Separation of chuch/state? Not really it seems - fed court orders cross down - Bush signs law transferring cross to DOD

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Putting a cross or 10 commandments up in the public square hardly establishes anything. It is the public square, a place for expressions, including religious.

What do you think the reaction of most people in San Diego would be to a giant pentagram being put up in a public square upon the request of Satanists? The problem is the majority relgion is going to get benefits the others will not.

Those religious symbols prominently displayed in the public square are effectively seen as endorsing that religion. In fact people misleadingly assert that laws are really based on the Ten Commandments, when the reality is several of them are basically not reflected in laws anywhere in the United States and others were laws in many places well before the ten commandments might have been written down initially. (I.E. we certainly don't punish people legally who have had "any other god before him.") Displaying them in the courtroom is all about this ideology.

 

[Todd33]

The ironic part of all of this is the second commandment prohibits things like crosses and crucifixes. The Catholic church re-interpreted the second commandment to their liking though.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Scholars say "graven image" meant any religious symbol, picture, sculpture, etc. Pagans in the days of Moses had all sorts of symbols and statues, this commandment was to set Judaism apart from the pagans and low and behold the Christians fugged it up.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cj.htm

 

[Vic]

What is the issue here? The cross is a war memorial. And (if posters had actually read the article, they would know that) the law that evil Bush signed passed the House by the overwhelmingly bipartisan vote of 349-74, and then passed the Senate unanimously. What good would it have done him to not sign it and veto it when there were already more than enough votes to automatically override such a veto?
Here is a list of the 349 congressmen you should start writing letters to if you're pissed off about this, including 120 Democrats -- Text.

 

[shrumpage]

does this mean all those white cross grave markers in various militar graveyards have to be removed?

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: shrumpage
does this mean all those white cross grave markers in various militar graveyards have to be removed?

You can at least make an argument there that it is now individual preference on what you get. The Department of Defense has I believe somewhere around 27 different markings for different religions, including a marker for Athiests. Since it simply a marking for that particular indvidual and not a single overlapping religious marker for all of them or some sort of religious marking on a monument, it may be ok. The argument would be the graveyard is simpy a neutural body for the individual deceased and their families to express their religious or philosphical beliefs. This is different from monument style markings which are individually more prominent and realistically the government entity in question is not going to approve equal sized markings for any religious group that shows up and wants to stick theirs at that location.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: shrumpage
does this mean all those white cross grave markers in various militar graveyards have to be removed?

You can at least make an argument there that it is now individual preference on what you get. The Department of Defense has I believe somewhere around 27 different markings for different religions, including a marker for Athiests. Since it simply a marking for that particular indvidual and not a single overlapping religious marker for all of them or some sort of religious marking on a monument, it may be ok. The argument would be the graveyard is simpy a neutural body for the individual deceased and their families to express their religious or philosphical beliefs. This is different from monument style markings which are individually more prominent and realistically the government entity in question is not going to approve equal sized markings for any religious group that shows up and wants to stick theirs at that location.

See how many words it takes to get an intelligent point across? Now you see why appealing to people who get their political views from bumper stickers is a fruitless act.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I'm not religious but I would like to ask you a question. Can you please show me where the Constitution mentions 'separation of church and state'. I don't recall reading it there.

It specifically comes from a couple of the key founding fathers and what they said on this subject. Basically as a rule, the intent of those writting the document in the first place is key to how it should be enforced.

The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution, but rather is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, Jefferson uses the term "wall of separation between church and state" to show the Danbury Baptists that in both Connecticut and the entire United States, religious freedom is an inalienable right that government cannot take away...

James Madison, wrote in the early 1800s, "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

I think people dont care what he was saying when he wrote that. He was reassuring the idea they would not be subjected to a state mandated religion and would still continue to enjoy their freedom of religion and expression.

Not that the public square was off limits to religious expressions like some want to believe.

When a law is passed mandating a state religion all hell will break loose. Putting a cross or 10 commandments up in the public square hardly establishes anything. It is the public square, a place for expressions, including religious.

I am waiting for the day when they try to change the name of San Diego, Los Angeles and San Francisco because they represent christianity. It is coming, you can be assured of it.

The people on the side of banning these expressions are no better than the fundamentalists who try to push their religion on you. Both feel their opinions trump the opinions of the majority and thus should be forced on the majority.

It doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand the establishment clause.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: shrumpage
does this mean all those white cross grave markers in various militar graveyards have to be removed?

You can at least make an argument there that it is now individual preference on what you get. The Department of Defense has I believe somewhere around 27 different markings for different religions, including a marker for Athiests. Since it simply a marking for that particular indvidual and not a single overlapping religious marker for all of them or some sort of religious marking on a monument, it may be ok. The argument would be the graveyard is simpy a neutural body for the individual deceased and their families to express their religious or philosphical beliefs. This is different from monument style markings which are individually more prominent and realistically the government entity in question is not going to approve equal sized markings for any religious group that shows up and wants to stick theirs at that location.

