Serious question about mormons

[nageov3t]

All the Mormons I've ever met have been really big into converting other people, especially other Christians. it really turned me off to the whole community.

plus, no smoking, drinking, caffeine or chocolate would kill me, not to mention the "special" underwear :Q

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Yax
So being a not so devoted christian, I haven't been going to church, but lately, I've been thinking about which church would be good and of all the church goers that I've met, I think the mormans have some of the nicest people. I'm thinking about giving that church a try.

I do have one question. Some people don't like mormans. I'm curious as to your reasons. Oh, please don't flame. If you're an athiest, then I already know your reason so you don't need to lecture me about how they're trying to push their beliefs onto you. I'm just interested in people who do go to church. What are some of the goods and bads?

I'd suggest you read the following information:

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

to cintinue my time with the mic:

A perfect example of what I originally said, ask members themselves or read the Book of Mormon to find out what the religion is about, not people who have been excommunicated and are jaded in their view of the religion.

Would you ask a member of greenpeace how a nuclear reactor runs instead of an engineer? hmmmm

I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for admitting that I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but that should be expected for the intolerance and ignorance being displayed by members of ATOT

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: CRXican
religion is a crutch for the weak

man at least finish the quote

religion is a crutch for the weak, people who have no balls to face life with all of its challenges

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: loki8481
All the Mormons I've ever met have been really big into converting other people, especially other Christians. it really turned me off to the whole community.

plus, no smoking, drinking, caffeine or chocolate would kill me, not to mention the "special" underwear :Q

Yes - underwear is always and obstacle. lol - j/k

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: loki8481
All the Mormons I've ever met have been really big into converting other people, especially other Christians. it really turned me off to the whole community.

plus, no smoking, drinking, caffeine or chocolate would kill me, not to mention the "special" underwear :Q

Same can be said for many of the "christians" I've met.

I've never heard any of the LDS people I know speak poorly of other religions, but I have heard many, many so-called "Christians" bash other religions, including LDS.

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: FlyLice

Originally posted by: FoBoT

Originally posted by: Yax
Some people don't like mormans.

a lot of people don't like them, in fact the group that seems to hate them the most are other Christians, especially "fundamentalist" or "evangelical" Christians

many churches/pastors actively campaign against them with inaccurate/false information

Just like how Mormons campaign for themselves with inaccurate/false information?

Please, this one is just hilarious
I'm sure that every member of any religion that you are a part of is perfect and never presents innaccuracies about your religion. Study the material presented by the religion, find a set of missionaries to ask questions and make your own decision. If you look at a handful of people, you might be looking at the person who is a complete imbecile/fanatic when it comes to the religion in question. I'll gladly answer anything you think that is being presenting as innaccurate and false and I will do my best to explain.

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: rhino56
the moromons have this thing where they write down names on a piece of paper of people who are dead. like their grandparents, they research as far back as they can. and they go to the temple and get baptised for those people, and you must have full submersion in the water or it wont take.
those are some of the most brainwashed people in the world today.

i believe in God, but not because people have told me of him, but because his wonders have been made known to me.

i suggest you do some research into what religion you join before you join.
try searching for differences between christians and mormons on the net.
youll be suprised what they do believe.

We do have an ordinance that is being described above but the innacurate portion is that 'it won't take'. It is much different than this and has something to do with the freedom of choice for whom the ordinance is being performed. Again, please do full research before presenting something as fact. This topic would require a lot of time to discuss the full reasons behind it. But, for a short answer that will probably create more questions than it answers, read Malachi in the Bible. And, of course, for a full explanation, please do research.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: RaDragon
Out of curiosity, there are 12 major denominations of Christians, not including the smaller churches -- why go with a non-Christian church?

Your statement is simply ignorant. The Mormons are Christian.

Originally posted by: FlyLice
Covenant is between Man and God. The Church is within your heart.

The Bible also warns of false prophets. The definition of false prophet is one who contacts God through an angel (or not directly with God Himself?). True prophets have direct contact with God. I believe Mormon was started by a guy (forget his name, too lazy to look up) who was contacted by an angel. Mohammed (of Islam) was also contacted by an angel, not directly with God.

