Sen. Bernie Sanders introduces Estate Tax bill, commentary

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
My favorite US Senator, Bernie Sanders, has introduced a bill on the Estate Tax.

He summarize much of the case for it pretty well:

The American people are hurting. As a result of the greed, recklessness and illegal behavior on Wall Street, millions of Americans have lost their jobs, homes, life savings and their ability to get a higher education. Today, some 22 percent of our children live in poverty, and millions more have become dependent on food stamps for their food.

And while the Great Wall Street Recession has devastated the middle class, the truth is that working families have been experiencing a decline for decades. During the Bush years alone, from 2000-2008, median family income dropped by nearly $2,200 and millions lost their health insurance. Today, because of stagnating wages and higher costs for basic necessities, the average two-wage-earner family has less disposable income than a one-wage-earner family did a generation ago. The average American today is underpaid, overworked and stressed out as to what the future will bring for his or her children. For many, the American dream has become a nightmare.

But, not everybody is hurting. While the middle class disappears and poverty increases the wealthiest people in our country are not only doing extremely well, they are using their wealth and political power to protect and expand their very privileged status at the expense of everyone else. This upper-crust of extremely wealthy families are hell-bent on destroying the democratic vision of a strong middle-class which has made the United States the envy of the world. In its place they are determined to create an oligarchy in which a small number of families control the economic and political life of our country.

The 400 richest families in America, who saw their wealth increase by some $400 billion during the Bush years, have now accumulated $1.27 trillion in wealth. Four hundred families! During the last 15 years, while these enormously rich people became much richer their effective tax rates were slashed almost in half. While the highest paid 400 Americans had an average income of $345 million in 2007, as a result of Bush tax policy they now pay an effective tax rate of 16.6 percent, the lowest on record.

Last year, the top 25 hedge fund managers made a combined $25 billion but because of tax policy their lobbyists helped write, they pay a lower effective tax rate than many teachers, nurses, and police officers. As a result of tax havens in the Cayman Islands, Bermuda and elsewhere, the wealthy and large corporations are evading some $100 billion a year in U.S. taxes. Warren Buffett, one of the richest people on earth, has often commented that he pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary.

But it's not just wealthy individuals who grotesquely manipulate the system for their benefit. It's the multi-national corporations they own and control. In 2009, Exxon Mobil, the most profitable corporation in history made $19 billion in profits and not only paid no federal income tax -- they actually received a $156 million refund from the government. In 2005, one out of every four large corporations in the United States paid no federal income taxes while earning $1.1 trillion in revenue.

But, perhaps the most outrageous tax break given to multi-millionaires and billionaires happened this January when the estate tax, established in 1916, was repealed for one year as a result of President Bush's 2001 tax legislation. This tax applies only to the wealthiest three-tenths of 1 percent of our population. This is what Teddy Roosevelt, a leading proponent of the estate tax, said in 1910. "The absence of effective state, and, especially, national restraint upon unfair money-getting has tended to create a small class of enormously wealthy and economically powerful men, whose chief object is to hold and increase their power. The prime need is to change the conditions which enable these men to accumulate power which is not for the general welfare that they should hold or exercise.... Therefore, I believe in a ... graduated inheritance tax on big fortunes, properly safeguarded against evasion and increasing rapidly in amount with the size of the estate." And that's what we've had for the last 95 years -- until 2010.

Today, not content with huge tax breaks on their income; not content with massive corporate tax loopholes; not content with trade laws enabling them to outsource the jobs of millions of American workers to low-wage countries and not content with tax havens around the world, the ruling elite and their lobbyists are working feverishly to either eliminate the estate tax or substantially lower it. If they are successful at wiping out the estate tax, as they came close to doing in 2006 with every Republican but two voting to do, it would increase the national debt by over $1 trillion during a 10-year period. At a time when we already have a $13 trillion debt, enormous unmet needs and the highest level of wealth inequality in the industrialized world, it is simply obscene to provide more tax breaks to multi-millionaires and billionaires.

That is why I have introduced the Responsible Estate Tax Act (S.3533). This legislation would raise $318 billion over the next decade by establishing a graduated inheritance tax on estates over $3.5 million retroactive to this year. This bill ensures that the wealthiest 0.3 percent of Americans pays their fair share of estate taxes, while making sure that 99.7 percent of Americans never have to pay a dime when they lose a loved one. It also makes certain that the overwhelming majority of family farmers and small businesses never have to pay an estate tax.

