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Seeking specific features in a soundcard. Something that mimics an nForce2 APU would be great.

Jeff7

Jeff7

Lifer
My NF7-S is comatose, and may or may not ever recover. Whether or not it survives, I'm still upgrading, and the most likely contender is a Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3. I don't know what its onboard audio will be capable of though. So if it can't deliver these features, I need a soundcard that can.

Things I'm looking for:
- Adjustable subwoofer crossover, preferably up to at least 400Hz. The nForce2 allows this, which is needed to tame the overzealous bass on my Logitech Z-640's.
- Software equalizer.
 
Do you know what the crossover integrated into the speaker set is?

400hz for a setting seems very high to be adjusting it to try to change how it sounds. So you turn the crossover way up and then turn down the bass or something?

I think the X-Fi cards have a bass redirect option but I don't own one to tell you for sure.
 
I don't know much about speakers. I know this:
Without this LFE crossover thing enabled, I get a lot of strong bass from the subwoofer, even with the volume knob on the sub turned all the way down. Setting the software to somewhere around 300Hz seems to slice out that end of the audio spectrum, so the subwoofer basically sits idle then.
If I want to put on headphones though, then I disable the crossover, or else my headphones don't get any bass either.
 
I haven't really messed with crossovers on soundcards since I haven't really had that option and have been using a digital connection for several years. A crossover frequency usually means that below whatever you set it at, the signal starts to get diverted to the subwoofer.

For example in a movie you might have 5 tracks for the speakers and 1 LFE track for the sub. The really low effects tend to be on the LFE track (low frequency effects) but the other tracks also have a good deal of bass in them.

Unless you have speakers that are fullrange (like good response below 30hz... and even then it would be questionable), you'd want to set your crossover frequency and run the speakers as "small". In hometheater applications, the standard setting is usually ~80hz. With that setting, bass below 80hz in the tracks for the speakers starts to get diverted to the sub. This isn't a brick wall where it is all transferred, but a gradual transition away from the speakers. If you set it to 80hz, you'd want your speakers to have good output to about an octave below that... 40hz in this case.

I don't know why I'm saying all this except that I don't quite understand why setting the crossover higher is reducing the bass. Setting it higher would just seem to be causing more signal to get to the sub and would tend to make it produce more sound. The issue with computer speakers is that they already have a built in crossover that's designed to match the capabilities of the speaker set. Since computer speaker satellites are usually very small and incapable of producing bass on their own without... well... destroying themselves, the subwoofer crossover is usually set pretty darn high.

That's part of the reason why subs in computer speaker systems tend to be annoying. If you have a relatively powerful (or loud I guess would be a better word) sub, it ends up blaring some of the frequencies above 80hz. Not only can you localize where the sub is since the crossover is set high enough that the human ear can locate the higher frequencies coming out of the sub, but it tends to sound bad in general 😛

Because computer speaker sets have a set crossover point built into them, I'm not quite sure what setting a crossover in the signal you give them is really doing. For small speakers in hometheater applications, 200hz would be quite high for a crossover point. If you're setting your to 400hz or higher, a ton of frequencies would be getting diverted to the sub. Depending on how the "crossover" really works though, I could see how that might actually be kind of like a high pass filter. Maybe the information below the "crossover" frequency just gets thrown out. That would certainly explain why setting it higher would reduce your bass output.

If you want to get nerdy, you could try to get some test tones and listen to some different frequencies and try to tell what is really going on.

At any rate, I would think a decent equalizer in combination with setting the sub's volume control all the way down would be enough to cut the bass down on the speakers. In my own experience with the cheap logitech sets, turning the volume on the sub all the way down was enough to get them tame enough. Add to that a possible 20dB reduction to bass in equalizers, and I have a hard time believing that you really need to mess with "crossover" controls.
 
Besides the obligatory ok, Jello is right - computer speakers should have a crossover built in and be setup just fine to not need any crossover from the audio card. I wouldn't bother with the settings and just use a digital output into the speakers and their amp.
 
Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Besides the obligatory ok, Jello is right - computer speakers should have a crossover built in and be setup just fine to not need any crossover from the audio card. I wouldn't bother with the settings and just use a digital output into the speakers and their amp.
Click to expand...

The 640s don't have a digital input, noob.
 
Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Besides the obligatory ok, Jello is right - computer speakers should have a crossover built in and be setup just fine to not need any crossover from the audio card. I wouldn't bother with the settings and just use a digital output into the speakers and their amp.
Click to expand...
There's your keyword there - "should". These probably do have some kind of crossover.



Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
The 640s don't have a digital input, noob.
Click to expand...
Says the guy with over 100 fewer posts. 😀


I don't know why I'm saying all this except that I don't quite understand why setting the crossover higher is reducing the bass.
Click to expand...
It seems as though it works more as a bandpass, stopping all frequencies below the specified value.

Whatever it is, that's what I need - something that will neatly trim off all sound below a certain frequency. Once this happens, the subwoofer is almost entirely inactive. Somewhere above 300Hz, it stops producing vibrations.
This is the effect I am looking for. I want fully controllable bass, on when I want it, off when I don't.