Really? And where does the Bible say that? Oh, that's right, it doesn't. And many prophets from the Old Testament were contracted through angels. Regardless, Joseph Smith claims to have had direct contact with God.

Originally posted by: whattaguy
Mormonism - based on what man needs to do; legalism
Christianity - based on what God has already completed through Jesus; grace

Matthew 7:21 - ?Not everyone who says to me, ?Lord, Lord,? will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
James 2:26 - As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


So much hatred and ignorance about Mormons here. I can see that, and I'm not even Mormon.

 

[Hammer]

mechjinx:

please post your beliefs on the life of smith and also on the people in the pre-columbian americas.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: rahvin
I'd suggest you read the following information:

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

to cintinue my time with the mic:

A perfect example of what I originally said, ask members themselves or read the Book of Mormon to find out what the religion is about, not people who have been excommunicated and are jaded in their view of the religion.

Would you ask a member of greenpeace how a nuclear reactor runs instead of an engineer? hmmmm

I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for admitting that I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but that should be expected for the intolerance and ignorance being displayed by members of ATOT

Exactly the response I expected. :thumbsup:

Not only did you pull the church indoctrinated "don't listen to anyone outside the church, even if it's true" but you even through in a statement that you will be persecuted for your beliefs. Met the expectations to a T. :thumbsup:

 

[SaltBoy]

Those freakin' Mormons, always wanting me to play the organ every week. GOSH!

 

[spiderrasmon]

just ask yourself this one question about a religion...

are there any black/asian/[insert ethnic,racial group here] folk in it?

if not, likely it's a sign that it's not the real deal.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: rahvin
Exactly the response I expected. :thumbsup:

Not only did you pull the church indoctrinated "don't listen to anyone outside the church, even if it's true" but you even through in a statement that you will be persecuted for your beliefs. Met the expectations to a T. :thumbsup:

:roll:

Such behavior is no different than would be displayed by any member of a organized group with specific, when those beliefs are attacked by lies and ignorance. He does not have to justify his beliefs against your BS, nor should he IMO. The 1st Amendment is still place last I checked.
Especially as you resorted to attacking the person and not the argument, which met my expectations to a T.

 

[Carazariah]

Originally posted by: Yax
So being a not so devoted christian, I haven't been going to church, but lately, I've been thinking about which church would be good and of all the church goers that I've met, I think the mormans have some of the nicest people. I'm thinking about giving that church a try.

I do have one question. Some people don't like mormans. I'm curious as to your reasons. Oh, please don't flame. If you're an athiest, then I already know your reason so you don't need to lecture me about how they're trying to push their beliefs onto you. I'm just interested in people who do go to church. What are some of the goods and bads?

Okay directly from LDS or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints . . . More commonly called Mormons.
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1082-1,00.html
(Basic Beliefs)

Counter arguments

http://www.equip.org/free/CP0303.htm (On the Diety and Identity of Jesus Christ )
http://www.equip.org/free/CP0304.htm (On Salvation)

These are the links to the source. I agree, the Mormons that I personally have met are some of the nicest and most polite people I know. Their moral code and dedication to service are examples to us all. However, I don't agree with all of their beliefs nor the historical version of Joseph's Smith's founding of Mormonism it just doesn't quite ring true to me.

What I agree with them about:
A. The Bible is the Word of God and is divinely inspired to provide wisdom, example and guidance to bring all of us to a relationship with Jesus Christ.
B. Jesus Christ is God's Son the Savior of the World
C. Atonement was made through the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the Sins of the World.
D. Each person accepts this sacrifice by Believing in Jesus Christ.

What I disagree with them about:
A. The Book of Morman is equally as inspired as the Bible and is God's divine word through the Prophet Joseph Smith.
B. The stipulation on the divinely inspired part of the Bible (as far as it is translated correctly) http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1598-1,00.html
C. The stipulation on works being a prerequisite to maintaining Salvation. Eph: 2:8-10 Works are an expression of the Love we have for God, but aren't a requirement, or we would have to continually earn our Salvation, and since "For it is by grace you have been saved, it is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, Not by Works lest anyone should boast."


