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Senate issues a statement affirming Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Trump. Preempting AG Barr.

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First, it wasn't espionage, you're misusing terms. It wasn't some state secret the Russians stole that Hillary was a disliked person who was a poor choice to run.

Of course it was espionage.


Espionage or spying is the act of obtaining secret or confidential information or divulging of the same without the permission of the holder of the information.

The Russians:

1) stole confidential information from the DNC server and
2) divulged it without the permission of the holder.

Secondly, even if you more properly said "a coordinated propaganda campaign" or something like that I didn't make that assertion that it was "entirely ineffective." I said "Being Hillary is what caused Hillary to lose." A better candidate wouldn't have allowed the propaganda to have been nearly as effective, basically it just reminded people of why they disliked Hillary Clinton to begin with. It didn't cause them to hold unfavorable views in the first place. Necessity and sufficiency.

If it wasn't entirely ineffective then it could most certainly have been what caused her to lose considering her margin of loss was incredibly small.
 
Whatever excuse you need to make I suppose. It'll improve your future election prospects when you properly assign the blame to your candidate instead of outside forces.

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Saved for if or when President Trump can no longer be President.
 
Ask the OP why he thought it was relevant to have brought it up in the first place, I merely responded to him.

My point was that blaming 3rd party state actors for her loss is like blaming the fork for being overweight. She lost because of who she was, any "Russian interference" just highlighted that to voters and reminded them why they didn't want her as POTUS.

It was most excellent mind fuckery all around. Brilliant. Audacious. Totally unprecedented in the mastery of social media & the blending in the fruits of illegal cyber espionage. Even Macedonian teens who made up lies about Hillary made money off it. They'll all be back to prey on vulnerable conservative headsets in 2020, I'm sure.
 
Actually, if you read the GOP-controlled Senate report it's quite clear that Russia's propaganda DID have an effect on the election. Saying "Hillary was a bad candidate and that was her problem" is bogus. Why? Because the Senate report states that Russian propaganda affected the election by causing voters who would have voted for her to stay home.

The Russians were playing both sides. While they were making up ridiculous propaganda to enrage conservatives and sway moderates they were also busy trying to convince liberals that they didn't need to vote because the election was in the bag.

So, yes, it did have an effect.
 
Actually, if you read the GOP-controlled Senate report it's quite clear that Russia's propaganda DID have an effect on the election. Saying "Hillary was a bad candidate and that was her problem" is bogus. Why? Because the Senate report states that Russian propaganda affected the election by causing voters who would have voted for her to stay home.

The Russians were playing both sides. While they were making up ridiculous propaganda to enrage conservatives and sway moderates they were also busy trying to convince liberals that they didn't need to vote because the election was in the bag.

So, yes, it did have an effect.

Not to mention poor Bernie being oh-so cheated by crooked she who must not be named & the wicked DNC. That was part of the Big Lie, as well.
 
So your response to him using the logical fallacy of Shifting the Burden of Proof is to handwave away any need for evidence and just assume it to be true? That's the logical fallacy of Alleged Certainty.

What game are you playing here? No one can "prove" whether a given variable flipped an election on its own. You can no more "prove" that whatever defects you see in Clinton flipped it either. When you made that statement, you took on the "burden of proof" yourself.

His point was that any variables could have flipped it because it's close. Burden of proof is irrelevant when something is technically unprovable. We can only work with what is plausible here, and given how close the election was, yes, it's plausible that Russian interference flipped it. It's also plausible several other variables did as well.
 
What game are you playing here? No one can "prove" whether a given variable flipped an election on its own. You can no more "prove" that whatever defects you see in Clinton flipped it either. When you made that statement, you took on the "burden of proof" yourself.

His point was that any variables could have flipped it because it's close. Burden of proof is irrelevant when something is technically unprovable. We can only work with what is plausible here, and given how close the election was, yes, it's plausible that Russian interference flipped it. It's also plausible several other variables did as well.

My point was that it was Hillary being the nominee that caused it to be close in the first place. As I've stated no other plausible Dem candidate would have been so unpopular that Trump was within cheating distance of winning.
 
My point was that it was Hillary being the nominee that caused it to be close in the first place. As I've stated no other plausible Dem candidate would have been so unpopular that Trump was within cheating distance of winning.

Really hard to predict because it’s unknown what the Russian bullshit machine would have done to anyone else.
I have no doubt the troll factory is working on Biden as we speak and I’m sure warren.
 
Really hard to predict because it’s unknown what the Russian bullshit machine would have done to anyone else.
I have no doubt the troll factory is working on Biden as we speak and I’m sure warren.

