SDR/DDR motherboard

[mb2]

i'd like a motherboard that has the following options;

SDR and DDR support
onboard video and sound
fast ethernet
usb 2.0
4x AGP

and ideally;
8xAGP
overclocking features.

all other things equal, mATX would be nice, but by no means essential, and if the best board is ATX then thats what i'll go with i guess.

it needs to be as cheap as possible, and available in the UK. p4 or AMD socket A.
best i have so far i think is the MSI KM2M Combo-L at £38 from ebuyer.. be nice to be cheaper.. i dont think it has very good OC features, but could i use wire tricks with little risk of wreaking anything?


a little background;
what i want to do is update the old machine i have (cel 400) and give it to my mom for email/word type stuff. i plan to put either an athlon XP mobile 1500, Duron mobile 1000, or a 1600 duron (desktop) chip in it.. slap on a £5 HS, and put it along with the SDR ram (and HDD/CD drives/case) i have now. DDR can then be added later perhaps. either that or put a mobile P4 1.7ghz in it (obviously with a P4 mobo).
having said that it will be for office/internet use, the better the onboard video the better.. but i am not expecting anything good obviously.

hopefully someone can help!!

PS: ebuyer and savastore.com are the only real places which sell old mobos at good prices in the UK i have found. anyone know of others?

 

[Insane3D]

AFAIK, there aren't really any of thse available anymore. There was the K7S5A, but it's out of production AFAIK. You will be hard pressed to find any I think.

 

[Twista]

i did the same thing as you. I went from sdram/ddr mobo to something way faster now lol. And double the ram. I had a shuttle ak32l but dont get it if you want a radeon card.

gl

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: mb2
i'd like a motherboard that has the following options;

SDR and DDR support
onboard video and sound
fast ethernet
usb 2.0
4x AGP

Can't help you with vendors in the U.K., but if you're going to find a board meeting these requirements, it will probably be one of the following (based on recent availability):

MSI KM2M Combo-L: Duron up to 1800 and XP up to 2600+. I've used one and no major complaints. I believe the ATX12V connector is required. The integrated ProSavage video has anemic performance in 3D, but sufficient 2D/Video performance as long as you're not trying to drive monitors larger than 17" or resolutions greater than 1024x768@32bit. I used an AGP card for the most part. An inexpensive ATI Radeon 7000/7200 or nVidia GF4 MX440 AGP with 32MB~64MB would readily out-perform the integrated ProSavage.

Contrary to MSI's support chart, Thorton processors will run fine on this board. The processor name string fudges a few characters when a Thorton is installed, reporting Athlon[tm] "proswsser" instead of "processor", but the name string is just for looks and has no bearing on function. I tested a Thorton XP2600+ on this board under load without problem.


BIOSTAR M7VIG Pro: Not to be confused with M7VIG Pro "D", which only offers DDR slots. Virtually identical to the MSI model, and many have reported its a solid board (albiet with all of the KM266's limitations).


ECS K7S5A Pro: Venerable oldie but goodie. Lacks the integrated video, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. See inexpensive AGP card recommendations above. Standard ATX board.


In the S478/P4 department, you might be able to find...

ASUS P4S533-MX: Great chipset, but many reports of buggy drivers for the integrated SIS graphics. Celeron up to 2.8GHz and P4 up to 3.06GHz with HT support. Very similar to P4SGX-MX.


ASROCK (P4)M266A: P4 up to 3.06GHz w/HT. Same anemic graphics as the KM266.

 

[Peter]

With SDR RAM, you definitely do not want integrated VGA nor do you want to use a P4 with it. Both suffer badly from low bandwidth RAM. Go with a VGAless Athlon/Duron solution.

