Seriously, explain like I am a child...what's the beef between Israel and Palestine?

[cabri]

edit - sorry I misread the question.

The Jordanians did, when they invaded and tried to annihilate the Jews. At that time, they forfeited all legal claim to the land.

I have yet to see Jordan ask for the land back after they lost it during the wars.

 

[theeedude]

edit - sorry I misread the question.

The Jordanians did, when they invaded and tried to annihilate the Jews. At that time, they forfeited all legal claim to the land.

Says who? Where is the deed?
But if the land is now Israeli, then Palestinians living there should be given Israeli citizenship.

 

[sm625]

Explanation for a child: Israel gets LOTS of money. TONs. Enough aid money to buy thousands of cool toys. But in order to get that money they have to be able to justify it. If everything was peaceful and well, the aid would stop. So they hire a few guys to go over into palestine and launch some rockets into Israel, so that they can claim "hey we got this serious and constant threat that requires billions in foreign aid in order to deal with it." "Also, when they cannot find anyone dumb enough or trustworthy enough to go into palestine and launch rockets into Israel, they simply provoke the palestinians into doing it themselves by killing palestinians until they are enraged enough to act violently in retaliation."

And when the child asks "omg are people really that evil?" I respond with "hell yes some can be, and usually they are the ones that seek power. You have no idea how evil people can be, and you really dont want to know. But the important thing is that you grow up and learn the truth, so that you can make intelligent decisions, instead of being mindless morons who know absolutely nothing about what goes on over there, and yet are still willing to shamelessly offer their idiotic naive opinions about what should be done."

 

[cabri]

Says who? Where is the deed?
But if the land is now Israeli, then Palestinians living there should be given Israeli citizenship.

Palestinians do not want the citizenship; they (leaders) desire Israel gone and everything returned back to pre-1948 status.

 

[theeedude]

Palestinians do not want the citizenship; they (leaders) desire Israel gone and everything returned back to pre-1948 status.

Has Israel offered them citizenship and a most of them refused it, then? Or you are just claiming stuff?

 

[cabri]

Explanation for a child: Israel gets LOTS of money. TONs. Enough aid money to buy thousands of cool toys. But in order to get that money they have to be able to justify it. If everything was peaceful and well, the aid would stop. So they hire a few guys to go over into palestine and launch some rockets into Israel, so that they can claim "hey we got this serious and constant threat that requires billions in foreign aid in order to deal with it." "Also, when they cannot find anyone dumb enough or trustworthy enough to go into palestine and launch rockets into Israel, they simply provoke the palestinians into doing it themselves by killing palestinians until they are enraged enough to act violently in retaliation."

And when the child asks "omg are people really that evil?" I respond with "hell yes some can be, and usually they are the ones that seek power. You have no idea how evil people can be, and you really dont want to know. But the important thing is that you grow up and learn the truth, so that you can make intelligent decisions, instead of being mindless morons who know absolutely nothing about what goes on over there, and yet are still willing to shamelessly offer their idiotic naive opinions about what should be done."

First paragraph seems BS and Arab propaganda

Second makes sense.

 

[QuantumPion]

I have yet to see Jordan ask for the land back after they lost it during the wars.

Duh. Neither does Egypt want Gaza back. They know the territory is mostly full of dysfunctional refugees and terrorists, why would they want to be responsible for caring for those people when they can blame Israel on their woes instead?

 

[fskimospy]

And who is doing anything about Russia and Red China.
Every since WWII, it is always condemnation of Israel; where is the condemnation of Russia & China? What talk, let alone punishment was ever done.

Economic sanctions again Russia now, 70 years after they started the steam roller. And Russia/USSR was not being attacked externally within that time frame.

Please complain about Israel when she is not being attacked externally for 70 years.

I am still trying to figure out which country Israel is occupying. Trans-Jordan or Egypt.

Neither country is complaining about their territory being occupied.

If you think there has been no condemnation of Russia or China over the last 70 years I must assume you have had no access to TV, newspaper, radio, or the internet over the last 70 years.

Furthermore, this is part of a continuing attempt to justify Israel's action through the actions of others. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Furthermore, this is part of a continuing attempt to justify Israel's action through the actions of others. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

So Israel should not act when attacked? Israel should sit back and commit self genocide??

