PC games are made by only a few companies. Get those together and make THEM make exclusives for your SUPERIOR chip (it would help a lot if it is actually a superior product) and you could topple x86.
Get a vastly inferior chip, and a situation where most companies provide exclusives to your superior competitors (most PC games are x86 exclusive, powerPC chips are inferior to intel chips) and you are screwed.

actually it is good that you mention the consoles... they all use powerPC even though intel makes superior x86 chips... why? because all their games are exclusives for the powerPC, if customers were given the choice between a fast PS3 running a quad core intel or a slow PS3 running powerPC derivative (the cell), with all games running on both, then people would chose the intel

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Fox5

Originally posted by: INOUTx64
I always wondered why Japanese are not making any CPU?s. Are there any reasons for it? They do have electronic superiority, I think it is matter of time before they produce a killer chip that forces Intel and AMD to run for their money. However, superior product does not necessarily translate into commercial success.

I doubt they'll come up with a superior CPU. Well, AMD is falling far enough behind that they might be able to catch up, but Intel and AMD aren't just far ahead on x86 cpu design, they're very far ahead on high performance cpu design in general.
Plus, Windows won't switch to it, meaning that for most people, it won't even be a PC.

What you could see is a transition from PCs to Internet enabled appliances. And in that case, ARM is already doing pretty well and scales across a large performance range.

google is building an OS... this could result in all sort of interesting things

 

[alyarb]

cloud apps and mobile hardware/software platforms like chromeOS are definitely not for performance. youtube/google video and spreadsheets will likely be the most strenuous apps run on Chrome-based systems.

 

[taltamir]

at version 1 maybe... cloud is a useful thing and needs to be created. But you cannot simply replace everything with cloud, sometimes it makes more sense to do something locally...

 

[alyarb]

if you're referring to chrome as a mobile platform, it's not going to be fast. you're talking about battery-optimized ARM chipsets. if you're referring to it as a cloud computing platform, who cares how efficiently the performance comes, because none of the work is done by the host (potentially even more battery savings).


but yeah. blu ray transcoding. not going to be done over a network.

 

[taltamir]

can't be done? that is what YOU think ...
They actually have a thing where you get a server running games, like crysis, and it streams them to you... you can do it but it has input lag.
This is actually what i meant by benefits to doing things locally.

give battery-optimized ARM chipsets 10 years of minutarization.

 

[alyarb]

what was the average and peak throughput during the crysis demonstration? how much greater than ping was the input lag?

 

[taltamir]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnLive
closed beta ATM

also i came across this: http://www.streammygame.com/smg/index.php

apparently you can host your own games, say, crysis on your home machine. And stream it to any laptop or low end machine to play it on. Even linux machines or a PS3 running linux.

mmm... that stream my game thing actually seems pretty cool, especially for those who like silent systems... (its silent, because the video card is in another room)

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Lonyo
You mean like PowerPC has toppled x86 by being used in the Wii, PS3 and 360 processors (IIRC)?
Oh wait, those are the 3 current gen gaming consoles, all using to a degree the same CPU architecture, and the only consumer PC manufacturer that used to use that same architecture switched to x86 (Apple).

Yes, I can clearly see gaming company support driving a new CPU into the mainstream for consumer computers.

Of course this new CPU could in theory gain acceptance into households, especially if it sees use in future games consoles, by being made into media devices (like the Xbox 360 and PS3 already are), but to say it's going to topple x86, and especially within a year, is insanity.
That's like saying games consoles will topple x86 because they are taking on more duties (e.g. DVR type duties with video on demand, DVD/Bluray type duties with DVD/Bluray drives and movies on demand).

At the end of the day, x86 is becoming slowly more irrelevant in many respects, especially if some applications move to being browser based and thus platform agnostic, but I don't see a new architecture under any circumstances destroying x86. It will undoubtably form its own niche and probably expand nicely, but I don't see PPC or ARM destroying everyone even though they have applications outside current markets. ARM netbooks are barely beginning, for example, and one reason is because making an x86 notebook is easier.

I think the main reason for the PPC selection was based on cost alone, with the exception of Sony who would obviously use their in-house PPC design (Cell).

 

[bamacre]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I would imagine for their cpu to have the "success" of an Intel, then it would need to be able to run Windows.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I would imagine for their cpu to have the "success" of an Intel, then it would need to be able to run Windows.

That, or it would need to enable a competing OS to become as widely successful as windows.

(to wit, if Apple's Mac OS on G4/G5 couldn't do it for PPC architecture, then not sure what kind of traction a Japan multi-corporate effort will make in battling either Intel or MS)

 

[alyarb]

the ironic thing is that apple bailed on PPC and now little chance of ever running POWER7 on OS X. they'll be relying on opencl for gflops.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: bamacre
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I would imagine for their cpu to have the "success" of an Intel, then it would need to be able to run Windows.

That, or it would need to enable a competing OS to become as widely successful as windows.

(to wit, if Apple's Mac OS on G4/G5 couldn't do it for PPC architecture, then not sure what kind of traction a Japan multi-corporate effort will make in battling either Intel or MS)

Well, I would assume they'd be going for a different niche market, namely something inexpensive, and Apple being a "premium" product (boy, do I hate having to use that term).

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: alyarb
the ironic thing is that apple bailed on PPC and now little chance of ever running POWER7 on OS X. they'll be relying on opencl for gflops.

There was little chance of Power7 running OSX even if Apple did use PPC still.
Apple's chips were usually custom variants of IBM chips from a generation or more ago. The G5 was Power4 based, meaning we'd be seeing Power5 or maybe Power6 based processors around now.

Anyhow, expect Apple to put out a dual socket Dunnington based Mac. 12 cores with hyperthreading should pull off around the same performance as the Power7.