A link to a list of beliefs that I would more completely agree with

http://www.saddleback.com/flash/believe.html (Overview)
http://www.saddleback.com/flash/believe2.html (Detail with Verses)

And per your stipulation yes I attend Church services on a weekly basis:

Hopefully this is of some help. . .
C

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: FlyLice
Then, according to his own account (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History 1:29-54), he was paid a bedside visit by the angel Moroni in 1823. Moroni, who professed to be the glorified son of a man named Mormon (who had been dead 1400 years), told Joe about a book of golden plates which contained "the fulness of the everlasting Gospel." This book was said to have been buried at Cumorah Hill, near Palmyra, New York, some 1400 years earlier by the man named Mormon. Four years later (1827), Joe supposedly dug up the golden plates along with a gigantic pair of spectacles which he called "the Urim and Thummim." The spectacles were for translating the hieroglyphics on the plates. With the help of his only legal wife and a friend named Oliver Cowdery, Joe translated the plates and published the Book of Mormon in 1830. Later that same year, Joe, his wife, his brothers (Hyrum and Samuel), and Cowdery established the "Church of Jesus Christ," which is known today as the "Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints."

The Book of Mormon contains many plagiarisms of the King James English (at least 25,000 words). This is strange since the plates were supposed to have been in the ground many centuries before the King James Bible was completed in 1611! The Book of Mormon also contains many errors such as claims of elephants in the Western Hemisphere and advanced metal producing capabilities in America before 400 A.D. (See Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults for a fine study in the errors of the Mormon Bible)

The Mormons, under Smith's command, turned out to be a rough bunch. Joe was a polygamist with at least twenty- seven wives (some say over 60 wives). The whole gang left New York for Ohio, and then moved to Missouri. The Missouri governor ran them out of the state, so they settled in Nauvoo, Illinois, and built the state's largest city. In 1844, Joe and Hyrum were thrown in jail. Then an angry mob stormed the jail and murdered them both. Naturally, this "martyrdom" insured the perpetual reverence of the great "prop

Ahhh, this one is just classic, read some anti-mormon literture for this stuff, I'll bet.
Moroni is the son of Mormon. Mormon and Moroni lived on the American continent circa 400-500AD. Moroni compiled the writings of his people into what is known now as "The Book of Mormon" on gold plates and buried them in what is now the vincinity of Palmyra, NY at the direction of God. Joseph Smith, after many previous events, was lead to these plates by Moroni (now an angel, having passed away near 500AD). For a complete recounting, read the introduction to The Book of Mormon and Church History.

There are no references to elephants in the Book of Mormon. There is a reference to pack animals (I forget the name) but these are not elephants. I would be interested to see where you obtained this information.

I would interested why you called the Church a rough bunch under Joseph? They were persecuted because of Jospeh's insistence that he had a vision in which he spoke with God and Jesus Christ. So, in defending themselves, they are labelled a 'rough bunch'? Just curious about your definition here because I'm sure this is a point of view thing that can be argued all day long.

Again, please read information by members of the religion, not just ex-members or members of other religions.

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: spiderrasmon
just ask yourself this one question about a religion...

are there any black/asian/[insert ethnic,racial group here] folk in it?

if not, likely it's a sign that it's not the real deal.

There are. It's just a fact that there is a very small ethnic minority in Utah where most LDS stereotypes are conjured up.

They are not precluded in anyway from joining.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: FlyLice
Then, according to his own account (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History 1:29-54), he was paid a bedside visit by the angel Moroni in 1823. Moroni, who professed to be the glorified son of a man named Mormon (who had been dead 1400 years), told Joe about a book of golden plates which contained "the fulness of the everlasting Gospel." This book was said to have been buried at Cumorah Hill, near Palmyra, New York, some 1400 years earlier by the man named Mormon. Four years later (1827), Joe supposedly dug up the golden plates along with a gigantic pair of spectacles which he called "the Urim and Thummim." The spectacles were for translating the hieroglyphics on the plates. With the help of his only legal wife and a friend named Oliver Cowdery, Joe translated the plates and published the Book of Mormon in 1830. Later that same year, Joe, his wife, his brothers (Hyrum and Samuel), and Cowdery established the "Church of Jesus Christ," which is known today as the "Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints."

