Seriously, explain like I am a child...what's the beef between Israel and Palestine?

amdhunter

Lifer
May 19, 2003
23,332
249
106
I know something about it being a holy land that Israel lost in the late 60s, and now they want it back? Why in the world can't they simply share the area?
How'd they lose it in the first place?

I am 100% sure this thread will blow up somehow, but I ask everyone that posts in it, post like a kid in elementary school is going to read it (no profanity, racial bias, personal attacks...)
 

zanejohnson

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 2002
7,054
17
81
in 1948 with military power and backing the brittish gave the land to the current group of people who occupy it, with the backing of UN and the brittish military, they succesfully fought off everyone (moved the people that lived on the land prior to 1948) off of there lands, and established the 1948 borders.


fighting has ensued since then, now there is a semi incarcerated (Israeli controlled borders in and out, and in bordering Turkey) group, in a place called Gaza, they elected a group called Hamas, to control there government.. this group is a radical muslim jihadist group, they constantly lob rockets at Israel


Israel retalliates with much more might, kills a disproportionate amount of fighters and civilians


this has gone on since 1948
 

SandEagle

Lifer
Aug 4, 2007
16,809
13
0
lol sure you dont know. :sneaky:
let me explain in laymans terms. basically some brown people known as "the chosen ones" thought it would be cool to kill another group of brownies aka "non-chosen expendables" and steal their land. not just 'hey can i borrow yo land' and never give it back, but straight up decimate the place with bombs, guns, phosphorus shells, flechettes, grenades, rockets, bazookas etc. the "chosens" dont discriminate whether you are 1 or 100 years old. in the end, another group of people known as "americans" end up paying for the mess. the end.

btw, just read link in my sig
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
Israel was created after WW2, because everyone felt bad for what happened to the Jews during said war.

The local Arabs of that land got pissed off and attempted to destroy Israel a few years later. Israel struck back (killing Americans as well; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident) and took over land that was never apart of the UN's resolution and acknowledgement of Israel as a nation. Israel controls that land, under the pretense that they need to, in order to ensure Israel is safe,... yet, settlements have been cropping up since they took over. It is not their land, and with the presence of Israelis, it proves security is not an issue - because if it was, Israel would have left that land desolate, with only their military presence.

Islamic extremists are constantly bemoaning the existence of Israel and are constantly striking out via rockets and suicided attacks. Each time something flairs up, Israel, lashed out and not only kills those who launched the attack; but anything near or close to it - much like the unfortunate men on the USS Liberty.

Also, Palestine has tried time and time again to become a nation - or be recognized as a nation by the UN. Each time, the USA vetos; http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/08/us-palestinians-israel-mitchell-idUSTRE78771O20110908, since such a thing would go against Israeli interests.

The Palestinians have been cornered time and time again, physically and politically. They have lost most of their land, and will continue to.
palestine-loss-of-land.jpg


And, when the loss of land is brought up, it is the same old arguments over and over again:
- let them go someplace else
- they brought it upon themselves
- there never was a Palestine

The Palestinians are treated as sub humans by the Israelis. And, we all know where this is headed; no Arab will own ANY land in the immediate boarders of Israel.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,390
470
126
lol sure you dont know. :sneaky:
let me explain in laymans terms. basically some brown people known as "the chosen ones" thought it would be cool to kill another group of brownies aka "non-chosen expendables" and steal their land. not just 'hey can i borrow yo land' and never give it back, but straight up decimate the place with bombs, guns, phosphorus shells, flechettes, grenades, rockets, bazookas etc. the "chosens" dont discriminate whether you are 1 or 100 years old. in the end, another group of people known as "americans" end up paying for the mess. the end.

btw, just read link in my sig

Hahaha nice try. The first Zionists were all white. They only started looking around for brown Jews when they realized they didn't have enough whites to fill the ranks of their military. Brown Jews lived in Palestine perfectly peacefully next to Brown Muslims before the Ashkenazi Zionists decided to show up and create their "homeland."

From the start it was all about a place to put the white jews of Europe after WWII who lost their property and found resistance at the end of the war attempting to get their belongings back. So one wrong rights another and the white Jews came to steal the land and homes of Brown people in Palestine.