 

[cabri]

If you think there has been no condemnation of Russia or China over the last 70 years I must assume you have had no access to TV, newspaper, radio, or the internet over the last 70 years.

Furthermore, this is part of a continuing attempt to justify Israel's action through the actions of others. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

What has been done to Russia/USSR and China in retaliation for their actions since WWII?

What country has attacked them based on the country's philosophy or just because they are there?

Have they been forced to return land that they took from other countries?

When did the Arab countries get punished for their actions against Israel?
What punishment against the Palestinians (Hamas) of Gaza for their rocket attacks against Israeli civilians.

Level the playing field and then I will be willing to "evaluate/condemn" Israel for further actions.

 

[Brainonska511]

Land was retained to provide a buffer zone against being attacked.

If it's a buffer zone for protecting Israel, why do they allow it to be settled? Does the buffer zone then need to grow to protect the new, illegal settlements?

 

[dainthomas]

No, probably not. History shows pretty well that insurgent campaigns eventually win.

In the vast majority of cases, I agree. But there's been a lot of not-winning going on for seven decades.

 

[Caravaggio]

To Yoda

The failure of the Bernadotte ‘scheme’ came as the Jews began to have greater success in repelling the invading Arab forces and expanding control over territory outside the partition boundaries.

What utter nonsense. Do you think that you are talking to a group of Alzheimer’s patients?

Count Folke Bernadotte’s plan failed because your ultra-Zionist pals, Shamir’s death squads from Lehi, murdered him on the 17th September 1948.
You really are a low-life, lying scoundrel, a Zionist shill.
Newell S. got it right, back in post 5.

Here is a semblance of the truth:

Bernadotte was assassinated on Friday 17 September 1948 by members of the armed Jewish Zionist group Lehi (commonly known as the Stern Gang or Stern Group).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bernadotte_funeral.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bernadotte_funeral.jpg
Bernadotte's funeral: From left: Sir Alexander Cadogan, Ernest Bevin, George Marshall, William Lyon Mackenzie King
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OscarStockholmNorra.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OscarStockholmNorra.jpg
Bernadotte family grave in Solna where the remains of Prince Oscar Bernadotte also are interred.
A three man 'center' of this extreme Jewish group had approved the killing: Yitzhak Yezernitsky (the future Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Shamir), Nathan Friedmann (also called Natan Yellin-Mor) and Yisrael Eldad (also known as Scheib).[citation needed] A fourth leader, Emmanuel Strassberg (Hanegbi) was also suspected by the Israeli prime minister David Ben-Gurion of being part of the group that had decided on the assassination.[30][31][32][33] The assassination was planned by the Lehi operations chief in Jerusalem, Yehoshua Zettler. A four-man team ambushed Bernadotte's motorcade in Jerusalem's Katamon neighborhood. Two of them, Yitzhak Ben Moshe (Markovitz) and Avraham Steinberg, shot at the tires of the UN vehicles. A third, Yehoshua Cohen, shot Bernadotte at close range through the open window of the car. The bullets also hit a French officer who was sitting beside him, Colonel André Serot, a U.N. Observer who had been mistaken for Dr. Ralph Bunche, the American aide to Bernadotte. Both Bernadotte and Serot were killed. Meshulam Makover, the fourth accomplice, was the driver of the getaway car.[34][35] General Åge Lundström, who was in the UN vehicle, described the incident as follows:
“In the Katamon quarter, we were held up by a Jewish Army type jeep placed in a road block and filled with men in Jewish Army uniforms. At the same moment, I saw an armed man coming from this jeep. I took little notice of this because I merely thought it was another checkpoint. However, he put a Tommy gun through the open window on my side of the car, and fired point blank at Count Bernadotte and Colonel Serot. I also heard shots fired from other points, and there was considerable confusion... Colonel Serot fell in the seat in back of me, and I saw at once that he was dead. Count Bernadotte bent forward, and I thought at the time he was trying to get cover. I asked him: 'Are you wounded?' He nodded, and fell back.... When we arrived [at the Hadassah hospital]... I carried the Count inside and laid him on the bed.... I took off the Count's jacket and tore away his shirt and undervest. I saw that he was wounded around the heart and that there was also a considerable quantity of blood on his clothes about it. When the doctor arrived, I asked if anything could be done, but he replied that it was too late."[36]
The murders took place at Ben Zion Guini Square, off Hapalmah Street.[37]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Folke_Bernadotte_monument_Engelska_parken.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Folke_Bernadotte_monument_Engelska_parken.jpg
Folke Bernadotte Memorial in Uppsala, Sweden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yellin-Mor_&_Shmuleiwitz_released.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yellin-Mor_&_Shmuleiwitz_released.jpg
Nathan Yellin-Mor (center) and Matityahu Shmueliwitz in front of the Acre prison, after their release in 1949
The following day the United Nations Security Council condemned the killing of Bernadotte as "a cowardly act which appears to have been committed by a criminal group of terrorists in Jerusalem while the United Nations representative was fulfilling his peace-seeking mission in the Holy Land."[3

