Servers, Servers, Servers....This time: OS

[Goosemaster]

I am finally setting up a website( thanks for for all the previous help) for my Dad's compnany which is doing very well.

I am still undecisive on the os however. I have been toying with Win2k AdvancedServeron the server listed in my sig, and although it is easy to operate, I find it sort of slow.

I bought SuSe Linux 7.3 Pro a few days ago (could not wait 'till april22 for v8.0)..and wanted some input from the networking gurus here.

First of all...I have my zone set to zoneedit.com's servers and have a dinamic Ip dns updater setup and I know that their is a linux client as well...


In general, my uestion ends up being, would you recommend I use linux. I know this is an OS question, but I wanted people experienced in networking for input.

Here is another barage of questions I have:

1. Is there any program for linux that will allow for a Terminal Services-type administration interface?
2. Would it be easy to setup a mail server on linux?
3. What are the main differences I would encounter in going to linux...pros cons?

Thanks for your help.

P.S My site goes live in about 48 hours..as in the nameserver change will take affect.

my site

 

[N11]

2. Would it be easy to setup a mail server on linux?

Setting up a mail server on linux whether it be sendmail or exim can be somewhat difficult if you don't have a good reference book to work from.

3. What are the main differences I would encounter in going to linux...pros cons?

I recommend apache 1.3.23 on red hat 7.2 if you want a serious web server.

The pros are that you will have one of the most stable, secure web server solutions possible. Cons will be that it is more difficult to maintain and administer than a Windows 2000 machine.

I don't know the answer to your gui remote administration with linux -- I've never used such a thing. I know that you can forward X11 traffic with ssh so I assume this is possible.

 

[Goosemaster]

thanks for the quick reply...

For the moment I think I'll stay with SuSe Linux as I have heard good things about it and they are the only manuals I have anyways.


As for a Terminal Sevices equiv, I just found out that VNC has a linux client(I thought it was only Unix(Mac) and WIndows)

It seems as if Win2kAdv Server might win here..

I have yet to install it on the server...which is at college..going back today....but will get around to it soon....

THen again..Linux might be awesome...


Basically I want to build the Absolute GREATEST website for my dad...I'm even taking Web design classes this summer since my html is is so crappy and I need to learn php...bla bla bla


Here is the end result I want...feel free to recommend which Os would fit the bill the best...

1. Website is for Construction/Remodeling Services(My father is a contractor)

2. No online purchasing as of yet(possibly) but each client will have their own account with schematics and other architectural drawing...bills..etc...no CC numbers or anything...still ssl

3. Want to have mail server setup

4. Disccusiom board(I'm set I think....I don't know about kinux boards)

most of the software I have found is for windows and I wanted to see what were my options for linux



Thanks

Keep the reponses coming...these forums are a jewel of the nile...

 

[N11]

Once again I entirely recommend linux.

Which software are you looking to run on this server?

There really is no way to justify the expenses for a windows 2000 advance server license when your linux alternative costs nothing and is an all around better solution. Particularly for a small scale site. (I may be missing a key detail but is there a particular reason for using advanced server for this?)

If you want my recommendation after reading your requests, rather than go through the turmoil of building and administering a server for what may end up being a very small scale solution I'd go with an established host.
(note: moderate bias here)

|
|
v

 

[JustinLerner]

I've gotta sorta agree with N11.

I guess if each client will have their own schematics, you will be providing data storage that you think is more secure than what's available elsewhere (and need backups and redundancy, those sort of things.) I've gotta state a principle here: I don't really trust third party agreements, even big known names and security, because any one person at a third party business can compromise security of information.

Software availability (and compatibility) is important, but if you are just using the Advanced Server for Web, FTP, data storage and retieval; e-mail; and discussion board; I would think any OS would work, even the standard server.

If you are going to implement Windows TSAC (Terminal Services Adv Client, for the Web) so they can use specific applications over the web, then that's another situation. (In my opinion, all Terminal Services, RDP, Linux based, Citrix, Windows, etc are too slow for the web.)

 

[bignick]

i would go with engarde linux or trustix linux. they are both simple, secure distributions. If you don't have much experience with linux, then go with redhat 7.2, or use mandrake 8.1. remember to uninstall services you won't need.

if you do decide to go with win2k server then make sure to read the NSA's guide to securing windows 2000 server. Use google to find the guide.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Forget VNC. X will only slow you down. Stick with OpenSSH. Its not point and click, but you get just as much control with less bandwidth usage, and a little more security. Not to mention it wont take as many resources as X will.

 

[watts3000]

Is your website going to be database driven because if you use apache you are going to have to know php and MySql. Also have you thought about the administration issuses of apache.