The Brown Jews are a nice buffer and human shield for the White Jews. But problem is, the Brown Jews found out kinda late they were scammed by the White Jews who still want to be segregated from the Brown Jews neighborhoods and schools and White Jew who marries a Brown Jew in Israel is considered mentally ill. Used and discarded just like the Cherokee.
 
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Lepton87

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2009
2,544
9
81
This war is good for the world as a whole. It boosts the economy by creating the demand for all kinds of weapons it also serves as population control. It also should advance warfare technology. We need so much more such wars in the world. Especially in places where there's too much natural growth or not enough with aging society. Pensions are bad for the economy, why pay those people retirement pensions if we can send them as soldiers and benefit two-fold? First, we spur demand for weapons and create work-places in weapons factory. We all know that people past the productive age are bad for the economy, so why send young soldiers who could still benefit the economy if we can send people on retirement pensions? In economies where there's too much population growth, just send young people as soldiers and be done with the overpopulation problem. Let us send people who are near or past retirement to fight our carefully planed wars designed to get the rich richer and the poor poorer. Anyone with me?
War is such a great thing, it can fix things nothing else can.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
in 1948 with military power and backing the brittish gave the land to the current group of people who occupy it, with the backing of UN and the brittish military, they succesfully fought off everyone (moved the people that lived on the land prior to 1948) off of there lands, and established the 1948 borders.


fighting has ensued since then, now there is a semi incarcerated (Israeli controlled borders in and out, and in bordering Turkey) group, in a place called Gaza, they elected a group called Hamas, to control there government.. this group is a radical muslim jihadist group, they constantly lob rockets at Israel


Israel retalliates with much more might, kills a disproportionate amount of fighters and civilians


this has gone on since 1948

Pretty much this.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
9,453
8,863
136
My imaginary friend in the sky hates your imaginary friend in the sky, so I hate you also.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
Well, you did ask for a child's version of the situation.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,629
35,399
136
Folks are living on the land.
Abraham moves into the hood.
Israelites move to Egypt.
Israelites move back, slaughter everybody, steal land.
Assyria, Babylon, and Egypt come to call.
Ethiopians, Philistines, and Arabs come to call.
Persians show up, give Israel back to Israelites
Greeks come to call.
Greeks and Egyptian Greeks have issues
Maccabees get pissed, Israelites back on top
Romans come to call
Romans get pissed, send Israelites packing
Romans split up
Byzantines let Jews back in
Jews revolt, get squashed
The Persians come back, the Byzantines are like "no way Jose"
The Caliphs come to call
Other Caliphs show up, caliph on caliph action ensues
Egyptians are back in the saddle again
No wait, they're gone
No, they're back and put a Jew in charge
Turks show up
Crusaders show up
Mongols show up
Egypt's back then the Ottomans
Jews are back
French pass through
Egypt's back one more time
Arabs get pissed
Turks still here
French are back and the Brits show up
Arabs, Brits, and French kick Turk butt
More Jews in
Jews declare themselves top dog, the recent unpleasantness ensues
Here we are.
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
I know something about it being a holy land that Israel lost in the late 60s, and now they want it back? Why in the world can't they simply share the area?
How'd they lose it in the first place?

I am 100% sure this thread will blow up somehow, but I ask everyone that posts in it, post like a kid in elementary school is going to read it (no profanity, racial bias, personal attacks...)

After the holocaust, some leaders around the world had an idea to form a nation for Jewish people to be safe. Since the lands the Palestinians were living on was "decided" to be the new Jewish nation, they were rightfully pissed off. 70 some years later the children and grandchildren are still fighting each other, and there are two schools of thought on explaining what is going on in the present time:

either...
(1) People of the Jewish faith have become experts at playing the victim card manipulating the world so they can profit off foreign aid monies
(2) Neighboring Arab countries are using and manipulating the Palestinians to fight their political battles for them (similar to Russia & the Ukrainian rebels)

Both schools of thought suggest that the conflict will not be resolved anytime soon, as in each one side desires a prolonged conflict against the other.
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
in 1948 with military power and backing the brittish gave the land to the current group of people who occupy it, with the backing of UN and the brittish military, they succesfully fought off everyone (moved the people that lived on the land prior to 1948) off of there lands, and established the 1948 borders.
The UN and the British were Missing in action...if it was not for other countries offering support and arms things would have been a lot different...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/1948_War.html