At any rate, I would think a decent equalizer in combination with setting the sub's volume control all the way down would be enough to cut the bass down on the speakers. In my own experience with the cheap logitech sets, turning the volume on the sub all the way down was enough to get them tame enough. Add to that a possible 20dB reduction to bass in equalizers, and I have a hard time believing that you really need to mess with "crossover" controls.
Click to expand...
I've tried that already. The "low" setting on this subwoofer is still way too overpowered for my taste. The equalizer, at least with the nForce2, didn't seem to cover all the frequencies adequately. I'd still get some noise from the subwoofer.

nVidia's "crossover" thing really does the trick nicely. And I don't have the software running anymore, since my motherboard is shot, so I can't get screenshots. It also won't even run if it can't find the hardware.
I'd also love to do the testing with a tone generator, but again, no can do. Motherboard is KIA, and only a high grade, 1800uF, low-ESR capacitor can revive it.
 
Ankit (Agaboogaboo) is one of my friends, just messing with him 😉

After christmas he'll be able to tell me how hot he's been running his own sub with the SPL meter he's getting 😛

So yeah, if this is just acting like a highpass filter, then I can understand how it is managing to do what you're describing.

I have not tried enough soundcards in person to know how common having a setting like that is. From my understanding, the X-Fi's option for "crossover" is actually a real crossover function and would just redirect the bass from lower frequencies on the speaker channels to the subwoofer.

 
I did manage to get the same effect by passing an audio file through Goldwave's bandpass function. It nicely trimmed off all frequencies below around 300Hz, and the subwoofer remained quiet.
But I can't exactly do this in movies, games, or every other sound the computer might make. That's why I need the feature in my sound card.
 
🙁

I just use headphones when I can't be loud. Sounds like you already kind of do that though 😛

This would be so much easier if this didn't involve computer speakers and you could just set a crossover on your receiver and turn off your sub when you didn't want bass 😉
 
Yeah, but sometimes I like to have music or TV going and still be able to move around the room. So I can just chop off the lower frequencies, and have some sound without everyone else and the adjacent rooms having to endure the lower frequencies of what I happen to be listening to.


It may be a bad time to ask, but if I may, what exactly is a crossover? It seems to have a different meaning to nVidia than to the rest of the world. You seem to describe it as something to send low frequencies to the subwoofer, whilst nVidia's tool seems to take it away.

Here's the fun part: My laptop only has stereo output. I hook the green plug (for the front speakers only, in theory) from my 640's to the laptop's output. The subwoofer goes fully active, playing right along with everything else. In fact, as I turn the volume up gradually, I hear the subwoofer's low frequencies before anything from the front and center speakers. (Yes, the center also plays sound with just the stereo input.)


I suppose my other option could be a more brute force approach - install a switch on the subwoofer that just cuts the connection between the speaker and the rest of the circuit. That'd kill the bass quite thoroughly. Is that a feasible option?

Note: The idea of opening an electronic device and doing surgery on it does not faze me. I've silenced a UPS permanently in this manner - open it up, and remove the piezo speaker. It never makes a peep anymore. This particular UPS lacked a mute button, and would beep every 10 seconds when the power went out. It was only running a router, network switch, and cable modem, so nothing high drain. But it still insisted on saying, "OMG, Power's out!!!" as though I couldn't figure that out myself. "Duh, oh, is that why the lights are out? Thank you, Mr UPS, never would have figured it out without you!"
 
This would probably cover it better 😛
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_crossover

The "crossover" setting you're talking about doesn't really sound like a crossover at all to me. If it really was a crossover, it would be taking those sub 400hz frequencies and sending them to the subwoofer.

A true crossover is going to be used to send different frequency ranges to different speaker parts. It seems that nVidia is doing is giving you a filter to get rid of low frequencies altogether but calling it a crossover.

I have no idea on the speakers playing sound out the center with just a stereo signal. The subwoofer playing is normal since that's a function of the internal crossover of the speakers taking the bass off the FL/FR signal and sending it to the sub.

The center playing is confusing to me though. Does the 640 set have any sort of "matrix" or "m3d" feature? These would function to give you fake surround from a stereo source.

Not sure on how easy the opening it up and messing with it idea would be. I'm sure you could get that to work though.
 
Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Not sure on how easy the opening it up and messing with it idea would be. I'm sure you could get that to work though.
Click to expand...

That's what I like to hear. 🙂

This method has a distinct advantage: it's cheap. I'm about to sink close to $800 into upgrading the rest of the computer, which is already well over what I had in mind to spend. And it'd be a pain to try to sell off my z-640's. 1) I can't give them a shining review, unless you happen to love overpowered bass, 2) packaging large items is a pain, and 3) the high shipping costs for large heavy things takes away from the amount of money I actually receive. Sure, the buyer pays for it, but no one is going to want to pay much for the speakers if they're spending a lot on shipping.


One thing comes to mind with a manual switch though: will there be a loud thud whenever I switch it? If so, what kind of switch might I look for to reduce or eliminate this?
 
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Not sure on how easy the opening it up and messing with it idea would be. I'm sure you could get that to work though.
Click to expand...