Warren's net favorable minus unfavorable is like either net zero or up to +4% right now depending on which polling site you use. That's double digits higher than Hillary Clinton's standing at this point in the 2016 election cycle (Oct 2015). At the point where she clinched the Dem nomination (June 14, 2016) she was at minus 17.4% net favorable/unfavorable. She finished on Election day with a net minus 12.6%. Which isn't that far off from what Trump's net favorability score is TODAY - net minus 13.5%.

OTOH the trend for Warren and Biden is holding steady at around net zero, basically mirroring the national political split. With Warren she has about 20% who are still in the 'unsure/haven't heard of' category. Basically every single one of the ~20% of persuadable voters ended up viewing Hillary Clinton unfavorably in 2016. That won't recur with Warren (or Biden). I can't tell you what the split will be but I'm guessing it will be close to even for Biden, probably low single but positive digits for Warren. If she captures even 1/10th of them that will give her a cushion of about 15% in the net favorable/unfavorable. That's not going to be overcome by "Russian troll factories" although it's entirely possible she screws it up on her own via gaffe, poor performance, or getting beaten by another Dem candidate for the nomination.

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Ask the OP why he thought it was relevant to have brought it up in the first place, I merely responded to him.

My point was that blaming 3rd party state actors for her loss is like blaming the fork for being overweight. She lost because of who she was, any "Russian interference" just highlighted that to voters and reminded them why they didn't want her as POTUS.

Keep telling yourself that. Someday it still wont be true.
 
Ask the OP why he thought it was relevant to have brought it up in the first place, I merely responded to him.

My point was that blaming 3rd party state actors for her loss is like blaming the fork for being overweight. She lost because of who she was, any "Russian interference" just highlighted that to voters and reminded them why they didn't want her as POTUS.
I never said Russian interference was the reason Hillary lost. I've said in the past she was an unlikable candidate. You now point out how Warrens numbers are far better then Hillary's at this point in time. Has it occurred to you the Russians have learned things and will do a better job next time putting a likable candidate in peril? Maybe hacking into systems and changing votes along with a more effective disinformation campaign?
 
I never said Russian interference was the reason Hillary lost. I've said in the past she was an unlikable candidate. You now point out how Warrens numbers are far better then Hillary's at this point in time. Has it occurred to you the Russians have learned things and will do a better job next time putting a likable candidate in peril? Maybe hacking into systems and changing votes along with a more effective disinformation campaign?

Nice "heads I win, tails you lose" mindset you have there to already lay the excuses out in case you lose in 2020 (or ever again really). If the Dem candidate wins it's because their policies were so popular and should be implemented because it's what the American people demand. If the Dem candidate loses it's because the Russians stole the election despite the Dem policies being sooooooooooo popular.
 
Nice "heads I win, tails you lose" mindset you have there to already lay the excuses out in case you lose in 2020 (or ever again really). If the Dem candidate wins it's because their policies were so popular and should be implemented because it's what the American people demand. If the Dem candidate loses it's because the Russians stole the election despite the Dem policies being sooooooooooo popular.
I have read over your posts in this thread and find them, in my opinion, to be biased. On the one hand the point is that while foreign attempts to influence our elections can't be prevented, the evidence in the Muller report suggests that the 'Elect Trump Team' cooperated and wanted their help. You deflect away from that fact. Secondly, you attribute Clinton's loss to her poor candidacy while running against Trump, the poorest candidate ever to be elected very likely. In other words, you project onto the election your own feelings about how worthless she was. You can imagine and I am sure you do, that you came to these conclusions via astute political analysis, but what I see in you is a disgruntled personality contemptuous of liberal thinking. It is the tint in your lenses that causes you to see things as you do, not their reality. You came into this with a point of view already in place. Do you have curmudgeon-like tendencies?
 
Nice "heads I win, tails you lose" mindset you have there to already lay the excuses out in case you lose in 2020 (or ever again really). If the Dem candidate wins it's because their policies were so popular and should be implemented because it's what the American people demand. If the Dem candidate loses it's because the Russians stole the election despite the Dem policies being sooooooooooo popular.
You didn't seen to notice I didn't blame the Russians for Hillary losing but you cannot claim it was a non factor.

Nice, let's play just ignore it even though it happened the last Presidential election. Sorry Republicans don't even want to enact basic safeguards like requiring all states to have paper backup.
 
My point was that it was Hillary being the nominee that caused it to be close in the first place. As I've stated no other plausible Dem candidate would have been so unpopular that Trump was within cheating distance of winning.

Propaganda works. Clinton's defeat is proof positive of that. Russian efforts were undeniably part of it. You know that to be true. The people most affected by it will be the first to deny that they were, of course.
 
Whatever excuse you need to make I suppose. It'll improve your future election prospects when you properly assign the blame to your candidate instead of outside forces.

So what you're saying is that it doesn't matter that the President invited, and quite likely participated in, criminal interference in our elections by a foreign power.. because Hillary would have lost anyway?

Wow.
 
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