Violence in the Holy Land broke out almost immediately after the United Nations announced partition on November 29, 1947. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood."1

Husseini's prediction began to come true after the UN announcement. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. By the end of the second week, 93 Arabs, 84 Jews and 7 Englishmen had been killed and scores injured. From November 30-February 1, 427 Arabs, 381 Jews and 46 British were killed and 1,035 Arabs, 725 Jews and 135 British were wounded. In March alone, 271 Jews and 257 Arabs died in Arab attacks and Jewish counter*attacks.2

The chairman of the Arab Higher Committee said the Arabs would "fight for every inch of their country."3 Two days later, the holy men of Al-Azhar University in Cairo called on the Muslim world to proclaim a jihad (holy war) against the Jews.4

The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approximately 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine. By February, the British said so many Arabs had infiltrated they lacked the forces to run them back.5 In fact, the British turned over bases and arms to Arab irregulars and the Arab Legion.


In the first phase of the war, lasting from November 29, 1947 until April 1, 1948, the Palestinian Arabs took the offensive, with help from volunteers from neighboring countries. The Jews suffered severe casualties and passage along most of their major roadways was disrupted.

On April 26, 1948, Transjordan's King Abdullah said:


[A]ll our efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem have failed. The only way left for us is war. I will have the pleasure and honor to save Palestine.7

On May 4, 1948, the Arab Legion attacked Kfar Etzion. The defenders drove them back, but the Legion returned a week later. After two days, the ill-equipped and outnumbered settlers were overwhelmed. Many defenders were massacred after they had surrendered.6 This was prior to the invasion by the regular Arab armies that followed Israel's declaration of independence.

Arabs Take Responsibility


The UN blamed the Arabs for the violence. The UN Palestine Commission was never permitted by the Arabs or British to go to Palestine to implement the resolution. On February 16, 1948, the Commission reported to the Security Council:


Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.8

The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948:


The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.9

The British commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb admitted:


Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman . . . They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine.10

Despite the disadvantages in numbers, organization and weapons, the Jews began to take the initiative in the weeks from April 1 until the declaration of independence on May 14. The Haganah captured several major towns including Tiberias and Haifa, and temporarily opened the road to Jerusalem.

The partition resolution was never suspended or rescinded. Thus, Israel, the Jewish State in Palestine, was born on May 14, as the British finally left the country. Five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq) immediately invaded Israel. Their intentions were declared by Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League: "It will be a war of annihilation. It will be a momentous massacre in history that will be talked about like the massacres of the Mongols or the Crusades."11


The United States, the Soviet Union and most other states immediately recognized Israel and indicted the Arabs. The United States urged a resolution charging the Arabs with breach of the peace.

Soviet delegate Andrei Gromyko told the Security Council, May 29, 1948:


This is not the first time that the Arab states, which organized the invasion of Palestine, have ignored a decision of the Security Council or of the General Assembly. The USSR delegation deems it essential that the council should state its opinion more clearly and more firmly with regard to this attitude of the Arab states toward decisions of the Security Council.12


The initial phase of the fighting ended after the Security Council threatened July 15 to cite the Arab governments for aggression under the Charter. By this time, the Haganah had been renamed the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and succeeded in stopping the Arab offensive.

The Bernadotte Plan


During the summer of 1948, Count Folke Bernadotte was sent by the UN to Palestine to mediate a truce and try to negotiate a settlement. Bernadotte's plan called for the Jewish State to relinquish the Negev and Jerusalem to Transjordan and to receive the western Galilee. This was similar to the boundaries that had been proposed prior to the partition vote, and had been rejected by all sides. Now, the proposal was being offered after the Arabs had gone to war to prevent partition and a Jewish state had been declared. The Jews and Arabs both rejected the plan.

Ironically, Bernadotte found little enthusiasm among the Arabs for independence. He wrote in his diary:


The Palestinian Arabs had at present no will of their own. Neither have they ever developed any specifically Palestinian nationalism. The demand for a separate Arab state in Palestine is consequently relatively weak. It would seem as though in existing circumstances most of the Palestinian Arabs would be quite content to be incorporated in Transjordan.13

The failure of the Bernadotte scheme came as the Jews began to have greater success in repelling the invading Arab forces and expanding control over territory outside the partition boundaries.