 

[JEDIYoda]

Bernadotte was assassinated on Friday 17 September 1948 by members of the armed Jewish Zionist group Lehi (commonly known as the Stern Gang or Stern Group).


Bernadotte's funeral: From left: Sir Alexander Cadogan, Ernest Bevin, George Marshall, William Lyon Mackenzie King


Bernadotte family grave in Solna where the remains of Prince Oscar Bernadotte also are interred.
A three man 'center' of this extreme Jewish group had approved the killing: Yitzhak Yezernitsky (the future Prime Minister of IsraelYitzhak Shamir), Nathan Friedmann (also called Natan Yellin-Mor) and Yisrael Eldad (also known as Scheib).[citation needed] A fourth leader, Emmanuel Strassberg (Hanegbi) was also suspected by the Israeli prime minister David Ben-Gurion of being part of the group that had decided on the assassination.[30][31][32][33] The assassination was planned by the Lehi operations chief in Jerusalem, Yehoshua Zettler. A four-man team ambushed Bernadotte's motorcade in Jerusalem's Katamon neighborhood. Two of them, Yitzhak Ben Moshe (Markovitz) and Avraham Steinberg, shot at the tires of the UN vehicles. A third, Yehoshua Cohen, shot Bernadotte at close range through the open window of the car. The bullets also hit a French officer who was sitting beside him, Colonel André Serot, a U.N. Observer who had been mistaken for Dr. Ralph Bunche, the American aide to Bernadotte. Both Bernadotte and Serot were killed. Meshulam Makover, the fourth accomplice, was the driver of the getaway car.[34][35] General Åge Lundström, who was in the UN vehicle, described the incident as follows:
“In the Katamon quarter, we were held up by a Jewish Army type jeep placed in a road block and filled with men in Jewish Army uniforms. At the same moment, I saw an armed man coming from this jeep. I took little notice of this because I merely thought it was another checkpoint. However, he put a Tommy gun through the open window on my side of the car, and fired point blank at Count Bernadotte and Colonel Serot. I also heard shots fired from other points, and there was considerable confusion... Colonel Serot fell in the seat in back of me, and I saw at once that he was dead. Count Bernadotte bent forward, and I thought at the time he was trying to get cover. I asked him: 'Are you wounded?' He nodded, and fell back.... When we arrived [at the Hadassah hospital]... I carried the Count inside and laid him on the bed.... I took off the Count's jacket and tore away his shirt and undervest. I saw that he was wounded around the heart and that there was also a considerable quantity of blood on his clothes about it. When the doctor arrived, I asked if anything could be done, but he replied that it was too late."[36]
The murders took place at Ben Zion Guini Square, off Hapalmah Street.[37]


Folke Bernadotte Memorial in Uppsala, Sweden


Nathan Yellin-Mor (center) and Matityahu Shmueliwitz in front of the Acre prison, after their release in 1949
The following day the United Nations Security Council condemned the killing of Bernadotte as "a cowardly act which appears to have been committed by a criminal group of terrorists in Jerusalem while the United Nations representative was fulfilling his peace-seeking mission in the Holy Land."[3

as many Jews would say -- soooo...........