The Book of Mormon contains many plagiarisms of the King James English (at least 25,000 words). This is strange since the plates were supposed to have been in the ground many centuries before the King James Bible was completed in 1611! The Book of Mormon also contains many errors such as claims of elephants in the Western Hemisphere and advanced metal producing capabilities in America before 400 A.D. (See Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults for a fine study in the errors of the Mormon Bible)

The Mormons, under Smith's command, turned out to be a rough bunch. Joe was a polygamist with at least twenty- seven wives (some say over 60 wives). The whole gang left New York for Ohio, and then moved to Missouri. The Missouri governor ran them out of the state, so they settled in Nauvoo, Illinois, and built the state's largest city. In 1844, Joe and Hyrum were thrown in jail. Then an angry mob stormed the jail and murdered them both. Naturally, this "martyrdom" insured the perpetual reverence of the great "prop

Ahhh, this one is just classic, read some anti-mormon literture for this stuff, I'll bet.
Moroni is the son of Mormon. Mormon and Moroni lived on the American continent circa 400-500AD. Moroni compiled the writings of his people into what is known now as "The Book of Mormon" on gold plates and buried them in what is now the vincinity of Palmyra, NY at the direction of God. Joseph Smith, after many previous events, was lead to these plates by Moroni (now an angel, having passed away near 500AD). For a complete recounting, read the introduction to The Book of Mormon and Church History.

There are no references to elephants in the Book of Mormon. There is a reference to pack animals (I forget the name) but these are not elephants. I would be interested to see where you obtained this information.

I would interested why you called the Church a rough bunch under Joseph? They were persecuted because of Jospeh's insistence that he had a vision in which he spoke with God and Jesus Christ. So, in defending themselves, they are labelled a 'rough bunch'? Just curious about your definition here because I'm sure this is a point of view thing that can be argued all day long.

Again, please read information by members of the religion, not just ex-members or members of other religions.

My definition of crazy :thumbsup:

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: spiderrasmon
just ask yourself this one question about a religion...

are there any black/asian/[insert ethnic,racial group here] folk in it?

if not, likely it's a sign that it's not the real deal.

as a matter of fact yes there are black and asians in it. How does having them make it the real deal?


As a matter of fact the guy that got me into the church was from Korea. He was in the church and while over having lunch they elders droped by. No he did nto set me up. he even tried to get them to leave.

 

[conjur]

Before you go considering any religion, I highly recommend you read Who Wrote The Bible? by Richard Elliott Friedman and also From Jesus to Christianity: How Four Generations of Visionaries and Storytellers Created the New Testament and Christian Faith by L. Michael White

Learn what the Bible *really* says before you jump into a religion that distorts its writings.

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: FlyLice
Then, according to his own account (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History 1:29-54), he was paid a bedside visit by the angel Moroni in 1823. Moroni, who professed to be the glorified son of a man named Mormon (who had been dead 1400 years), told Joe about a book of golden plates which contained "the fulness of the everlasting Gospel." This book was said to have been buried at Cumorah Hill, near Palmyra, New York, some 1400 years earlier by the man named Mormon. Four years later (1827), Joe supposedly dug up the golden plates along with a gigantic pair of spectacles which he called "the Urim and Thummim." The spectacles were for translating the hieroglyphics on the plates. With the help of his only legal wife and a friend named Oliver Cowdery, Joe translated the plates and published the Book of Mormon in 1830. Later that same year, Joe, his wife, his brothers (Hyrum and Samuel), and Cowdery established the "Church of Jesus Christ," which is known today as the "Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints."