The Jews won their war of independence with minimal help from the West. In fact, they won despite efforts to undermine their military strength.

Although the United States vigorously supported the partition resolution, the State Department did not want to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves. "Otherwise," Undersecretary of State Robert Lovett argued, "the Arabs might use arms of U.S. origin against Jews, or Jews might use them against Arabs."14 Consequently, on December 5, 1947, the U.S. imposed an arms embargo on the region.


Many in the State Department saw the embargo as yet another means of obstructing partition. President Truman nevertheless went along with it hoping it would be a means of averting bloodshed. This was naive given Britain's rejection of Lovett's request to suspend weapons shipments to the Arabs and subsequent agreements to provide additional arms to Iraq and Transjordan.15

The Arabs had no difficulty obtaining all the arms they needed. In fact, Jordan's Arab Legion was armed and trained by the British, and led by a British officer. At the end of 1948 and beginning of 1949, British RAF planes flew with Egyptian squadrons over the Israel-Egypt border. On January 7, 1949, Israeli planes shot down four of the British aircraft.16

The Jews, on the other hand, were forced to smuggle weapons, principally from Czechoslovakia. When Israel declared its independence in May 1948, the army did not have a single cannon or tank. Its air force consisted of nine obsolete planes. Although the Haganah had 60,000 trained fighters, only 18,900 were fully mobilized, armed and prepared for war.17 On the eve of the war, chief of operations Yigael Yadin told David Ben-Gurion: "The best we can tell you is that we have a 50*50 chance."18


The Arab war to destroy Israel failed. Indeed, because of their aggression, the Arabs wound up with less territory than they would have had if they had accepted partition.

The cost to Israel, however, was enormous. "Many of its most productive fields lay gutted and mined. Its citrus groves, for decades the basis of the Yishuv's [Jewish community] economy, were largely destroyed."19 Military expenditures totaled approximately $500 million. Worse yet, 6,373 Israelis were killed, nearly one percent of the Jewish population of 650,000.

Had the West enforced the partition resolution or given the Jews the capacity to defend themselves, many lives might have been saved.

The Arab countries signed armistice agreements with Israel in 1949, starting with Egypt (Feb. 24), followed by Lebanon (March 23), Jordan (April 3) and Syria (July 20). Iraq was the only country that did not sign an agreement with Israel, choosing instead to withdraw its troops and hand over its sector to Jordan's Arab Legion.

**************************** Very interesting the Israeli Air force...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli_Air_Force

Preceded by the Sherut Avir, the air wing of the Haganah, the Israeli Air Force was officially formed on May 28, 1948, shortly after Israel declared statehood and found itself under immediate attack. At first, it was assembled from a hodge-podge collection of civilian aircraft commandeered or donated and converted to military use. A variety of obsolete and surplus ex-World War II combat aircraft were quickly sourced by various means – both legal and illegal – to supplement this fleet. The backbone of the IAF consisted of 25 Avia S-199s (purchased from Czechoslovakia, essentially Czechoslovak-built Messerschmitt Bf 109s) and 62 Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk IXEs ferried from Žatec base code-named "Zebra" where pilots also received preliminary flight training. Creativity and resourcefulness were the early foundations of Israeli military success in the air, rather than technology (which, at the inception of the IAF, was generally inferior to that used by Israel's adversaries). Many of the first IAF's pilots in 1948 were foreign volunteers (both Jewish and non-Jewish) and World War II veterans, who wanted to collaborate with Israel's struggle for its independence. The IAF's humble beginnings made its first air victories particularly impressive and noteworthy. Similarly the Air Transport Command begun its existence as the Panamanian registered Lineos Aeros de Panama Society Anonyme or LAPSA acquired C-46 and C-47 aircraft.[4]


