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Setting up a new server and I'm lost

B

Booshanky

Member
I just started a new job, and they want me to start working on the servers they have here which are a complete mess. They're all windows NT boxes, and there are about five of them which could be consolidated into one box. One that hosts quickbooks, one that is the primary domain controller, a backup domain controller, and a file server.

Sooo, they want me to get a new server and set it up, but the thing is I've never really worked on servers that much and i'm a bit confused about the whole matter.

I have a copy of windows 2k server that i've been playing around with on a spare computer that I found here, but there are a few concepts that are a bit lost on me.

Right now on the NT PDC, the domain is (lets say) COFFEE. So when I got here, I set up my computer and gave it the name I wanted, attached to the domain COFFEE, and set gave myself a login on the NT PDC. The only problem is that when i set up my username on the PDC, I set myself up as an administrator. But when I logged in, i wasnt. So i ended up having to create the same login on MY computer and have it set up as an administrator before it would give me administrator privledges. Is that normal?

Secondly, Since i'm playing aroudn with this new win2k server box and also using my regular login on the COFFEE domain, is there any way to be able to easily switch between domains without having to change the computer name information in the system properties? That's a huge pain.

And lastly, i guess what I really need is a good site that's got a sort of really nice walkthrough for setting up a domain for a small businness.
 
If I were you I would start looking for a new job!!

Ok first thing is first. You can have the Win2k Server join the NT domain with no issues, but then you are still running an NT domain. The preffered method here would be doing a migration to Active Directory. The only thing is I would not suggest someone that doesnt have a lot of server experience to do this. There are a ton of things that can go worng!! If you still are going to give it a try search the net a bit since there is a lot of info out there regarding this exact migration. Oh and far as consolidating down to one server you also dont want to do that. Redunacy is the key here. If that one server goes down you lose everything. You need to have at least two DC's. Also you may consider going directly to 2003 server since 2000 is getting pretty dated.

Last but not least dont me knocking those NT boxes😉 I still have two running at my job that are rock solid!!

John
 
i am assuming you have NT4 Server on your PDC & BDC.
What is your workstation OS? NT4? Win 2k? Winxp Pro?
 
Starting a new job with an unsupported server operating system doesn't sound like fun. You're going to spend your time learning how to manage an obsolete system and will spend a lot more time managing the systems that you would with a modern Active Directory system.

If it was my office, I'd do a migration to an SBS 2003 Server and add a second Windows 2003 Server as a Terminal Server, if you wish. But it's better to run Quickbooks from desktops and host the database on the Server. If you have less than 50 or so employees, there's likely no real need for a second server, unless you really think you need a backup file server. It's a LOT easier to keep a single SBS Server running reliably and fully backed up than five NT4 Servers. Also, SBS provides complete, built-in monitoring, as well as the superb remote access functions.

You'll save a LOT of time an money by running a single SBS server over trying to keep five NT4 boxes going.
 
i highly recommend Server 2003 over 2000 Server.
Instead of a migration i would create a new domain and add users. after that is done i would reload those NT4 boxes with Server 2003 or 2000 Server which ever one you decide to go with. you can make them redundant domain controllers.

as far as consolidating. here are a few random thoughts. having everything on one server is great because it makes it easier to backup and restore. Troubleshooting problems can be easier if everything is in one spot. But if one server goes down then no one is getting anything done. and you better have a damn good backup system. If you are hell bent on consolidating i would get a program like smartsync pro. and sychronize your server shares at night to the other two Servers. This way you can switch everyone over quickly in the event of a system failure and take your time troubleshooting your failed server. this would be in addition to a nightly tape backup.
 
Yes, I know I'm in a bit over my head, but I'm not that worried about it. I just started working here a week ago and I'm usually pretty able to pick this sort of stuff up pretty quickly. We all have to start somewhere, and I guess I'm jumping in feet first.

Anyway, as far as doing a migration to active directory, I might not even want to do that. Turns out they've been using this set up for close to 7 or 8 years and a lot has changed. the company has gone from being a 100+ user network to a 30ish user network with one office connected via VPN, so there are a TON of user accounts and settings that are completely unnecessary and useless. I might just set up the office from scratch considering there are so few users now and i'm going to be changing shares and everything.

Here's the plan i've got right now. I'm going to be setting up one main server to consolidate the user files, quickbooks, and the PDC function. All that will be in a RAID 1 configuration for redundancy against hard drive failure, and it will also be backed up daily. And then i'll probably just use one of the cruddy servers in there now as a BDC. Sound safe?


And blemoine, yes, NT4 server is on the PDC and BDC, and the clients connecting to it are all XP pro or home, depending on what came with the dell computers that everyone is using here. Over the years they upgraded their clients a lot, but neglected the servers pretty bad.