 

[Nothinman]

1. Is there any program for linux that will allow for a Terminal Services-type administration interface?

Check out WebMin, it's not TS but it's faster and can be just as usefull.

2. Would it be easy to setup a mail server on linux?

Most distros have one installed by default. Some aspects can be difficult so I'd think about getting a book on whichever daemon you use, sendmail probably being the most common.

3. What are the main differences I would encounter in going to linux...pros cons?

Everything's different, it's a totally different OS. The only con I can think of is that it's different and there's a nice big learning curve, although I'm biased because I wouldn't ever use Windows for a server, especially web server.

Also have you thought about the administration issuses of apache.

Apache is simple to administer, IIS just seems easier because of the MMC but once you get to know how both work IIS is overly complicated and convoluted, like most other MS software.

 

[cmv]

It sounds like you plan on running the site on a dynamic ip. That might work fine for testing and development but when you go live to customers you might want to go with an outside hosting company. Accounts for this are cheap (decent accounts for $20/month probably or less).

As to OS - use what you are comfortable with. I use Linux and FreeBSD for my servers. The server is really not that important - the HTML, web site design, and database implementation is... I would recommend linux because most, if not all, of the php enabled web hosting companies use some form of unix. That would make it easy to transition your site from your dynamic ip to a proper hosting service. Hosting services almost always charge more for windows accounts over unix accounts...

Lots to consider.

 

[fivepesos]

what sort of content do u plan to provide? i cant realy see a demand for dynamic database driven content for a contracting company. i mean as cool as having all the drawings and bills online, it will only add to cost that your father will have to spend. scan all the architectural drawings, scan bills, maintain (and secure) list of customers.

to me, it seems a very basic website with nothing more that contact information and picture of your work would be fine. anything more is purely superfluous and only adds cost.

as a consumer, i wouldnt choose my contractor based on online features. i would however, reasearch them online (pictures, previous work, etc). i just dont see the need for online content in your bussiness.

the attitude i had when i got my first network admin job was the same as yours. try and automate and computerize everything. but i quickly realized sometimes the older channels of customer/bussiness communication are best.

but if u wanna run a web server, geat. linux is a solid choice. apache with php would be good for dynamic content. and it should be fairly secure.

 

[Goosemaster]

Thanks for the replys

As for the actual content, it will basically what FIVEPESOS said. Myd ad has been one of the Head Carpenters at his company for 10 years..he is no amature. Basically he wants to branch out ...which is what he been doing for the past 5 years anyways. He actually wants to be a CONTRACTOR now, instead of doing mostly everything himself.... Himself.

THe point of the website is for convenience. It is helping me learn about networking, so that is a plus. As for cost....Linux was $79 and so was the Network Solutions Domain registration for 4 years...That's the total cost...we have broadband anyways....and only the electricity will be extra...not much to run a 700mhz PIII

Basically I want to make sure the customers are sure of what they are getting. They usually look at the design and are content with a copy that they might lose. THen when we do the work perfectly, they change their mind. In addition, I think the customers will be comforted in knowing that we have the experience to keep a desgn posted and assure them that the final product will look like they want it to.

Basically it is an informative site, and the accounts will usually have only one client at a time...as we progress we will certainly have more. Of course, I definitely agree that person-to-person communocation is the best, but why not give the customer even more for their money...peace of mind..more so than before.




A question about the database I did have was ssl. I have seen programs like tinyssl, but how do they work? I alswyas though you needed to get a SSL certificate from sofware.

keep in mind that I am new at this.....I still have to install Linux now that I am back at college.


Thanks

 

[Goosemaster]

sorry double post

 

[Nothinman]

A question about the database I did have was ssl. I have seen programs like tinyssl, but how do they work? I alswyas though you needed to get a SSL certificate from sofware.

If the database connection is only internal you don't have to worry about encrypting it.

If you want to offer SSL http for bill checking or whatever you will need to get a cert from someone like Thawte or Verisign, if you install Apache and OpenSSL you'll get (or be able to make) your own certs but they won't be signed by a certificate authority so everyone visiting will get a warning about them.

Linux was $79

Since you have broadband, why not just download it? SuSe won't let you download the whole package for free, but if the $79 is important to you choose someone else.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< A question about the database I did have was ssl. I have seen programs like tinyssl, but how do they work? I alswyas though you needed to get a SSL certificate from sofware.

If the database connection is only internal you don't have to worry about encrypting it.

If you want to offer SSL http for bill checking or whatever you will need to get a cert from someone like Thawte or Verisign, if you install Apache and OpenSSL you'll get (or be able to make) your own certs but they won't be signed by a certificate authority so everyone visiting will get a warning about them. >>



Thats not a big deal if there will be no credit or personal information going over the wire.