 

[mb2]

'Go with a VGAless Athlon/Duron solution.'

i thought a PC wouldn't run if there was no VGA (card or onbaord) ?

well most onboard video only goes up to 166.. 180 something OCed.. it wont be used for any gaming i doubt.. as i understand it the onboard video would be lammee (compared even to NF2 onboard VGA).. they all seem to be VIA or SIS.. which is the better chipset (/maker?)
wouldn't the P4-M be less affected by the FSB limitations as it has more cache.. and ususally runs @ 100fsb but i could run @ 133fsb? but i suppose generally atleast you are right about the P4s loving bandwidth.. hmm. does anyone know what core the 1.7ghz P4-Ms are? the desktop 1.7ghz P4s are willamette.. how is that core/architechture? and is it affected by FSB changes as much as the northwoods?

'long as you're not trying to drive monitors larger than 17" or resolutions greater than 1024x768@32bit' if i was going to be doing that, i wouldn't be using old SDR ram
could it take 1200x800 (ish) with 16bit? not that its likely to ever run w/ a monitor capable of that.

'Thorton processors will run fine on this board' will bartons run (underclocked, or XP-m) ?

thanks v. much tcsenter,very useful post.. and thanks for the links aswell.. just the sort of thing i was looking for out of the question.. (other posts have been useful aswell though)..

i'd like to get an AGP card, but for this 'ultimate budget' upgrade.. when i can't justify the cost of DDR ram (yet), an AGP card cannot be justified on an office/internet build (~£20 min).. and its for my mother so i doubt it will see any games atall, unless my PC breaks... and theres always the AGP slot there if i want to add games.. if i really felt there were great advantages of a board w/o onbaord graphcis and even cheaper, then i guess i could get an ATI rage or something off ebay for v. cheap... so what is the 'best' games these respective onboard graphics will handle? like would they run driver, or crazy taxi, or GTA3? when i say 'run' i mean any res (suggest which it would run) and 30fps ish. ie not 'choppy' is all.
would the onboard graphics run the latest screensavers and visualisations? (are they GPU based atall??)
what is the best onboard graphics of those motherboards suggested? is it a noticeable difference?
so far i have found the Asus P4S533-MX (£40) and the MSI kM2M (£38).. [before reading the replies] are these boards actually still in production or just old ones knocking about? now i have some more names i'll google 'em and see if they're available anywhere..

also what is the lowest p4-m with HT? and the lowest desktop p4 (w/ HT)?

and is there a 'solution' to the Asus's onobard graphics drives.. ie if you install X drivers then it will be fine?

would i encounter any problems setting the multiplier and voltages with socket wire tricks??

thanks all..

 

[OLtimrNewbie]

I have 2 (TWO) KM2M Combo boards. Both have been RMA'd and both still have problems !!! Stay away from MSI MB's; or at least stay away from the KM2M issue !!! I'd sell these ones; if I thought I'd get more than the shipping would cost ! (Really just joking ... I wouldn't want to foist these problems on another buyer)

 

[Steve]

VGAless means a board without integrated VGA.

 

[mb2]

OLtimrNewbie, what problems have you had with them? on ebuyer reviews (i'm pretty sure they're uncensored, cuz some things get hammered) most are positive.. although i guess you aren't exactly alone in having problems with it.. hmm i haven't found any others for socket A and if i get a chache-burnt 2600XP for p&p price off someone then i guess i'll be going with socket A.. and i haven't seen any others (for Socket A) yet but i'd need to spend more time looking.. and who knows if they'd be more reliable?? are MSI generally known as bad?

could people try to answer my other questions in the previous thread(s), like is VIA or SIS chipsets better? and which onboard vid is better, and what to expect of it..

 

[OLtimrNewbie]

Hello again mb2
Two boards but different problems. #1 - Voltage regulator ran amok and fried a PCI Raid card; and somehow totalled one of the HDDs connected to the PCI card. Came back from RMA; and using the utility supplied with the MB disc I could watch the voltage fluctuations go beyond limits. #2 - Flaky onboard video and onboard LAN. Also RMA's and came back no different. Lest anyone think I have a Power supply problem... two different Power supplies from different manufacturers and lots of Voltage and amps ( enermax 365W and a OKIA 420W ) Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw. There's very likely bad batches of MB's from other makers. MSI did have some problems with leaky capacitors a few years ago; but they say they got past that point by changing suppliers. Like we say in North America; don't buy a car that was produced on a Monday or Friday.....Quality sucks! Maybe the same thing happens with MB's