Do you guys reccomend any reading material for me to get better situated with the situation I'm in now?
 
Originally posted by: RebateMonger
Starting a new job with an unsupported server operating system doesn't sound like fun. You're going to spend your time learning how to manage an obsolete system and will spend a lot more time managing the systems that you would with a modern Active Directory system.

If it was my office, I'd do a migration to an SBS 2003 Server and add a second Windows 2003 Server as a Terminal Server, if you wish. But it's better to run Quickbooks from desktops and host the database on the Server. If you have less than 50 or so employees, there's likely no real need for a second server, unless you really think you need a backup file server. It's a LOT easier to keep a single SBS Server running reliably and fully backed up than five NT4 Servers. Also, SBS provides complete, built-in monitoring, as well as the superb remote access functions.
Click to expand...

What exactly is a terminal server?

Also, i'll clarify by saying that we do host the database on the server and have everyone running quickbooks from their desktops.
You'll save a LOT of time an money by running a single SBS server over trying to keep five NT4 boxes going.
Click to expand...

How much would you think it would cost for a copy of SBS + the licenses for around 35ish users?

 
Originally posted by: RebateMonger
Swing Migration - by FAR the easiest and safest way to do a migration.

Certainly, with only 30 Users, it is also possible to just create a new domain and migrate your Exchange mailboxes with Exmerge and .PST files.
Click to expand...

Even easier than that! we dont have an exchange server. I really don't even see exactly why we need a domain to begin with aside from restricting access to users. But for arguments sake, we'll say that we need a domain and that's what i'm going to be creating and setting up.

It seems like it would be much more simple to just create the new server/users from scratch. Basically my issue is that I've never done this before, so I just want to make sure that I don't mess anything up.

 
Originally posted by: Booshanky
...yes, NT4 server is on the PDC and BDC, and the clients connecting to it are all XP pro or home, depending on what came with the dell computers that everyone is using here.
Click to expand...

Be aware that one of the limitations of XP Home is that you can't join domains.
 
Originally posted by: networkman
Originally posted by: Booshanky
...yes, NT4 server is on the PDC and BDC, and the clients connecting to it are all XP pro or home, depending on what came with the dell computers that everyone is using here.
Click to expand...

Be aware that one of the limitations of XP Home is that you can't join domains.
Click to expand...



Well then i'm sure that they've all been upgraded to pro then, because they're all on the domain we've got now.
 
As far as NT goes you need to upgrade it. NT has not been supported by Microsoft for a while now and there are no more security/software updates for it at all. So if there are any security bugs in the software they wont be fixed. That leaves with a large security hole in your setup. As much as I love NT it has to go!

John
 
Terminal Server = lets say you had your quickbooks file on the file server and it. become quite large. everytime someone accesses the file over the network (or vpn) quickbooks freezes up and just runs crappy but when they sit down at the server and run quickbooks it runs great with out a problem. you could install Terminal Services and create a Remote Desktop shortcut to the server on everyones desktop. Now they can logon and use quickbooks as if they were sitting down at the server. The only thing being sent across the network is keystrokes and screen shots. you would not want to setup terminal services on a domain controller because all your users would have to be given Domain Admin rights. The terminal server doesn't actually have to be on a "traditional" server. you can buy a high end workstation and a copy of server 2003.
 
Originally posted by: blemoine
Terminal Server = lets say you had your quickbooks file on the file server and it. become quite large. everytime someone accesses the file over the network (or vpn) quickbooks freezes up and just runs crappy but when they sit down at the server and run quickbooks it runs great with out a problem. you could install Terminal Services and create a Remote Desktop shortcut to the server on everyones desktop. Now they can logon and use quickbooks as if they were sitting down at the server. The only thing being sent across the network is keystrokes and screen shots. you would not want to setup terminal services on a domain controller because all your users would have to be given Domain Admin rights. The terminal server doesn't actually have to be on a "traditional" server. you can buy a high end workstation and a copy of server 2003.
Click to expand...



Funny you mention quickbooks being slow and crappy. That's exactly the type of problem that they're having at the moment. I guess when the file becomes over 100 megs it starts running like a slug for some reason, and they were hoping that a new server would fix that.



Anyway, here are some ideas we have for the hardware of the server. Either building it myself, or getting a server from dell.

Building it myself would likely entail an athlon 64 x2 3800, DFI lanparty NF4 motherboard, dual 400 gig SATA drives in raid 1, nice big case, etc.


OR a dell poweredge 1800 with a single xeon.


Any advantage that the dell would have over the other machine? Especially considering what we'll be using it for?
 
All of these people that are recommending getting to Win2k3 and AD have the right idea. Using a supported OS is always recommended best practice.