That's what I like to hear. 🙂

This method has a distinct advantage: it's cheap. I'm about to sink close to $800 into upgrading the rest of the computer, which is already well over what I had in mind to spend. And it'd be a pain to try to sell off my z-640's. 1) I can't give them a shining review, unless you happen to love overpowered bass, 2) packaging large items is a pain, and 3) the high shipping costs for large heavy things takes away from the amount of money I actually receive. Sure, the buyer pays for it, but no one is going to want to pay much for the speakers if they're spending a lot on shipping.


One thing comes to mind with a manual switch though: will there be a loud thud whenever I switch it? If so, what kind of switch might I look for to reduce or eliminate this?
Click to expand...

I would think that if you had the speakers turned off when you hit the switch that you wouldn't run into any problems.

Are you thinking you'd put one in one of the wires that goes to power the woofer?

I hope the Logitech amp doesn't have any issues running with the sub circuit open 😛
 
I'd either switch off the woofer's power supply, or else the wires that lead directly to the speaker. It depends on what I find when I get the thing open, which will happen sometime after this week, when winter break starts.


Here's a fun little fact: the woofer makes a very quiet buzzing noise even when the speakers are turned off, it is slightly warm, and it draws about 6 watts. Yeah, speakers are apparently something else that needs a soft-off function. :roll:
 
Good idea. I do believe I shall. Will this be a first in the history of computing? A modding project to reduce the amount of bass put out by a piece of audio hardware?

Un-pimp my ride, please.
Jeff7-up: The Un-pimp. ®
 
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Good idea. I do believe I shall. Will this be a first in the history of computing? A modding project to reduce the amount of bass put out by a piece of audio hardware?

Un-pimp my ride, please.
Jeff7-up: The Un-pimp. ®
Click to expand...

Nah, I know too much bass is a common complaint with the Logitech sets 😉
 
I see. I wonder if they caught on, and toned it down a bit on their later models?

Well thank you, good Soundman. Stay tuned for updates, hopefully sometime in the next month. Unless I get a sound card that happens to have what I need. Then there shall be no modding for anyone!😉
 
Originally posted by: Jeff7
I see. I wonder if they caught on, and toned it down a bit on their later models?

Well thank you, good Soundman. Stay tuned for updates, hopefully sometime in the next month. Unless I get a sound card that happens to have what I need. Then there shall be no modding for anyone!😉
Click to expand...

But boomy loud bass is Logitech's signature sound 😉
 
Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I have not tried enough soundcards in person to know how common having a setting like that is. From my understanding, the X-Fi's option for "crossover" is actually a real crossover function and would just redirect the bass from lower frequencies on the speaker channels to the subwoofer.
Click to expand...
The crossover setting in my Audigy 2 ZS works just like you'd expect it to: it does actually redirect bass to the subwoofer. I use it for my HT system, which is connected through the analog multi-input on my receiver to my Audigy.

I am a bit surprised to see the crossover have any effect on the sound. To me, it seems like anything that the nVidia crossover does would be undone and re-redirected by the internal Z-640 crossover. The only thing I can think of would be that the nVidia crossover does work correctly, but the one on the Z-640 takes that newly directed signal and just filters out the high frequencies, leaving a huge response gap between the crossover frequency of the Z-640 and the crossover point of the SoundStorm APU...

Edit: Oh, and I wanna see pictures of the mod, too! I've taken apart my MegaWorks set to fix it (had to resolder a capacitor whose connector broke), but I like to see electronics get the ol' treatment.
 
It definitely seems to work more like a bandpass.


If you like seeing gutted electronics, check out my website, in the Projects section. You can see the guts of a monitor, and my damn fine Scanner PC.
 
I gots mah new motherboard and other fine hardware.
The system flies. I went from a 2GHz AthlonXP Mobile to a 2.4GHz Core2Duo. Even just one core is considerably faster, though it'd be great if more apps could use both cores at once. And 2GB of RAM, plus a 7800GT videocard to replace my 9800 Pro. It's all nice and fast.

Now the good and bad news: The audio subsystem, even with the equalizer adjusted to cut off low frequencies, even with the audio software's subwoofer volume slider turned down all the way, the z-640's subwoofer STILL insists on churning out a lot of noise.
So it's time to bust the thing open and do some surgery. Sorry PC's, but until you're sentient, I reserve the right to forcibly silence you.🙂
 
Originally posted by: Jeff7
I gots mah new motherboard and other fine hardware.
The system flies. I went from a 2GHz AthlonXP Mobile to a 2.4GHz Core2Duo. Even just one core is considerably faster, though it'd be great if more apps could use both cores at once. And 2GB of RAM, plus a 7800GT videocard to replace my 9800 Pro. It's all nice and fast.

Now the good and bad news: The audio subsystem, even with the equalizer adjusted to cut off low frequencies, even with the audio software's subwoofer volume slider turned down all the way, the z-640's subwoofer STILL insists on churning out a lot of noise.
So it's time to bust the thing open and do some surgery. Sorry PC's, but until you're sentient, I reserve the right to forcibly silence you.🙂
Click to expand...

🙁

Good luck!
 
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