Second Amendment case headed to Court

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
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http://www.scotusblog.com/mova...7/second_amendmen.html

UPDATE Tuesday a.m. Attorneys for the D.C. citizens who challenged the local handgun control law said Tuesday they will join in urging the Supreme Court to hear the city's appeal. They will oppose an extension of time to file the city's petition, however.

Local government officials in Washington, D.C., announced Monday they will appeal to the Supreme Court in a major test case on the meaning of the Second Amendment. The key issue in the coming petition will be whether the Amendment protects an individual right to have guns in one's home -- an issue on which there is now a clear conflict among federal Circuit Courts. The city will be defending the constitutionality of a local handgun control law that is regarded as the strictest in the nation.

The petition would have been due Aug. 7, but city officials said Monday that they would ask Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., for a 30-day extension of time to file the case. Mayor Adrian M. Fenty and city Attorney General Linda Singer disclosed the appeal plan at a press conference, along with local Police Chief Cathy Lanier. (A news release announcing the action can be found here ) The Mayor said: "We have made the determination that this law can and should be defended and we are willing to take our case to the highest court in the land to protect the city's residents. Our handgun law has saved countless lives -- keeping guns out of the hands of those who would hurt others or themselves."

The D.C. Circuit Court ruled on March 9 that the Second Amendment does guarantee an individual right to possess a gun -- at least within one's own home. The ruling was the first by a federal appeals court to strike down a gun control law based on that view of the Amendment's reach. The case is Parker, et al., v. District of Columbia (Circuit docket 04-7041). On May 8, the Circuit Court refused by a 6-4 vote to rehear the case en banc. The mandate is scheduled to be issued Aug. 7, but will be withheld after the city files its Supreme Court petition. Thus, the existing gun law would remain in effect temporarily.

In an earlier filling in the D.C. Circuit, city officials said their appeal to the Supreme Court would present some variation of these questions: "(1) whether the panel majority's decision conflicts with the Supreme Court's decision in United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), as Judge [Karen LeCraft] Henderson concluded in dissenting from the panel majority's decision; (2) whether the Second Amendment protects firearms possession or use that is not associated with service in a State militia; (3) whether the Amendment applies differently to the District because of its constitutional status, as Judge Henderson also concluded; and (4) whether the challenged laws represent reasonable regulation of whatever rights the Amendment protects." The city noted that the panel had acknowledged that its ruling conflicts with decisions "of most other federal courts of appeals, many State courts, and the highest local court in this jurisdiction, the District of Columbia Court of Appeals."

The Circuit Court majority found that one of the six Washington residents who filed the challenge to the local gun control law had a right to bring the lawsuit. That individual is Dick Anthony Heller, a special police officer who works at the Federal Judicial Center (home of the Administrative Office of U.S. Courts) near Capitol Hill in Washington. He is licensed to carry a handgun on his job, but he applied for permission to have a pistol in his home; he was denied a license under the local law. Heller has said in court papers that he lives in a high-crime neighborhood in the city.

Heller, according to the Circuit Court, had standing to sue to challenge the gun registration provisions of the local law, as well as the clause that bars anyone from carrying a pistol without a license and a provision requiring all owners of licensed guns to keep them disassembled or with a trigger lock engaged when not in use.

The D.C. law has been in effect for nearly 31 years -- since September 1976. The lawsuit to strike it down was filed in February 2003.

Holy crap, this could be a very very good thing for gun owners/collectors. It could easily pave the way to strike down gun control laws nationwide.
 

ScottMac

Moderator<br>Networking<br>Elite member
Mar 19, 2001
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Well, we can hope.

Next: Universal Concealed Carry

Thanks for the post.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
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Yup, very doubtful that this would help much at universal ccw, but I'm with ya.
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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The Mayor said: "We have made the determination that this law can and should be defended and we are willing to take our case to the highest court in the land to protect the city's residents. Our handgun law has saved countless lives -- keeping guns out of the hands of those who would hurt others or themselves."

What city does this idiot mayor live in? There's 2 types of people who live in DC: Rich white collar politicians and those that feed off of them, and gangsters in the ghetto who are making things worse for everyone (An oversimplification). Now is that handgun law preventing rich white collar politicians from killing left and right? Would they be out in the streets shooting each other Aaron Burr style if not for this law? How about the drug dealers and gang members? Are they choosing to respect this law rather than all of the other ones that they break on a daily basis?

Adrian Fenty is just the latest in a long line of pathetic D.C. mayors, and it's a shame that the capital of our nation is in such a state. I don't know how these people can stand there and make the arguments that they do: the proof is in the pudding and there's no denying that DC has major problems. Has gun crime gone down since the ban on handguns? No? Then the ban on handguns didn't work. It's as simple as that.
 

amddude

Golden Member
Mar 9, 2006
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Good news kids. The Brady campaign sent out an email recently that was all concerned about this and asking for donations. I think this will end well for gun owners.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Keep in mind that the Supreme Court is under no obligation to hear this case (though I suspect the Roberts court might be inclined to).
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: TallBill
Holy crap, this could be a very very good thing for gun owners/collectors.