 

[OLtimrNewbie]

mb2; Check out the ASUS P4S533-MX. It has SDR/DDR memory slots. It's an Intel CPU board; not the AMD CPU. I put one of these together for my daughter abour 4 months ago; and so far no problems.Go to http://www.asus.com and follow the links > Canada or North America > Motherboards then scan down the listed socket types until you spot P4S533-MX and clik on it. Powerful board. Good Luck

 

[tcsenter]

'long as you're not trying to drive monitors larger than 17" or resolutions greater than 1024x768@32bit' if i was going to be doing that, i wouldn't be using old SDR ram

I don't see why not. Whether the system RAM is SDR or DDR has little bearing on what resolutions and refresh rates can be supported. Old VGA cards with 8MB SDRAM can competently support resolutions up to 1600 x 1200 @ 85MHz.

'Thorton processors will run fine on this board' will bartons run (underclocked, or XP-m) ?

An Athlon XP-M will POST as "Unknown CPU Type" in the KM2M, but it seems to run just fine. I can't say what multiplier will be used by default when any given XP-M is present and the board offers no multiplier adjustment. I don't know how a Barton would be received.

As for the performance of the KM266 integrated ProSavage, if I recall correctly, the KM2M I used scored something like 600 in 3DMark2001 SE, but that was with a Duron. By comparison, my ATI Rage128 Pro 32MB AGP4x scored around 1200 using the same setup. Its fairly awful for 3D rendering, but 2D/video performance is quite adequate for general purpose computing (office apps, web browsing, etc). It might run older 3D games tolerably, I can't say.

I found this test report of Premio PC's KM266-based computer:

Premio M266 Performance Report

SIS may have resolved those problems with integrated graphics drivers. The reviews on which I'm basing those comments are fairly dated (2002~2003), so it is likely SIS has made improvements in subsequent driver releases. The P4S533-MX is probably the stronger chipset if you're running P4 with DDR RAM, but hindering the P4, or worse, Celeron with SDR would eliminate any performance advantage.

I have 2 (TWO) KM2M Combo boards. Both have been RMA'd and both still have problems !!! Stay away from MSI MB's; or at least stay away from the KM2M issue !!! I'd sell these ones; if I thought I'd get more than the shipping would cost ! (Really just joking ... I wouldn't want to foist these problems on another buyer)

I've had 3 (THREE) KM2M Combo boards. No major issues.

 

[tcsenter]

So are we going to get an update on your choice?

 

[mb2]

The MSI KM2M Combo-L is the only Socket A SDR/DDR motherboard with onboard VGA etc etc that i could find.. here

i can get an unlocked 2600 with burnt out cache (works prime stable @ 2ghz though, w/ 64kb L2 cache) for just the price of generous P&P.. so as nice as the thought of getting a P4/Asus system for cheap is (that doesn't happen often!).. perhaps i'll have to miss that one, as for the price of just a motherboard and a little bit u can't beat it.

and a case here; (picture is wrong, see here - apparently its the one with a 'silver and dark blue' facia) ...as i'd need a PSU anyway, and judging by below;....

'For reference I am using:

-MSI KM2M mobo'
[review of case on ebuyer]

...it has the 'P4' connector required ??, as i'm pretty sure he didn't change the PSU. although i dont know who makes the PSU, all reports so far is that its decent/reliable [for a low-power PC], and the case+psu is cheaper than anything near a decent PSU anyway (or case for that matter).

tcsenter, sure the 2600 works? it is 333fsb by default, but as i say its unlocked anyway. its tbred, b i think... did u have any 'minor' issues with the KM2Ms? did u use the onbaord lan/sound/video?

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: mb2
...it has the 'P4' connector required ??, as i'm pretty sure he didn't change the PSU. although i dont know who makes the PSU, all reports so far is that its decent/reliable [for a low-power PC], and the case+psu is cheaper than anything near a decent PSU anyway (or case for that matter).

tcsenter, sure the 2600 works? it is 333fsb by default, but as i say its unlocked anyway. its tbred, b i think... did u have any 'minor' issues with the KM2Ms? did u use the onbaord lan/sound/video?