 

[cabri]

If it's a buffer zone for protecting Israel, why do they allow it to be settled? Does the buffer zone then need to grow to protect the new, illegal settlements?

Buffer Zone is not barren. It was an area to fight in before the core population became endangered.

Settlements within the buffer zone are intended to act as a trip wire and deterrent to outside aggression.

 

[Rebel_L]

Pretty simple. Israel's occupation of that land is in violation of international law that was in effect when they occupied it. They have a moral obligation to follow international law.

Same wasn't true for Mexico.

Easy enough?

I never understand why you seem to get so confused about morality. Morality is about right and wrong, not legal and illegal. While the two ideas overlap in a many places they are not the same thing. Slavery for instance didn't become wrong because the law was changed... the law was changed because slavery was wrong.

There is no moral obligation to obey laws. I am not sure if there is even a legal obligation to obey laws rather to submit to the ruling of the legal system for your actions.

Then there is still the issue of what makes a legal authority a legal authority over you. I can declare myself a legal authority and pass a law that says you have to send me a million dollars next week, yet somehow I get the feeling you will not feel any obligation to send me a million dollars. There has to be some sort of acceptance on your part that I am a legal authority over you before you for accept my judgments.

In the case of Israel it would be one discussion to talk about international law, if it even applies to Israel in the first place, and how to get Israel to submit to the legal authority whose laws they are violating. It is a totally different discussion to talk about if they are doing anything immoral.

 

[Caravaggio]

as many Jews would say -- soooo...........

So, you are quite happy to accept that Shamir and Lehi murdered Count Folke Bernadotte? Clearly you are not denying it.
The man who saved thousands of Jews from the gas chambers.
Do you see no moral problem with that? The man who saved thousands of Jews, murdered by Jews?
That's par for your course, is it?

 

[QuantumPion]

I never understand why you seem to get so confused about morality. Morality is about right and wrong, not legal and illegal. While the two ideas overlap in a many places they are not the same thing. Slavery for instance didn't become wrong because the law was changed... the law was changed because slavery was wrong.

There is no moral obligation to obey laws. I am not sure if there is even a legal obligation to obey laws rather to submit to the ruling of the legal system for your actions.

Then there is still the issue of what makes a legal authority a legal authority over you. I can declare myself a legal authority and pass a law that says you have to send me a million dollars next week, yet somehow I get the feeling you will not feel any obligation to send me a million dollars. There has to be some sort of acceptance on your part that I am a legal authority over you before you for accept my judgments.

In the case of Israel it would be one discussion to talk about international law, if it even applies to Israel in the first place, and how to get Israel to submit to the legal authority whose laws they are violating. It is a totally different discussion to talk about if they are doing anything immoral.

Excellent post. Unfortunately I think you would have better luck trying to convince a 9/11 truther or moon landing hoaxer the error of their ways rather than eskimospy the idea that Jews have the right to exist.

 

[raildogg]

Both sides are heavily conditioned by their parents, grandparents, teachers, friends and their society in general.

If, lets say hatred between these two sides started thousands of years ago, why are they still fighting today? The people who started the hatred are long gone.

It's because they read what their forefathers did and continue to repeat the stupid cycle.

Thus, history repeats itself and humans never, ever learn from history.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Bullshit. Did you know that by the end of WWII roughly 1/3 of the people living in Israel / Palestine were Jewish and that they had all purchased their land freely from the Arab owners? Probably not because you're an anti-semitic asshole.

(edit: Obviously this percentage was much higher in the UN proposed Israel and lower in the proposed Arab state which was what enabled the patrician plan.)

So I have been really enjoying reading this extraordinarily civil discussion (expecially for ATPN) on an extremely divisive issue. And then you had to come along and shit on it. Why?

You are correct in that Jews owned a small minority of the land at the end of WW2. Now they own almost all of the land. Most of it they took by force and did not pay for. And now the former owners and their descendents are living in impoverished quarantine zones with no right to freely travel in and out. There are still people alive today who remember living in homes that have now been stolen from them...homes that Israelis now live in. Why is noticing that people got their shit stolen anti-semitic? There's got to be something I'm missing here. Maybe since you seem very knowledgeable on this matter, you can educate me. Preferably without the verbal shitting plz.