However, upgrading to AD can be quite intrusive, especially if you don't really know the environment you're upgrading or how to configure AD in the first place. You should setup your new server as a BDC of the domain, promote it to PDC, and then upgrade to Windows 2003. I believe this is outlined by Microsoft somewhere in their upgrade documentation.

From there, you have a new machine running Win2k3 and acting as your PDC. At that point, you have 2 NT4 BDC and you should have one of those act as your file server and the other as your application server. Although, you could also consolidate your file server and application server on one box instead of 2.

At this point, you should be on track to be able to migrate your file and application serving needs to a second new server running Win2k3 in the future. At that point, you could retire your NT4 machines and go AD everywhere. Or if your NT4 machines have new enough hardware, they can be upgraded to be additional DC. Also, you should know that there are numerous points in the above instructions that you should be taking full backups, and those should be in addition to your (hopefully) regularly scheduled backups.

Edit: Considering what you're using the machine for, the Dell has a number of advantages. Optional redundant power. PCI-X and PCI-Express slots for expansion cards. Support for up to 12GB of RAM. And the biggest advantage, the option for next business day or even 4 hour support. Essentially, the Dell is geared towards business needs and scalability needs. The server you're planning on building is just a high end desktop that fits the computer needs but not the business needs.
 
Well the most important difference is support. Dell servers are rock solid and if you get a nice three year warranty, if anything breaks, they fix it. If you build it and it breaks, good luck explaining that to your boss(es). Also, instead of RAID 1, my suggestion is RAID 5 and also a nice large tape drive for backups.
 
That's exactly the type of problem that they're having at the moment. I guess when the file becomes over 100 megs it starts running like a slug for some reason, and they were hoping that a new server would fix that.
Click to expand...

WORD OF ADVICE: i had a customer who used quickbooks in a small office with 5 users. the company file was around 230 MB. they were of course complaining that it was slow (this is a vast understatement). We built a new file server: P4 3.2 GHZ HT 1 GB 400MHZ ram 2 80 GB SATA Stripped. when they had two people using quickbooks it would lock up the server. It was better but not great. you may want to contact quickbooks and see what they recommend before purchasing a server that may not improve your situation. nothing is worse than having to go back and ask for more money for a project.
 
Originally posted by: blemoine
You may want to contact quickbooks and see what they recommend before purchasing a server that may not improve your situation. nothing is worse than having to go back and ask for more money for a project.
Click to expand...
Quickbooks has VERY specific setups that they support and don't support. Quickbooks DOES NOT support running Quickbooks in Terminal Server mode, unless you buy the Enterprise Edition. Quickbooks DOES support putting the Quickbooks database on a Server and running the application on the client workstations.

Quickbooks 2006, Release 3, uses a new mode (similar to MS Small Business Accounting 2006) where you install a copy of Quickbooks on the Server, BUT NEVER USE IT. It just sets up the database, for access by the client workstations.

Quickbooks CAN be run in Terminal Server mode, but it requires that the Users be Local Administrators on the Server. For this reason, you make the Terminal Server a member server, and NOT a Domain Controller. And SBS 2003, of course, won't run in Terminal Server Mode at all. You need a second server if you want a T.S. The good news is you don't need additional CALS. SBS CALS cover the SBS box and ALL the other Windows 2003 servers in the domain.
 
Originally posted by: Booshanky
Even easier than that! we dont have an exchange server. I really don't even see exactly why we need a domain to begin with aside from restricting access to users. But for arguments sake, we'll say that we need a domain and that's what i'm going to be creating and setting up.
Click to expand...
You have 30 users and no Exchange Server? Do have have ANY mail server? How do they share contacts, set meetings, create calendars, etc?

Active Directory makes administering 30 computers a LOT easier. With one Group Policy setting, you can install and remove software, set security restrictions, and do anything else you want to all the computers in the Domain. Otherwise, you have to go to every computer and install new software, set local security policies, etc. THAT's a lot of work!

SBS 2003 Premium (including Exchange, SQL 2000, and ISA 2004) can be found for as low as $1000 for the Retail-box version at Newegg.com. Retail price is about $1400. User or Device CALS are $80-$100 each. So you'd be at around $3500 total for software and CALs.

If you buy Server 2003, Exchange, SQL, and ISA separately, it's about $5K-$6k for the software, plus separate CALS for each of Server, Exchange, and SQL. I haven't priced those CALs lately, but I'm guessing around $110 per seat for those licenses. SQL is useful because more and more applications are requiring it. ISA is a very powerful firewall and is great for controlling and monitoring client Internet usage, besides its security aspects.

Normally, you set up SBS 2003 boxes with 2GB of ECC RAM, RAID 1 or 5, and use either tape or USB hard drives for maintaining offsite backups.
 
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