This legislation must be passed because, with a $13 trillion national debt and huge unmet needs, we cannot afford more tax breaks for millionaire and billionaire families. But even more importantly, it must be passed because the United States must not become an oligarchy in which a handful of wealthy and powerful families control the destiny of our nation. Too many people, from the inception of this country, have struggled and died to maintain our democratic vision. We owe it to them and to our children to maintain it.

He doesn't get much into the role the tax has in moderating the growth of dynasty and the benefits to a more competitive economy and so on, but he's got the right basic approach.

We have nutty ideologues who practically want to abolish taxes who would turn the US into an oligarchy, as Sanders says, when citizens are again serfs.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Sanders is the man. This is a pretty good article by him in way we are going over at nation. Basically misery and destitution next to fabulous wealth with protectors (police state & congress) who shut up opposition. Anyway Craig people don't understand or care is my view - hating a black women is much more important.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
My favorite US Senator, Bernie Sanders, has introduced a bill on the Estate Tax.

He summarize much of the case for it pretty well:



He doesn't get much into the role the tax has in moderating the growth of dynasty and the benefits to a more competitive economy and so on, but he's got the right basic approach.

We have nutty ideologues who practically want to abolish taxes who would turn the US into an oligarchy, as Sanders says, when citizens are again serfs.

What we really need is a list of names and addresses!
Drop a list off at every Mosque, gun shop, fertilizer shop, gaol and mental asylum in the USA!
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
Sanders is the man. This is a pretty good article by him in way we are going as a nation. Basically misery and destitution next to fabulous wealth with protectors (police state & congress) who shut up opposition. Anyway Craig people don't understand or care is my view - hating a black women is much more important.

I hear he cooks a mean bit of fried chicken too!
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Lets see.... Self described retard....errr... socialist Sanders proposes tax increases. Shocking I tell you! That's like a broken record. It's the usual class warfare argument. It's all the fault of the rich! Blame them, take their wealth to pay for everything else! Just enact a few more taxes and we can turn America into a new socialist utopia! Viva La Revolucion!

Bottom line: the growing gap between the uber wealthy and the rest is worrying. At the same time, adding wonderful new taxes is not the answer. Instead of a big tool belt with a variety of tools to do the job, idiots like Sanders are like repairmen with just a hammer (tax increases) in their tool belt to address every problem.

The more logical answer is to do a comprehensive review of the entire tax code and simplify it, eliminating many of the loopholes used by the ultra rich to escape taxation. Income is taxed as it is made. There is no logical reason to tax it again when the taxpayer dies. Further, the vast majority (close to 70% last time I checked) of billionaires in the US are "self made", not people who inherited their wealth. It makes no logical sense to penalize the productive people by taking yet another chunk of their earnings when they want to leave something for their family.

We've already seen in the past how unfair estate taxes tend to be; people end up losing heirlooms, family farms, business that have been built from the ground up etc. The ultra rich get around them anyway by transferring most of the wealth into trusts and other mechanisms before they die.

In other words, Sanders = idiot. As usual.
 

NoWhereM

Senior member
Oct 15, 2007
543
0
0
My favorite US Senator, Bernie Sanders, has introduced a bill on the Estate Tax.

He summarize much of the case for it pretty well:



He doesn't get much into the role the tax has in moderating the growth of dynasty and the benefits to a more competitive economy and so on, but he's got the right basic approach.

We have nutty ideologues who practically want to abolish taxes who would turn the US into an oligarchy, as Sanders says, when citizens are again serfs.

If the basic idea is to take wealth away from families who have been rich for generations why wait until they die? They inherited wealth that was inherited, which the proposed Responsible Estate Tax Act is designed to take away from them over several generations, so why not just take it now and be done with it?

And if we're going to be fair about this we need to just have a total do over. Everyone should turn over everything they have to the government so it can be added up and the cash value divided equally. Fair is fair after all, and I just want my fair share.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
"in moderating the growth of dynasty"

Yet you don't protest the Kennedy dynasty, Craig, since they suit your ideology.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,331
34,813
136
Sanders is right. Restore the federal estate tax, tax capital gains as regular income, abolish the cap on SS taxes, and means test SS. Also tax the shit out of manufactured imports and exports of raw materials.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
Lets see.... Self described retard....errr... socialist Sanders proposes tax increases. Shocking I tell you! That's like a broken record. It's the usual class warfare argument. It's all the fault of the rich! Blame them, take their wealth to pay for everything else! Just enact a few more taxes and we can turn America into a new socialist utopia! Viva La Revolucion!

