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Separation of church and state on birth control

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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,810
2,921
126
If the purpose of the policy was to oppress the Catholics and deny their religious freedoms, then the president did indeed fail.

If, however, the purpose was to ensure insurance coverage for contraception, that end has not changed.
That's how sinister Obama is. Clearly his War on Religion is so subtle that it isn't a War at all! Oh the humanity!!! :eek:
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
8,990
84
91
Since he is catholic, he should be against the rulling, as he has to follow the lead of his church. That simply shows what I was saying prior to Obama giving in, which was that Obama had to give in or else risk losing the Catholic vote.

A VP should not publically disagree with the P, but privately is an entirely different ballgame. They should argue (in a friendly way) over points of importance.
No, he doesn't, but it does offer an explanation. I myself am Catholic, but disagree with the official 'Catholic' position. There are many more like me in the church. Catholics do not vote as a block. There is no Catholic vote per se....no matter what the USCCB may boast.

On your last paragraph, we must agree to disagree.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,121
13,062
136
That's how sinister Obama is. Clearly his War on Religion is so subtle that it isn't a War at all! Oh the humanity!!! :eek:
Kinda like Wayne LaPierre's rant about Obama not banning guns to ban guns... It's Islamo-fascist Kenyan voodoo time warp mind control, I tell ya- The End Times for America!
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
25,065
9,939
136
Kinda like Wayne LaPierre's rant about Obama not banning guns to ban guns... It's Islamo-fascist Kenyan voodoo time warp mind control, I tell ya- The End Times for America!
Advance notice for your trademark lawyers, I'm going to steal this one :)
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,423
614
126
so free birth control? so is the gooberment paying back the insurance companies for making them provide free birth control?
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,423
614
126
Condoms are available over the counter. If you had to make a doctor's appointment to get an Rx for them, and then hope that your insurance policy covers them so that they won't break the bank, then yeah, I'd agree. If BC pills were as available as condoms, this entire issue would be moot.
you understand why bc pills are not over the counter right?
 

Gunslinger08

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
13,236
2
71
I'm having a tough time with this issue. I don't think that anything is ever as cut and dry as the media or as posters here want to make it. Sorry for the rambling here, I'm just thinking out loud.

I don't think that the government should be in the business of telling insurance companies or employers which coverage they must provide, but I do think some type of regulation needs to occur so that they can't collude to provide inferior coverage. Standard free market principles need to apply, with the smallest amount of government regulation that ensures it stays a free market.

Obviously, healthcare insurance for a majority of people in America is subsidized by their employer. Typically, in a free market, you give your money to the provider of a good or service that best fits your needs (both in features/functionality and in price) - the providers have to compete to get your business. The problem with employer subsidized healthcare is that the true consumer of the service (the employee) isn't the one directly paying for it (the employer), so free market forces don't work exactly right. Sure, employers have to compete for employees and so they get pushed to offer better benefits, but switching employers (especially now) is much riskier and more difficult than switching grocery stores or gas stations. I'm not 100% sure of how to fix this. You need to somehow put the buying power/money back into the consumers hands. I'm not sure how to accomplish this - I'm not an economist.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
25,065
9,939
136
so free birth control? so is the gooberment paying back the insurance companies for making them provide free birth control?
It's cheaper in the end for everyone including insurance companies instead of paying for unintended pregnancies.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,051
6,028
136
so free birth control? so is the gooberment paying back the insurance companies for making them provide free birth control?
It's cheaper in the end for everyone including insurance companies instead of paying for unintended pregnancies.
Seriously, OutHouse. What do you think costs the insurance company more, lifetime supply of BC pills or 1 child from birth to 18 26?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,527
18,079
136
so free birth control? so is the gooberment paying back the insurance companies for making them provide free birth control?

??????????

This is a major win for Insurance companies, and they are those in the front supporting it. Much cheaper for them if people have easy access to birth control.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,527
18,079
136
I don't think that the government should be in the business of telling insurance companies or employers which coverage they must provide, but I do think some type of regulation needs to occur so that they can't collude to provide inferior coverage. Standard free market principles need to apply, with the smallest amount of government regulation that ensures it stays a free market.
Oh how poisoned our collective mind has been when ti comes to political issues.

Insurance companies want to provide BC. the government wants them to do it.

a small interest group is crying foul. republicans are latching on to their complaints because they think it is a new anti-Obama angle. Odd, because they are effectively arguing that BC--something that everyone in this country uses--should be verboten.

Republicans are proving more and more that they have devolved into some mindless rabble with no known goals--political, social goals, that is. All they can see is "deny deny; assume Obama is always wrong."

it is this kind of thinking that creates people like Spidey--the true threat to making this country actually work for once.

Not surprising, though, from the party of "government doesn't work!" Whenever they come into power, they deregulated, defund, and completely cripple infrustructre to completely ensure that government doesn't work. it's clever, in a way--prove your argument by forcing the issue. See! there's no more money for roads and education, of course government is failing you!

What's that, silver iodide in your drinking water?? Well, the EPA wasn't around to prevent those assholes from dumping it into the water supply, be/c we cut their budget in half and manpower by 75%! Government doesn't work! We make sure that it never will!