It could easily pave the way to strike down gun control laws nationwide.

or it could go the other way and result in a round up of all citizens guns not in law enforcement or political positions.

I'm sure the USSC will vote for rounding up all guns per the Republican regime doctrine of total control of the U.S.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: TallBill
Holy crap, this could be a very very good thing for gun owners/collectors.

It could easily pave the way to strike down gun control laws nationwide.

or it could go the other way and result in a round up of all citizens guns not in law enforcement or political positions.

I'm sure the USSC will vote for rounding up all guns per the Republican regime doctrine of total control of the U.S.

:roll:

Something about your posts makes me want to send a check to the RNC (an organization I am about as inclined to contribute to as NAMBLA).
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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I don't know, it doesn't sounds like much of a development to me but maybe I am not understanding it thoroughly.

I am right now going through the process of obtaining a pistol permit in NY state (westchester county). It is such a ridiculous grueling experience obviously meant to deter people from going through the process. I completely consider it an infringement of the 2nd amendment.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: TallBill
Holy crap, this could be a very very good thing for gun owners/collectors.

It could easily pave the way to strike down gun control laws nationwide.

or it could go the other way and result in a round up of all citizens guns not in law enforcement or political positions.

I'm sure the USSC will vote for rounding up all guns per the Republican regime doctrine of total control of the U.S.

Guns will never be rounded up. The casualties of such an operation would make Iraq seem paltry by comparison. You'd have police cars in Ohio getting hit with IEDs.

But yay for this case. If there's a broad enough ruling, we could see NFA, GCA and all that other nasty crap struck down in federal courts across the country.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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What they need is a mass march and demonstration with about 1,000,000 people all carrying their own handgun.
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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I was just looking through Wikipedia and decided to look up some numbers. Many of the gun grabbers in DC argue that gun crime is still a problem in DC because of the lax gun laws in neighboring Virginia and Maryland (relatively speaking). Fairfax county borders DC on the western side of the Potomac, as of 2005 has a population of 1,041,200, and suffered from 20 murders in that same year (unknown if they were gun related). For DC, the population for 2005 was 550,521 (fully 1/2 of FFX county), yet DC suffered from 195 murders that same year. So per capita, a resident of DC is 20 times more likely to be murdered than a resident of the next county to the west. If the availability of guns was the reason for this, why aren't Fairfax County residents killing each other left and right?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Gun control is still an explosive political issue---in such cases---especially lately---its probable that SCOTUS will figure out some reason to avoid taking on the case.
 

amddude

Golden Member
Mar 9, 2006
1,711
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Originally posted by: Triumph
I was just looking through Wikipedia and decided to look up some numbers. Many of the gun grabbers in DC argue that gun crime is still a problem in DC because of the lax gun laws in neighboring Virginia and Maryland (relatively speaking). Fairfax county borders DC on the western side of the Potomac, as of 2005 has a population of 1,041,200, and suffered from 20 murders in that same year (unknown if they were gun related). For DC, the population for 2005 was 550,521 (fully 1/2 of FFX county), yet DC suffered from 195 murders that same year. So per capita, a resident of DC is 20 times more likely to be murdered than a resident of the next county to the west. If the availability of guns was the reason for this, why aren't Fairfax County residents killing each other left and right?

Gun banning arguments are primarily emotional, not factual in nature.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
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dmocowen, I disagree that if it went bad that it would cause more immediate troubles. Plenty of states are fairly pro gun and could have bans already in place. Giving a defacto gun ban a constitutional OK wouldn't force anyone to rush out and make more.

And Nebor, the '86 NFA would/could hopefully go away if this went right, but not so sure about the '34 NFA. Regulation is still allowed.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: Triumph
I was just looking through Wikipedia and decided to look up some numbers. Many of the gun grabbers in DC argue that gun crime is still a problem in DC because of the lax gun laws in neighboring Virginia and Maryland (relatively speaking). Fairfax county borders DC on the western side of the Potomac, as of 2005 has a population of 1,041,200, and suffered from 20 murders in that same year (unknown if they were gun related). For DC, the population for 2005 was 550,521 (fully 1/2 of FFX county), yet DC suffered from 195 murders that same year. So per capita, a resident of DC is 20 times more likely to be murdered than a resident of the next county to the west. If the availability of guns was the reason for this, why aren't Fairfax County residents killing each other left and right?

This is specious reasoning at best. It's clear DC would have significant violent crime in any event, but there is no question that Virginia guns are involved in many many DC shootings. I have read estimates that more than half of all shootings in New York, much further away, are done with guns originally purchased in Virginia. Crime rates in Virginia are irrelevant to this issue.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,777
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Gun control is still an explosive political issue---in such cases---especially lately---its probable that SCOTUS will figure out some reason to avoid taking on the case.