<< Linux was $79

Since you have broadband, why not just download it? SuSe won't let you download the whole package for free, but if the $79 is important to you choose someone else. >>



SuSE bundles documentation I believe. So that would be a good reason to buy it.

 

[Nothinman]

Thats not a big deal if there will be no credit or personal information going over the wire.

Well since he's only getting 1 box (AFAIK) it'll probably be all local to the machine anyway.

SuSE bundles documentation I believe. So that would be a good reason to buy it.

Only if you like physical docs, I prefer electronic most of the time.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< Thats not a big deal if there will be no credit or personal information going over the wire.

Well since he's only getting 1 box (AFAIK) it'll probably be all local to the machine anyway. >>



I meant between customer and webserver. But anyhow, having some corrupt corporation like verisign take your money to provide a worthless signature is not worth the money for what he was talking about



<< SuSE bundles documentation I believe. So that would be a good reason to buy it.

Only if you like physical docs, I prefer electronic most of the time. >>



I dont like bringing my laptop into the bathroom to read docs

 

[Santa]

Wow never knew Unix docs help bowel movments.. will have to make note of that. TCP/IP usually gets my gut moving.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< Wow never knew Unix docs help bowel movments.. will have to make note of that. TCP/IP usually gets my gut moving.

>>



Haha. I read just about anything in the office

 

[Nothinman]

I meant between customer and webserver. But anyhow, having some corrupt corporation like verisign take your money to provide a worthless signature is not worth the money for what he was talking about

I meant between the webserver and the database, SSL from the server to the customer is definately a good idea. Thawte also provides certificates that work just as well as Verisign ones and are cheaper.

I dont like bringing my laptop into the bathroom to read docs

I'm not above that, if I had wireless I'd do it more often, hell I've even take my laptop into the bathroom and played CivIII =)

 

[Garion]

This discussion has been very interesting, looking at the merits of different OSes, but there's one thing you're missing here..

When you're building and doing production operations on a box, it's important to use something that you know. If it breaks, you need to be able to resolve the problem quickly and get it back in production. Also, you're talking about some fairly tight timeframes to get it done. No use trying to both learn a system and build a site at the same time.

Yes, Linux/BSD/*IX is a far better general-purpose webserver platform, but if you know NT, do NT. From the description of your site and goals, either would be fine - Heck, you could run it on a Windows 95 box and do just fine.

- G

 

[Nothinman]

Heck, you could run it on a Windows 95 box and do just fine.

Except for the fact that you'd have to reboot it every 49.7 days as the uptime counter rolls over and makes it crash.

 

[fivepesos]

im still kinda wondering where "ecommerce" or a website more complicated then "this is my bussiness, this is my work" fits into a contracting bussiness?

i guess if u absolutely need updates on how your kitchen remodeling is doing, u wouldnt need to leave your desk. or maybe if youre at work. or, you could get up off your lazy butt and go look at the work or wait until you get home.

as far as paying bills or questions, arent the contractors at your home? why go to your computer, when theyre working in your home.

with all the questions of HOW to do this, i think maybe another question should be asked. WHY?

what does a sophisticated online presence (more than a basic informational site) add to your company? how does it increase revenue? would it cause more work on your parts (scanning documents, payment info, whatnot)?

if i was in your position, id layout a nicely formated website complete with a few pictures of previous work, contact info, and any industry certifications that are relevant. maybe mention a link to your company with the Better Bussiness Bureau or some customer recommendations. anything more is very unnecessary.

dont mean to be negative, but i just dont see the added revenue you would get from a web presence (limited one would be good though). going through the cost of hosting and domain registration needs to be justified by an increase in revenue, and i just dont see that.

 

[Goosemaster]

<< i guess if u absolutely need updates on how your kitchen remodeling is doing, u wouldnt need to leave your desk. or maybe if youre at work. or, you could get up off your lazy butt and go look at the work or wait until you get home. >>



Exactly. It is only for convenience and presentation.



As for bill paying..I don't recall wanting to do that...I just want customers to have their own account on the website for their schematics etc now that we don't have ALL of the documents everytime we show up for work

What then...would be the easiest way to make a small database where I could add their info, yet keep it private..that is why I was hinting at ssl



As for buying linux...I know I could have gotten it for free...everyone sane man knows about linuxiso.org..I could have even found a Suse distro from "My sources, but I wanted the hard-copy documentation....call me old fashioned and I'll slice your throat



<< what does a sophisticated online presence (more than a basic informational site) add to your company? how does it increase revenue? would it cause more work on your parts (scanning documents, payment info, whatnot)? >>



The fact that it lets me have a chance to improve my networking skills (and my parents) and allows me to mess with Linux is worth its weight in gold. In addittion, I was speaking with previous customers for their input, and they all told me it was a great idea. They would find it veryconvenient to access this data whenever they wanted to.