Bottom line: the growing gap between the uber wealthy and the rest is worrying. At the same time, adding wonderful new taxes is not the answer. Instead of a big tool belt with a variety of tools to do the job, idiots like Sanders are like repairmen with just a hammer (tax increases) in their tool belt to address every problem.

The more logical answer is to do a comprehensive review of the entire tax code and simplify it, eliminating many of the loopholes used by the ultra rich to escape taxation. Income is taxed as it is made. There is no logical reason to tax it again when the taxpayer dies. Further, the vast majority (close to 70% last time I checked) of billionaires in the US are "self made", not people who inherited their wealth. It makes no logical sense to penalize the productive people by taking yet another chunk of their earnings when they want to leave something for their family.

We've already seen in the past how unfair estate taxes tend to be; people end up losing heirlooms, family farms, business that have been built from the ground up etc. The ultra rich get around them anyway by transferring most of the wealth into trusts and other mechanisms before they die.

In other words, Sanders = idiot. As usual.

Is your dad a billionaire?
Why not change trust laws firstly?
 
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gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
Sanders is right. Restore the federal estate tax, tax capital gains as regular income, abolish the cap on SS taxes, and means test SS. Also tax the shit out of manufactured imports and exports of raw materials.

So what will your country's foreign creditors think of this Idea?
I notice you don't include the import of raw materials, what do you think will happen to the price of those goods delivered to your ports?

You all continue to dance around the Devil!
 
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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I was watching a conversation on this subject on the Kudlow report. The estate tax if it went back to the Pre-Bush changes, would revert back to a limit of 1 mil for the estate tax to be effective. You can see how this would effect a lot of people. Some reasonable sized housed in some cities could easily be worth more than $300,000.00 So amassing a $1 Mil might be fairly easy to do for a lot of people in the USA who live in areas with a higher costs and higher standards of living.

The other problem is that there are not a lot of people population-wise that the estate tax revised edition will effect assuming it will be updated raising the ceiling you have to reach for it to kick in. Some politicians are quoting a ceiling of $2 Mil - $8 Mil. The other problem is that so few people will qualify that they represent around 1/10th of a percent of the annual Tax base. So going back to an estate tax will not really help much.

We would be better off if we started to do away with certain tax breaks that we give to corporations, small businesses and also to individuals. It is the exemptions that cause the problems, not the tax rate. Congress itself gave the corporations and small businesses and private citizens the exemptions that allow them to not pay any taxes so Congress is to blame for the mess we are in. If Congress really believes in the commerce clause then let them do away with things like Tax Abatements, and Business Expenses on Income Tax.

Is it a wonder why some people want to see a FLAT TAX?

What a wicked web we weave, when we paractice to Deceive!
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
You have to remember the most Corporations do not pay tax. They pay out dividends to their stock holders and then they pay their employees, and have to purchase raw supplies and what not. So your only recourse is to tax the stockholders when they sell stock or receive dividends. After that you could also tax all income of the officers of the corporations at a higher rate for their excessive wages. Then you could also tax employees who receive stock options at an even higher rate. However, you may want a two tier tax system for stocks. You dont want to tax the small guys at the same rate as people who own millions or billions in stock. Just think how your retirement may depend on the stock market doing well. Higher taxes means less retirement income.

When you have a higher tax on imports (We call that a tarriff?), then the countries also do the same to our exports. Do you want to start this kind of anti-free-trade war?
 
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gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
You have to remember the most Corporations do not pay tax. They pay out dividends to their stock holders and then they pay their employees, and have to purchase raw supplies and what not. So your only recourse is to tax the stockholders when they sell stock or receive dividends. After that you could also tax all income of the officers of the corporations at a higher rate for their excessive wages. Then you could also tax employees who receive stock options at an even higher rate. However, you may want a two tier tax system for stocks. You dont want to tax the small guys at the same rate as people who own millions or billions in stock. Just think how your retirement may depend on the stock market doing well. Higher taxes means less retirement income.

When you have a higher tax on imports (We call that a tarriff?), then the countries also do the same to our exports. Do you want to start this kind of anti-free-trade war?

Really it comes back to you're(the usa) not capable of paying back your creditors what you owe as a nation both private and public. You are in between a rock and a hard place, either
1. you revolt and renegotiate your terms of debt, thus losing your standard of living for your top end.(best long term outcome IMHO)
2. you keep thieving the worlds economy to pay it back slowly(unlikely because they are acutely aware now of whats going on)
3.you start a major war (bit late now to get any surprise element going there, so be ready to hurt bad if that happens)
I don't hate the usa by the way, I am just being a fly on the wall and not using rose coloured glasses.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Interesting he rails on the REASONS the wealthy are becoming more so, yet propses NOTHING to address WHY. Instead, he proposes yet another wealth shift from private citizens to the government.