P-51D at the Israeli Air Force Museum; the marking beneath the cockpit notes its participation in the wire-cutting operation at the onset of the Suez Crisis.
Israel's new fighter arm first went into action on May 29, 1948, assisting the efforts to halt the Egyptian advance from Gaza northwards. Four newly arrived Avia S-199s, flown by Lou Lenart, Modi Alon, Ezer Weizman and Eddie Cohen, struck Egyptian forces near Isdud. Although damage was minimal, two aircraft were lost and Cohen killed, the attack nevertheless achieved its goal and the Egyptians stopped. The Avias were back in action on May 30, attacking Jordanian forces near Tulkarem, losing another aircraft in the process.[5][6] The Israeli Air Force scored its first aerial victories on June 3, when Modi Alon, flying an Avia S-199 (probably D-106[7]), shot down a pair of Egyptian Air Force DC-3s which had just bombed Tel Aviv.[6][8][9] The first dogfight against enemy fighters took place a few days later, on June 8, when Gideon Lichtaman shot down an Egyptian Spitfire.[10] As the war progressed, more and more aircraft were procured, including Boeing B-17s,[11] Bristol Beaufighters, de Havilland Mosquitoes and P-51D Mustangs, leading to a shift in the balance of power. Although the IAF had never secured complete aerial supremacy, by the end of the war it had proven decisive in the air.[12][13]
 
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Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
Two sets of people who can't compromise over their favourite flying spaghetti monsters.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
3,622
0
0
If you're a child, this is all you would really understand...but even a 5 year old could understand they wouldn't want to be the yellow-land people.

Well the yellow people would have been a great friends with Green people except the yellow people wanted all the green tea. So the yellow people started started fighting and killing green people

and it went downhill from there
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,774
0
76
Well the yellow people would have been a great friends with Green people except the yellow people wanted all the green tea. So the yellow people started started fighting and killing green people

and it went downhill from there

That's racist.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
After the holocaust, some leaders around the world had an idea to form a nation for Jewish people to be safe. Since the lands the Palestinians were living on was "decided" to be the new Jewish nation, they were rightfully pissed off. 70 some years later the children and grandchildren are still fighting each other, and there are two schools of thought on explaining what is going on in the present time:

either...
(1) People of the Jewish faith have become experts at playing the victim card manipulating the world so they can profit off foreign aid monies
(2) Neighboring Arab countries are using and manipulating the Palestinians to fight their political battles for them (similar to Russia & the Ukrainian rebels)

Both schools of thought suggest that the conflict will not be resolved anytime soon, as in each one side desires a prolonged conflict against the other.

Bullshit. Did you know that by the end of WWII roughly 1/3 of the people living in Israel / Palestine were Jewish and that they had all purchased their land freely from the Arab owners? Probably not because you're an anti-semitic asshole.

(edit: Obviously this percentage was much higher in the UN proposed Israel and lower in the proposed Arab state which was what enabled the patrician plan.)
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,298
10,443
136
Well, the OP was framed in terms that belie a misunderstanding of the situation. "Beef" just doesn't apply to the Middle East in general. People do not "get along," historically. There has been rivalry going on there for millenia. Arabs do not get along with arabs, there are many factions and tribal schisms. Jews? Well, they are more problematical to arabs than even rival arabs, so what do you expect? Peace and harmony? Those terms are practically anathema in the area. That's my take on it in a nutshell.

I may be wrong, and I presume I can be shown to be wrong because I am not particularly knowledgable about the area, in any case I will say that conflict appears to be the norm in the Middle East.
 
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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Europeans fucked the Jews, then they used the Jews to fuck the Palestinians.
Palestinians and Arabs blame Jews, attack.
Jews decisively defeat Palestinians/Arabs and take more land as a buffer zone.
Palestinians blame Jews, attack.
Jews decisively defeat Palestinians and occupy Palestinian land.
Palestinians blame Jews, attack.
Jews decisively defeat Palestinians and quarantine Palestinian land.
Palestinians blame Jews, attack...

And so on and so forth. Basically we've got two ideologically entrenched foes, and the only one willing to completely wipe out the other (Hamas) is woefully incapable of doing so. So this is going to go on until the Israelis leave, the Palestinians grow up, or one side commits some massive war crime and the international community finally intervenes. We're probably going to see the 3rd option sooner or later.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Bullshit. Did you know that by the end of WWII roughly 1/3 of the people living in Israel / Palestine were Jewish and that they had all purchased their land freely from the Arab owners? Probably not because you're an anti-semitic asshole.

(edit: Obviously this percentage was much higher in the UN proposed Israel and lower in the proposed Arab state which was what enabled the patrician plan.)

Wow are you extra pissy this morning! I never claim to be an expert scholar on the formation of Israel. You also clearly have a limited short-term memory if you believe I'm one of the forum's anti-semitic asshole's.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel
http://archive.adl.org/israel/record/creation.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel