Setting up wireless throughout

[TJK15]

Hello, I've recent acquired a new summer job during my university holidays as an IT tech support. This is only my first year of completion and I am a computer science major (so it's been all programming) so I have limited knowledge on networking.


Now, I've been tasked with setting up the entire building with a centralized wireless network. Without having any prior knowledge of this I've been researching the fundamentals of networking. It has been quite overwhelming.. there is a lot of terminology, and acronyms thrown in my face.


At this point I'm beginning to understand what a lot of the specs mean so I've created comparisons for several products.


Now, the deal:
I'm having difficulties knowing where to start. I'm not entirely sure what I need to accomplish my goal. I need to have a common wireless profile across all company locations(so someone working in Mongolia can walk into the office stationed here and not have to change their wireless connection). Following this ( like previously mentioned ) I need a centralized point- and from what I take, this is usually the controller that accomplished this.


So, from scratch I believe:
I have the modem for internet access followed by my router to direct that traffic. Connected to the router will be the controller so it acts as a centralized point for all my AP's. Now, I'm very confused after this. So, I need to set up my first AP so that its' radius is in the range of the controller(obviously, so they're able to "speak" to each other). In placement of the next AP's, I would stagger them throughout the building so they can bounce their signals off one another. But... I'm in a three story building with (you could say the exact opposite of open concept) design so it seems to me that all of these access points would not possibly be able to maintain it's full effectiveness throughout the building. So, would I need another controller elsewhere, or a switch maybe?




If anyone had the time and heart for a little clarification I would be very grateful.


Thanks for your time and thought,
Tyler

 

[Ichinisan]

Are we talking about wireless repeaters? I think it would be best if there's a wired infrastructure between the APs.

If I understand correctly, repeaters that operate using WDS offer only *slight* improvement in coverage, even though they have a significant negative impact on performance (at best, throughput is cut in half). Unless things have changed, WDS WiFi repeaters are just a bad idea in general.

With just 2 APs, throughput is cut in half. It has to be placed in an area that has a good signal (otherwise, the network will run at a different modulation, and that already-slower speed will be halved). With 3 APs, you only get 1/3 the bandwidth.

Maybe the newer ones are smart enough to use the 5GHz band between APs and not halve the bandwidth of the 2.4GHz network...? Perhaps someone can clarify that for me.

I've heard of proprietary systems that don't use WDS mode, but have multiple devices presenting a single logical network. I think it would be best to use something like that with a wired connection between the devices.

 

[TJK15]

Thanks for the reply, But nope not looking for a wireless repeater; I agree with you that those wouldn't be very efficient. Especially on this scale.


You mention accumulative AP's will share the total bandwidth , which I anticipated so in this circumstance what would I do to have better distribution of the bandwidth? Could I add several more routers or controllers or switches throughout the building to achieve this?


You also then mention that I could accomplish my task absent WDS mode but I can't have a wired connection between all my ap's and controller(s)- that would require running several wires across the office which is very impractical.


Thanks.

 

[Fardringle]

Do you already have the wireless hardware? If so, what do you have?
If not, what is the available budget for purchasing hardware, and what is the physical size of each floor and building composition (concrete/wood/metal/etc walls), and how many devices do you expect to have attached to each access point?

Setting up a large scale wireless network without any previous experience can be a challenge, but Ubiquiti's Unifi access points work very well with centralized management and easy roaming between access points. Cisco's Meraki systems are easy to administer as well, but I'm not terribly impressed with the two "demo" devices they gave me. They work OK, but tend to shut down under even moderately heavy load (a single Netflix stream will kill them).

 

[azazel1024]

Downside to unifi is, that unless it has been changed with recent firmware updates, they are limited to the same channel for ALL unifis. This can be extremely limiting in large user environments. When you just have a handful of users it can be great.

As for how to get more bandwidth, set each access point to a different channel. You'll want to come up with a scheme where they access points that share a channel don't overlap.

So what you can do is each floor gets it's own channel. So floor 1 might be channel 2.4GHz channel 1 and 5GHz channel 36+40, floor 2 is channel 6 and 5GHz channel 44+48 and floor 3 is channel 11 and 5GHz channel 147+151. Then repeat on floor 4 with floor 1's setup.

If you need higher bandwidth, you can split floors. So it looks like this

6 11
_________ Floor 2
11 6
_________ Floor 1

You alternate which channels go on which side of the floor on each floor. This reduces interference between access points on the same channel. You don't really need a controller for your setup. Controllers are both used as central management points for the APs (you don't need to do that), but also to allow seamless roaming between access points. This is also something you don't necessarily have to have, as the clients will roam between the access points on their own. Not necessarily beautifully and client directed hand-offs CAN sometimes cause some stuff to break (like VOIP, video streaming, etc.)

My experience seems to be different than some peoples, but I have 3 access points across my home and my roaming works really well. Video streaming doesn't break, file transfers don't, VOIP doesn't break, etc. Most times it'll work okay, it is in implementations where connectivity working flawlessly is critical, that centralized controllers and zero hand-off ability are very important, like in hospitals and some businesses.

 

[TJK15]

Appreciate the responses guys.
For fardringle:
The layout isn't too vast but big enough -
Section 1 - two square rooms, 1 with cubicles in the center and surrounding offices. About 50 ft long and wide, separated by another room where receptionist area resides. This also has a few offices around, but it's only maybe 40 by 20.
Section 2 - Basement with gym- standard square with pretty solid concrete walls , I'll only need a single access point in here (wherever the port is located would probably suffice I reckon)
Section 3 - Main hall - 3 room separated , kind of awkward layout. first room looks a backwards L. about 40ft wide at the L and 40 ft long second room is identical to receptionist area and third room is a clutter of offices. And cubicles probably only 30 by 30 feet.
Section 4 - Downstairs, left is a lunch room, not too big. right is a few offices, with a narrow hall.


The problem is that the ports aren't really located near the roof nor walls so I can't just mount and set up on any wall. Would locating my points in some cubicles and offices give the signal enough juice and coverage?




So, I've been really looking at the merkai and uniFi systems because I really like their simplification of networking. Since their cloud based- my controller would act as server/computer for the software the AP's are running on I suppose? Then I would just need a switch with PoE ports to piece them together I reckon?


Problem with merkai is that I believe I need to purchase the software annually, with is $140 PER ACCESS POINT which is absurd! Can I use the points without buying a license?


I believe the uniFi licensing for the software was completely free as its the whole point of a virtual centralized network..


For how many devices connected- shouldn't be too vast since everyone has their office computers wired so it'll pretty much be their phones and the odd laptop. I reckon in


Azaz: That's exactly what I've been researching, and I believe I got the channel understanding down pat . But the single uniFi channel is worrysome...


Thanks again guys, sorry for the vast amount of questions.

 

[TJK15]

Also, just a quick general question: If I have a PoE/PoE+ access point (which is a must for my task), does my controller also need to have PoE ports?

 

[azazel1024]

No, you can utilize POE injectors to pwoer a POE/POE+ access point. Or a POE switch. It depends on how many you have to determine which way is better to go. If you have only a few, 3-4 APs that need POE, then injectors are generally cheaper. If you have a bunch, >4, then a POE switch is probably the way to go.

As for location/coverage...it depends. You won't know until you get equipment in there to try. For an open air space, an 802.11n AP should give you pretty good coverage for a 100x100ft area if it is centrally located. Throw cubicle walls in the way, structual walls, etc. and it can drop a lot.

In my house at a distance of 40ft from my access point through 3 walls, I get around -76dBm signal strength on 2.4GHz. By comparison, for my outdoor AP, to get -76dBm signal strength on 2.4GHz, I have to be standing about 150ft away from the antennas.

 

[RadiclDreamer]

How large of an area? Budget? Any brand preference? What is your existing infrastructure.

Personally I am a fan of the cisco 5508 controllers but there are other options out there depending on your circumcstances.

With a controller based model your access points will communicate back to the controller with something like capwap or lwapp over a normal TCP/IP connection and most of the brains of the operation will be handled by the controller.

 

[TJK15]

How large of an area? Budget? Any brand preference? What is your existing infrastructure.

Personally I am a fan of the cisco 5508 controllers but there are other options out there depending on your circumcstances.

With a controller based model your access points will communicate back to the controller with something like capwap or lwapp over a normal TCP/IP connection and most of the brains of the operation will be handled by the controller.

Existing infrastructure is pretty old, server room with many baseline switches and an old 800 series cicsco router. Budget is kind of up in the air but I'm ideally going to try and provide a relatively low estimate.

Actually I've been looking into either the 5508, or the 2504 for a cheaper alternative, could you share your experiences? OR I've been looking into 3650 or 3850 so I won't need to purchase a separate PoE switch or several PoE injectors for the old baseline switches. Could you tell me about your experience with cisco and your controller?


I'm a bit upset that I'm needed to purchase smartNET for each access point just to receive updates and tech support(but I guess it's not too expensive). There's also several other software's that they offer that I'm confused about. Do I need the prime infrastructure, flexconnect, or Unified Wireless Network Software as separate purchases?

 

[RadiclDreamer]

Ok, for starters that 800 series needs to go, its going end of life VERY soon.

The 5508 can be had for just over $1000 for a 12 AP model and you would just add licenses from there to get to the number you desire.

You do not need to get smartnet for the individual AP, the controller code will upgrade the AP when you upgrade it. Most current AP have lifetime replacement anyway so keep a spare and call it a day.

The 3850 are REALLY nice switches, multi cpu, 64bit and have a ton of nice features. They stack for data and power both which is another huge selling point. You also can get a HA model of the 5508 that will handle your AP in the event of a failure of the main controller, however it does have a 90 day timer that starts when this happens, the timer resets when the main unit is replaced and the AP move back.

My experience with my 3 5508 have been overwhelmingly positive, I highly recommend them, they also support AC access points.

May also want to check out the 5760 as its the new flagship model, but it was kinda buggy in the past, I've heard its getting better though.

 

[TJK15]

Ok, for starters that 800 series needs to go, its going end of life VERY soon.

The 5508 can be had for just over $1000 for a 12 AP model and you would just add licenses from there to get to the number you desire.

You do not need to get smartnet for the individual AP, the controller code will upgrade the AP when you upgrade it. Most current AP have lifetime replacement anyway so keep a spare and call it a day.

The 3850 are REALLY nice switches, multi cpu, 64bit and have a ton of nice features. They stack for data and power both which is another huge selling point. You also can get a HA model of the 5508 that will handle your AP in the event of a failure of the main controller, however it does have a 90 day timer that starts when this happens, the timer resets when the main unit is replaced and the AP move back.

My experience with my 3 5508 have been overwhelmingly positive, I highly recommend them, they also support AC access points.

May also want to check out the 5760 as its the new flagship model, but it was kinda buggy in the past, I've heard its getting better though.

Didn't know the router was on its last legs, thanks I'll definitely need to upgrade that.


Hmm, 5508 for $1000? That would be awesome but I've been really shifting away from this model because the lowest price I've found in Canada was $6,725 for the 12 AP model.


Very happy to hear I wont be needing that smartNET for each ap, but I'm still curious on the software that(must, mustnot?) be purchased to configure and mange my AP's.