Dumbshit.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
The estate tax reduces entrepreneurship and it is a super duper pisspoor revenue raiser, meaning it's used to punish people rather than raise money for the general welfare and common defense of the citizenry.

If you tax 55% after a million dollars though, I guess a lot of revenue will come in since it's not that uncommon for people to inherit more than $1M. However, that still kills entreprenuership. Or what if the person who inherits 1.2M has to split it a few ways and has a lot of kids and needs that money to buy a house and a few years worth of "meat and drink" or something?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Interesting he rails on the REASONS the wealthy are becoming more so, yet propses NOTHING to address WHY. Instead, he proposes yet another wealth shift from private citizens to the government.

Dumbshit.

Bill Gates and Warren Buffet and a whole slew of super rich support the estate tax and they're far smarter than you are.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The estate tax reduces entrepreneurship

No, actually it increases it.

The Entrepeneur who made the money isn't using it, and contrary to your idea that taxes not raised here simply grow on trees, they're actually shifted onto other people.

And those other people paying the price have THEIR entrepreneurship decreased so that the estates are allowed to get bigger and move us to oligarchy.

and it is a super duper pisspoor revenue raiser, meaning it's used to punish people rather than raise money for the general welfare and common defense of the citizenry.

Simply wrong, but there isn't an enough of an argument there for a specific response.

If you tax 55% after a million dollars though, I guess a lot of revenue will come in since it's not that uncommon for people to inherit more than $1M. However, that still kills entreprenuership. Or what if the person who inherits 1.2M has to split it a few ways and has a lot of kids and needs that money to buy a house and a few years worth of "meat and drink" or something?

Except no one's suggesting that - he said, the top 0.3% of estates. Whether it's that or a little more, it's quite exclusive.

And as I understand it, it's the amount over that base, so making your $1.2 Million instead $3.7 million to correct it to the base of $3.5 million, that's an estate tax on $200,000.

Of about $100,000 out of $3.7 million.

Even then there has been the possibility, as he said, of a graduated Estate Tax to be even less for estates closer to the line.

Your entrepreneurship argument works quite the opposite of what you said - this tax helps prevent a few from owning everything and reducing entrepreneurship as with oligarchy.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126

Yeah, that's the sound over YOUR head, everyone knows WHY the rich have gotten richer (globalization/outsourcing/technology). But conservatives seem to be oblivious as fuck as to why generational wealth accumulation/american aristocracy is BAD. It's funny how the super rich are able to see how bad this is for our republic but nobody peons like yourself can't seem to get this concept.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Yeah, that's the sound over YOUR head, everyone knows WHY the rich have gotten richer (globalization/outsourcing/technology). But conservatives seem to be oblivious as fuck as to why generational wealth accumulation/american aristocracy is BAD. It's funny how the super rich are able to see how bad this is for our republic but nobody peons like yourself can't seem to get this concept.

Not sure what post you can point to, but Ive never said I dont understand. My issue is all this chatter about going after the REASONS the wealthy are getting wealthier. Has nothing to do with my not understanding that they ARE. For example, where's the support (from the government) or the bills to eliminate or legislate things like increasing the 15% tax on cap gains? Why not eliminate the CAUSE of wealth in the first place? Thats just one example.

But anyway, that whoosed over your head.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
I love it, .3% "their fair share" while the rest pay nothing.

Does not compute.

Progressives - Eliminating property rights since 1940
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Interesting he rails on the REASONS the wealthy are becoming more so, yet propses NOTHING to address WHY. Instead, he proposes yet another wealth shift from private citizens to the government.

Dumbshit.

It is, after all, Bernie Sanders we're talking about..... stupidity is not a surprise coming from him.

Although, I do applaud him for putting out these kinds of bills every now and again, it makes it easier to spot the other morons in congress, just look for the idiots supporting that legislation. It's like a nice convenient Jeff Foxworthy "here's your sign" thing.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I love it, .3% "their fair share" while the rest pay nothing.

Does not compute.

Progressives - Eliminating property rights since 1940

The .3% get the same tax-free 3.5 million dollar estate that everyone does. You childish ideologues who use labels like 'eliminates property rights' to any tax are the problem.