Yea, if I had to bet on this it would be against the SC hearing the case.
 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
6,439
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: TallBill
Holy crap, this could be a very very good thing for gun owners/collectors.

It could easily pave the way to strike down gun control laws nationwide.

or it could go the other way and result in a round up of all citizens guns not in law enforcement or political positions.

I'm sure the USSC will vote for rounding up all guns per the Republican regime doctrine of total control of the U.S.

Trying to round up all the guns from citizens might bring on a revolution; and not the tyoe of one you are hoping for.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Gun control is still an explosive political issue---in such cases---especially lately---its probable that SCOTUS will figure out some reason to avoid taking on the case.

They don't need a reason - they just have to deny certiorari. They do not state reasons for accepting or denying particular cases, and a denial of cert has no precedential value.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: Triumph
I was just looking through Wikipedia and decided to look up some numbers. Many of the gun grabbers in DC argue that gun crime is still a problem in DC because of the lax gun laws in neighboring Virginia and Maryland (relatively speaking). Fairfax county borders DC on the western side of the Potomac, as of 2005 has a population of 1,041,200, and suffered from 20 murders in that same year (unknown if they were gun related). For DC, the population for 2005 was 550,521 (fully 1/2 of FFX county), yet DC suffered from 195 murders that same year. So per capita, a resident of DC is 20 times more likely to be murdered than a resident of the next county to the west. If the availability of guns was the reason for this, why aren't Fairfax County residents killing each other left and right?

This is specious reasoning at best. It's clear DC would have significant violent crime in any event, but there is no question that Virginia guns are involved in many many DC shootings. I have read estimates that more than half of all shootings in New York, much further away, are done with guns originally purchased in Virginia. Crime rates in Virginia are irrelevant to this issue.

So your point is that the bad guys are going to get guns regardless of the local law therefor there is no good reason to restrict law abiding citizens from purchasing and owning guns?
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
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Originally posted by: DonVito
They don't need a reason - they just have to deny certiorari. They do not state reasons for accepting or denying particular cases, and a denial of cert has no precedential value.
Yup, aka "Punt". ;)

It might be a 50/50 at this point as to whether the SCOTUS will hear the case. Normally I would anticipate a punt on this, but with the different federal circuit courts coming to completely opposite conclusions is a pretty strong indicator that the supreme court needs to clarify one way or the other.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: Darwin333

So your point is that the bad guys are going to get guns regardless of the local law therefor there is no good reason to restrict law abiding citizens from purchasing and owning guns?

Not necessarily.

Personally, I am a gun owner and don't think absolute bans on gun ownership make sense. That said, I can understand why communities riddled with gun violence impose laws like these. I don't live in such a community and don't really feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to how the DC legislature chooses to handle things.

I do think, however, that states like Virginia, that have exceedingly liberal gun-purchase laws, aggravate the problems associated with gun violence, as they are the source of many of the guns on the black markets that exist in our cities' streets. I endorse reasonable regulations of gun purchasing and ownership, including licensing, waiting periods and background checks.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
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Originally posted by: DonVito
I endorse reasonable regulations of gun purchasing and ownership, including licensing, waiting periods and background checks.

I find all of those things thoroughly unreasonable. That's a lot of ways to deny someone their right to self defense.

And licensing is registration. And registration is confiscation.

PS, "black market" guns are usually stolen from law abiding gun owners. Real black market guns, like machine guns and such are simply brought across the borders, and the ATF has no record of it ever being in the country.

It'll be nice if the 1986 closing of the NFA registry to new machine guns is reversed, and we can buy new machine guns again. Simultaneously, my ~$50,000 worth of machine guns will all of a sudden be worth $3000 or so. :(
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Gun control is still an explosive political issue---in such cases---especially lately---its probable that SCOTUS will figure out some reason to avoid taking on the case.

Yea, if I had to bet on this it would be against the SC hearing the case.

Normally I agree that they'd avoid it on some technicality, but in this case I don't think they can. It's DC, center of all politics, and it's come down on the side of gun owners (which gun grabbers in current power won't be willing to let stand). If they do refuse to hear it, then gun owners win of course, so it's all good.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: tagej
Originally posted by: DonVito
They don't need a reason - they just have to deny certiorari. They do not state reasons for accepting or denying particular cases, and a denial of cert has no precedential value.
Yup, aka "Punt". ;)

It might be a 50/50 at this point as to whether the SCOTUS will hear the case. Normally I would anticipate a punt on this, but with the different federal circuit courts coming to completely opposite conclusions is a pretty strong indicator that the supreme court needs to clarify one way or the other.

Oooh yeah, forgot about that. Didn't the 9th find it a collective right, and now the 4th found it an individual right? I don't see how SCOTUS could allow directly opposing interpretations of an amendment...it would cause all kinds of issues.