See how many words it takes to get an intelligent point across? Now you see why appealing to people who get their political views from bumper stickers is a fruitless act.

You mean like just you with your knee-jerking about blaming Bush and all the Republicans (and all of Christianity while you're usually at it) for a bill that passed the House with an 80% vote?

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: Vic

You mean like just you with your knee-jerking about blaming Bush and all the Republicans (and all of Christianity while you're usually at it) for a bill that passed the House with an 80% vote?

He signed it, but he is a man of conviction right? He would never go against his political beliefs to appease popular opinion, right? The whole bill was dumb and everyone who voted for it was pandering, but Bush is the one with the photo op, so he was flaunting it. The buck stops where?

 

[themusgrat]

What is next if you can't put religious signs on governmental property? Next, you won't be able to talk about them, look at schools. No matter my religious belfiefs, it is ridiculous that a teacher can get fired for speaking his or her mind on the topic of religion. They can on any other topic. And as stated before, putting a cross on a memorial doesn't establish a state religion. Ever been to Arlington NATIONAL Cemetary? Oh, btw, did u know that there is a picture of the 10 commandments above the heads of the supreme court justices?

EDIT: and how could we foregt that "in God we trust" is on your money? look at how long that has survived, not because the gov forces religion down anybody's throats, if u think that, then get a life. it is meant to show our heritage, and we can all agree that many of the pilgrims, founding fathers, etc. were christians, and that was a good thing, since they obviously created the foundation for the freest and most stabe country ever.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: Vic

You mean like just you with your knee-jerking about blaming Bush and all the Republicans (and all of Christianity while you're usually at it) for a bill that passed the House with an 80% vote?

He signed it, but he is a man of conviction right? He would never go against his political beliefs to appease popular opinion, right? The whole bill was dumb and everyone who voted for it was pandering, but Bush is the one with the photo op, so he was flaunting it. The buck stops where?

Oh, give your partisan rhetoric a rest. I'm against this bill, but for reasons having almost nothing to do with the 1st amendment. That was just a smokescreen. The real issue here was the expansion of federal eminent domain powers, something both parties (and Bush, of course) in the federal gov't. are absolutely in favor of. So they make a little religious smokescreen, the Dems put a few token votes against it, and then pass it by 80%, well more than the 2/3rd's majority needed to override a veto. And why shouldn't Bush do a photo op? He does one for each and every single bill he signs with a dozen pens, regardless of how trivial, just like almost every President the US has ever had. It's an almost daily White House ritual.

How can you feign that you provide us with "intelligent points" when you're clearly a partisan fanboi who doesn't even know how our government works?

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: themusgrat
What is next if you can't put religious signs on governmental property?

That's kind of the point of the discussion.

Next, you won't be able to talk about them, look at schools. No matter my religious beliefs, it is ridiculous that a teacher can get fired for speaking his or her mind on the topic of religion.

I'm sure you would be all for a Muslim teacher discussing the Koran to kids, right? Unless it's a religious themed class (as in college) it has zero reason to be discussed. Go to private school.

They can on any other topic.

No, they have curriculums. Perhaps you should attend a public school sometime and see.

And as stated before, putting a cross on a memorial doesn't establish a state religion. Ever been to Arlington NATIONAL Cemetary?

This was discussed above, did you read the thread or just hit reply after reading the title? I highly doubt they make Jews or Atheist have a cross headstone, but if they did it would be a huge insult.

Oh, btw, did u know that there is a picture of the 10 commandments above the heads of the supreme court justices?

Which is also wrong, but tyranny by the majority is ok.

 

[themusgrat]

Uh, i just gradeated from high school... And do you not think that the Koran has had an impact on history? and get real, teachers always find ways to make their opinions known. the part about crosses was discussed, but i thought i saw ppl still discussing it... oh, and if having a picture of some guy holding a religious tablet is tyranny, uh, u dont know what tyranny is.

 

[Albatross]

demolish all cathedrals!it is religious tyranny the sight of a church!!!

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: albatross
demolish all cathedrals!it is religious tyranny the sight of a church!!!

Are they on government property?

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: Donny Baker

Originally posted by: albatross
demolish all cathedrals!it is religious tyranny the sight of a church!!!

Are they on government property?

people who are offended by the sight of a cross most likely have an anti-christian agenda.
it is pratically impossible to keep religion private.

 

[halik]

why dont they just fvcking move it to the next lot?

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: albatross

Originally posted by: Donny Baker

Originally posted by: albatross
demolish all cathedrals!it is religious tyranny the sight of a church!!!