:D
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Religious organization wants to step into the private sector then it must obey the same rules as everyone else. Don't like it then go away. This has zero to do with religious freedoms.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,121
13,062
136
Oh how poisoned our collective mind has been when ti comes to political issues.

Insurance companies want to provide BC. the government wants them to do it.

a small interest group is crying foul. republicans are latching on to their complaints because they think it is a new anti-Obama angle. Odd, because they are effectively arguing that BC--something that everyone in this country uses--should be verboten.

Republicans are proving more and more that they have devolved into some mindless rabble with no known goals--political, social goals, that is. All they can see is "deny deny; assume Obama is always wrong."

it is this kind of thinking that creates people like Spidey--the true threat to making this country actually work for once.

Not surprising, though, from the party of "government doesn't work!" Whenever they come into power, they deregulated, defund, and completely cripple infrustructre to completely ensure that government doesn't work. it's clever, in a way--prove your argument by forcing the issue. See! there's no more money for roads and education, of course government is failing you!

What's that, silver iodide in your drinking water?? Well, the EPA wasn't around to prevent those assholes from dumping it into the water supply, be/c we cut their budget in half and manpower by 75%! Government doesn't work! We make sure that it never will!

:D
Repubs claim govt is incompetent, and when they're running it, it is- a self fulfilling prophesy in support of their "smaller govt!" meme.

Their ultra wealthy backers want it that way, because the only power sufficient to stand between them and the serfdom they seek to impose on the rest of us is the Govt of the People.
 

mcmilljb

Platinum Member
May 17, 2005
2,144
2
81
??????????

This is a major win for Insurance companies, and they are those in the front supporting it. Much cheaper for them if people have easy access to birth control.
Someone still has to pay. They're not going to provide it for free. The cost will be in everyone's premium. Instead of the religious organization paying for that part, the worker will pay for it. This debate was never over who was actually going to pay because I doubt the president thought the catholic church would pay for any form of birth control without a big fight. It was more about telling the church you're going to offer birth control to all your employees.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,148
1
76
Hmmmm...



The Republican party is being co-opted by the religious right. Two SEPARATE entities until very recently.

The dumb thing about it is simple. The Republicans always HAD the support of the religious right. The only time it ever paid to align with them directly was to win over another conservative Republican candidate.

But now, with all the Bible Thumping, they are getting a stronger core, but are alienating all those outside of it. They are also being driven by that core, rather than attempting to follow the wishes of the people they represent as a whole.

The key in politics is to REPRESENT NOT RULE.

This whole BC thing is a red herring designed to distract many over an issue that bears little on social dogma, societal cost, or even religious expression.

As was said earlier, if your company is the "Catholic Church", SUPPOSEDLY, 99% of you should really not be using this in the first place. When audited, the cost for the BC will be so low as to be inconsequential. Pennies per person per year when distributed.

Now, compared to the cost of ONE unwanted/unplanned pregnancy under the same HCP (for any that have not had a kid yet, ask a friend/relative to look at the bills for the medical services during pregnancy alone), compared to that cost, providing the woman, on a steady relationship (married or not), with pills is much CHEAPER in the long run.

Period.

Any other objection, at this point, is clinging to Dogma and forcing religious practice on others through alternate means.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,690
133
106
Wow how the f is this a debate? You can chose for yourself if you want to use birth control or not. Just because it's covered doesn't mean you have to use it.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,690
133
106
I can't take this crap anymore. These people who think this should be a debate are fucked in the head.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Wow how the f is this a debate? You can chose for yourself if you want to use birth control or not. Just because it's covered doesn't mean you have to use it.
It has to do with forcing a church to pay for murder. That is the view of the Catholic Church, that birth control is murder. You do not have to agree with them, but you do have to accept that this has been their policy for a LONG time.

The issue is the government saying "we know you consider this murder, but you must officially endorse it anyway".
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,285
113
106
It has to do with forcing a church to pay for murder. That is the view of the Catholic Church, that birth control is murder. You do not have to agree with them, but you do have to accept that this has been their policy for a LONG time.

The issue is the government saying "we know you consider this murder, but you must officially endorse it anyway".
The church is being forced to officially endorse murder!?

wtf? when did this happen?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
25,065
9,939
136
Republicans about to commit political suicide with the following...

A possible amendment to a bipartisan highway bill aims not only to reverse Obama’s birth-control rule—but to let employers pick and choose which health-care services to cover based on their religious or moral beliefs
I heard Harry Reid is letting this come up for a vote just to call Roy's bluff.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/15/roy-blunt-s-push-to-overturn-obama-s-contraception-compromise.html
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,311
8
81
This meme is appropriate for the whole "war on religion" stupidity perpetrated by Catholic bishops, the Republicans, and Fox News:

 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,527
18,079
136
It has to do with forcing a church to pay for murder. That is the view of the Catholic Church, that birth control is murder. You do not have to agree with them, but you do have to accept that this has been their policy for a LONG time.

The issue is the government saying "we know you consider this murder, but you must officially endorse it anyway".
birth control is murder?

did you eat paint chips as a kid?

wtf

The Catholic Church does not believe that birth control is murder. They disallow it because it reduces the potential number of little Christian babies, that will hopefully grow up and keep feeding the beast with their tithes; and/or provide fresh meat for their rape-happy priests.

The Catholic Church, and other useless brain dead inbred fucksticks believe that abortion is murder, however.
 
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