The Book of Mormon contains many plagiarisms of the King James English (at least 25,000 words). This is strange since the plates were supposed to have been in the ground many centuries before the King James Bible was completed in 1611! The Book of Mormon also contains many errors such as claims of elephants in the Western Hemisphere and advanced metal producing capabilities in America before 400 A.D. (See Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults for a fine study in the errors of the Mormon Bible)

The Mormons, under Smith's command, turned out to be a rough bunch. Joe was a polygamist with at least twenty- seven wives (some say over 60 wives). The whole gang left New York for Ohio, and then moved to Missouri. The Missouri governor ran them out of the state, so they settled in Nauvoo, Illinois, and built the state's largest city. In 1844, Joe and Hyrum were thrown in jail. Then an angry mob stormed the jail and murdered them both. Naturally, this "martyrdom" insured the perpetual reverence of the great "prop

Ahhh, this one is just classic, read some anti-mormon literture for this stuff, I'll bet.
Moroni is the son of Mormon. Mormon and Moroni lived on the American continent circa 400-500AD. Moroni compiled the writings of his people into what is known now as "The Book of Mormon" on gold plates and buried them in what is now the vincinity of Palmyra, NY at the direction of God. Joseph Smith, after many previous events, was lead to these plates by Moroni (now an angel, having passed away near 500AD). For a complete recounting, read the introduction to The Book of Mormon and Church History.

There are no references to elephants in the Book of Mormon. There is a reference to pack animals (I forget the name) but these are not elephants. I would be interested to see where you obtained this information.

I would interested why you called the Church a rough bunch under Joseph? They were persecuted because of Jospeh's insistence that he had a vision in which he spoke with God and Jesus Christ. So, in defending themselves, they are labelled a 'rough bunch'? Just curious about your definition here because I'm sure this is a point of view thing that can be argued all day long.

Again, please read information by members of the religion, not just ex-members or members of other religions.

My definition of crazy :thumbsup:

Yeah, because burning bushes that speak and people magically parting seas and people saving 2 of every animal to repopulate the earth after a devastating flood are so much more sane beliefs... :roll:

I wish I knew more about Islam, and the asian religions because I'm sure they would contain similar "far out" or "crazy" beliefs.

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: FlyLice

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: FlyLice
Covenant is between Man and God. The Church is within your heart.

The Bible also warns of false prophets. The definition of false prophet is one who contacts God through an angel (or not directly with God Himself?). True prophets have direct contact with God. I believe Mormon was started by a guy (forget his name, too lazy to look up) who was contacted by an angel. Mohammed (of Islam) was also contacted by an angel, not directly with God.

His name was Joseph Smith, I believe.
But the rest of your stuff sounds like somewhat specific religious beliefs.

Joseph Smith found plates in the forest or something that was in Egyptian and contained the true words of God. I dunno how anyone can believe in Mormonism considering this is how it started. It sounds like the guy was just in it to make a church and make lots of money.

I think there's a great South Park episode that shows how Joseph Smith started Mormonism.

And didn't these plates miraculously disappear or something?

I don't like them because they are just as bad as Jehova's witnesses. I don't come to your house and try and convert you, what gives them the privileges to do this to me?

Plus, the whole my body is my temple and I can't pollute it crap....

Sorry, but God did not say you could not drink coffee and soda.

Not to mention that each Mormom is required to make a 2 year pilgrimage out in the world where all they do is try and convert others...

<---raised Southern Baptist, now agnostic

The plates were given to Moroni after Joseph finished translating them.

You are more than welcome to slam the door in the face of the missionaries, they are used to it I had my fair share of doors slammed in my face on my mission. It comes with the territory. You do not have to listen, you don't even have to answer the door. In fact, you can chase off your property with a gun if you'd like(happened to me once, fun story). I promise most missionaries won't hold a grudge against you

Well, you don;t have to believe the whole body is a temple, but you should try living without drugs, alcohol, etc and see how healthy you will feel. j/k

Members are not required to go on a mission, you are strongly encouraged, yes, but I have 2 brothers and a sister that did not go and are active members in good standing

Please feel free to ask questions and I'll do my best to answer them or admit it if I do not know.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: rahvin
Exactly the response I expected. :thumbsup:

Not only did you pull the church indoctrinated "don't listen to anyone outside the church, even if it's true" but you even through in a statement that you will be persecuted for your beliefs. Met the expectations to a T. :thumbsup:

:roll:

Such behavior is no different than would be displayed by any member of a organized group with specific, when those beliefs are attacked by lies and ignorance. He does not have to justify his beliefs against your BS, nor should he IMO. The 1st Amendment is still place last I checked.
Especially as you resorted to attacking the person and not the argument, which met my expectations to a T.