Are they on government property?

people who are offended by the sight of a cross most likely have an anti-christian agenda.
it is pratically impossible to keep religion private.

And I suppose that putting a cross on top of an 800 foot mountain is trying to keep religion private. My father was a WW2 veteran, and an atheist, and this cross is offensive to me.
Christians have crosses at their places of worship, why do they feel the need to impose their symbols on non-christians as they move about San Diego?
I don't see other religions erecting gigantic symbols of their religions.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Christians have crosses at their places of worship, why do they feel the need to impose their symbols on non-christians as they move about San Diego?
I don't see other religions erecting gigantic symbols of their religions.

Just think of it as a giant lower case "t" and get over it.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: albatross

Originally posted by: Donny Baker

Originally posted by: albatross
demolish all cathedrals!it is religious tyranny the sight of a church!!!

Are they on government property?

people who are offended by the sight of a cross most likely have an anti-christian agenda.
it is pratically impossible to keep religion private.

And I suppose that putting a cross on top of an 800 foot mountain is trying to keep religion private. My father was a WW2 veteran, and an atheist, and this cross is offensive to me.
Christians have crosses at their places of worship, why do they feel the need to impose their symbols on non-christians as they move about San Diego?
I don't see other religions erecting gigantic symbols of their religions.

yes,but religion lives through the fervour of its followers ,so it`s hard to keep it private.
also,the US has been strongly influenced by a particular flavor of christianity,which left it`s mark on pretty much everything in the US:from the sensibilities of the people ,the economy and a lot of other things.
religion is not,as some like to think,some sort of a humble and useless annex to material realities;is very important and left is mark on pretty much all things in the west.
what contributions has the idea of an immortal soul and a personal god on the individualism of the west?
while individuality exist everywhere,individualsim flourished particularly in the west.
why the islamic world hasn`t managed to separate church and state and the west did?
"give to ceasar what belongs to ceasar and give to god what belongs to god".some see here the success of this separation.
when people who are not christian immigrate to the US,they implicitly pay hommage to a political and economic system heavily influenced by christianity.why are not offended by that?

and why are you so offended by a religios symbol if christians are delusional?if there is no god they are a bunch of retards in error.ignore them.IMHO.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Christians have crosses at their places of worship, why do they feel the need to impose their symbols on non-christians as they move about San Diego?
I don't see other religions erecting gigantic symbols of their religions.

Just think of it as a giant lower case "t" and get over it.

I suppose your reply would be the same if it were some large Islamic symbol? "Get over it"?

 

[themusgrat]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Christians have crosses at their places of worship, why do they feel the need to impose their symbols on non-christians as they move about San Diego?
I don't see other religions erecting gigantic symbols of their religions.

Just think of it as a giant lower case "t" and get over it.

ya, and also, remember that Christianity is the largest religion in America... so you might see more Christian stuff than anything else. And lol, I live in Memphis, there is this guy with a huge, i mean huge statue of buddah in his front yard. so there, you just havent been around much i guess.

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Christians have crosses at their places of worship, why do they feel the need to impose their symbols on non-christians as they move about San Diego?
I don't see other religions erecting gigantic symbols of their religions.

Just think of it as a giant lower case "t" and get over it.

How about we change it to a giant one-fingered peace sign?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: themusgrat

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Christians have crosses at their places of worship, why do they feel the need to impose their symbols on non-christians as they move about San Diego?
I don't see other religions erecting gigantic symbols of their religions.

Just think of it as a giant lower case "t" and get over it.

ya, and also, remember that Christianity is the largest religion in America... so you might see more Christian stuff than anything else. And lol, I live in Memphis, there is this guy with a huge, i mean huge statue of buddah in his front yard. so there, you just havent been around much i guess.

Front yard does not equal government land.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: albatross

Originally posted by: Donny Baker

Originally posted by: albatross
demolish all cathedrals!it is religious tyranny the sight of a church!!!

Are they on government property?

people who are offended by the sight of a cross most likely have an anti-christian agenda.
it is pratically impossible to keep religion private.

And I suppose that putting a cross on top of an 800 foot mountain is trying to keep religion private. My father was a WW2 veteran, and an atheist, and this cross is offensive to me.
Christians have crosses at their places of worship, why do they feel the need to impose their symbols on non-christians as they move about San Diego?
I don't see other religions erecting gigantic symbols of their religions.

I don't see what the big deal is. How is it offensive to just see a cross? Is there a law saying that you MUST look at it and you must stop for at least 20 seconds each time you pass it and pray? No. It's just a decoration. Get over it. Let them put up a huge buda statue next to it or a statue of a guy with a bomb strapped to his chest for all I care. If you are bothered by small stuff like this, I'd hate to live in your shoes for a day. "Look! That christian is breathing air that is on gov't property! We need to put a stop to this! It's gov't air and shouldn't be used to further the life of a christian!"