Also 100% meeting expectations. For someone that claims to not be a member you have been an adamant defender of the faith in every thread posted. Although I didn't expect you to call historical fact "lies and ignorance" as you usually just ignore my links completely.

 

[DougK62]

I can't believe so many of you "Christians" in here ragging on the Mormons. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

OBVIOUSLY you don't agree with what they teach - if you did you'd be a Mormon too. There's no need to be little bitches about it.

The Mormons are a nice bunch of people. Just do your own thing and let them do theirs in peace.

RELAX.

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: whattaguy
Mormonism - based on what man needs to do; legalism
Christianity - based on what God has already completed through Jesus; grace

The name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We believe that the only way back to God is through what Jesus has already accomplished; grace

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: FlyLice
Then, according to his own account (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History 1:29-54), he was paid a bedside visit by the angel Moroni in 1823. Moroni, who professed to be the glorified son of a man named Mormon (who had been dead 1400 years), told Joe about a book of golden plates which contained "the fulness of the everlasting Gospel." This book was said to have been buried at Cumorah Hill, near Palmyra, New York, some 1400 years earlier by the man named Mormon. Four years later (1827), Joe supposedly dug up the golden plates along with a gigantic pair of spectacles which he called "the Urim and Thummim." The spectacles were for translating the hieroglyphics on the plates. With the help of his only legal wife and a friend named Oliver Cowdery, Joe translated the plates and published the Book of Mormon in 1830. Later that same year, Joe, his wife, his brothers (Hyrum and Samuel), and Cowdery established the "Church of Jesus Christ," which is known today as the "Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints."

The Book of Mormon contains many plagiarisms of the King James English (at least 25,000 words). This is strange since the plates were supposed to have been in the ground many centuries before the King James Bible was completed in 1611! The Book of Mormon also contains many errors such as claims of elephants in the Western Hemisphere and advanced metal producing capabilities in America before 400 A.D. (See Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults for a fine study in the errors of the Mormon Bible)

The Mormons, under Smith's command, turned out to be a rough bunch. Joe was a polygamist with at least twenty- seven wives (some say over 60 wives). The whole gang left New York for Ohio, and then moved to Missouri. The Missouri governor ran them out of the state, so they settled in Nauvoo, Illinois, and built the state's largest city. In 1844, Joe and Hyrum were thrown in jail. Then an angry mob stormed the jail and murdered them both. Naturally, this "martyrdom" insured the perpetual reverence of the great "prop

Ahhh, this one is just classic, read some anti-mormon literture for this stuff, I'll bet.
Moroni is the son of Mormon. Mormon and Moroni lived on the American continent circa 400-500AD. Moroni compiled the writings of his people into what is known now as "The Book of Mormon" on gold plates and buried them in what is now the vincinity of Palmyra, NY at the direction of God. Joseph Smith, after many previous events, was lead to these plates by Moroni (now an angel, having passed away near 500AD). For a complete recounting, read the introduction to The Book of Mormon and Church History.

There are no references to elephants in the Book of Mormon. There is a reference to pack animals (I forget the name) but these are not elephants. I would be interested to see where you obtained this information.

I would interested why you called the Church a rough bunch under Joseph? They were persecuted because of Jospeh's insistence that he had a vision in which he spoke with God and Jesus Christ. So, in defending themselves, they are labelled a 'rough bunch'? Just curious about your definition here because I'm sure this is a point of view thing that can be argued all day long.

Again, please read information by members of the religion, not just ex-members or members of other religions.

My definition of crazy :thumbsup:

Yeah, because burning bushes that speak and people magically parting seas and people saving 2 of every animal to repopulate the earth after a devastating flood are so much more sane beliefs... :roll:

I wish I knew more about Islam, and the asian religions because I'm sure they would contain similar "far out" or "crazy" beliefs.

That's crazy IMHO too