KM2M does not support 333FSB. It supports 200FSB and 266FSB processors but you might get 280FSB with the FSB adjustment in BIOS. There are no voltage or multiplier adjustments, so you are stuck with the defaults unless you modify the board or the processor. I have no advice there.

I believe the P4 connector is required or this board will not boot. If the PSU in this case does not have the P4 connector, you can buy an adapter that will convert a standard drive power connector (Molex) to a P4-type connector. I would look into a low profile cooling fan with an all copper heatsink for keeping the temps under control in such a compact space.

All I can say about the onboard hardware is that I tested them and they worked. I have those devices disabled much of the time because I use expansion cards for LAN and video, and I rarely use the audio on my computers.

 

[tcsenter]

Also...

Have you considered this ASUS P4SP-MX mainboard for S478 P4/CEL up to 3.06GHz? Its less expensive than the KM2M and supports Prescott (533FSB). The on-board audio is also heads above the KM2M.

Some other options, if you can find them:

AMD Processor

ECS K7VMM+ KM266/VT8235

PC CHIPS M825G V8.0 KM266/VT8235

Intel Processor

ECS P4VMM2 V5.x P4M266A/VT8235

PC CHIPS M925G V8.0 P4M266A/VT8235


The M825G and M925G are very recent models. ECS and PC Chips are usually good about providing more broad support in BIOS than for just the "official" supported processors. Many ECS and PC Chips Socket A boards will correctly identify just about everything AMD; Athlon MP, Athlon XP-M, Barton and Thorton.

This won't make a 333FSB processor run at 333FSB if the mainboard only does 266FSB, of course. But "Mobile Athlon XP-M" looks better than "Unknown CPU Type".

 

[mb2]

as for the ASUS P4SP-MX mainboard; reading from review..

'I bought 3 of these and 11 of the P4S533MX boards and they seem identical other than these ones only have DDR memory slots'

.. these dont have SDR memory slots. the P4S533MX is the version with the SDR aswell.. which i can get here for roughly the same price [or other places for a little more].
despite the Asus being a better board, as you have said the P4s take a whacking at low FSB, as shown with the celeron.. and i can get a 2600 'duron' v. cheaply..
i dont mind setting the multi/voltages using wire tricks if i have to.. aslong as it will work? i dont mind running it a little underclocked either.
also what is the chance that my ram might not work with the board?? i dont know what brand it is.. i just asked for 256mb of ram from a small PC upgrade store and thats what they gave me back in the day when i knew nothing about hardware.. and it worked fine (although its at 66fsb with the cel.. ekk lol, its pc133 though)
are there any bios updates/ modded bioses that allow voltage/multi changes with the bios with this board?

'I tested a Thorton XP2600+ on this board under load without problem.'
aren't thortons the ones with 333fsb.. and 256kb chache? like the one which i am getting? cept the cache prob).

if i put it in the motherboard without doing anything.. what would it all default to? would it boot up at 100fsb the first time and low voltage and 5x multiplier? or would it pick up from the pins the voltage and multiplier??
or would it just not work unless i did wire/socket tricks?
annnnd it wouldn't ever force trying 333fsb, roasting the board/stuff in PCI cards, would it?


this is the cooler i was planning to use.. it may end up being a tight fit but i'm sure i'll make it fit

 

[tcsenter]

as for the ASUS P4SP-MX mainboard; reading from review.... these dont have SDR memory slots.

DOH! My mistake. I saw the item photo used by Ebuyer and thought it had both. Anyhoo...

also what is the chance that my ram might not work with the board?? i dont know what brand it is.. i just asked for 256mb of ram from a small PC upgrade store and thats what they gave me back in the day when i knew nothing about hardware.. and it worked fine (although its at 66fsb with the cel.. ekk lol, its pc133 though)

I suppose as good a chance as any other supported RAM module not working. If its PC133, there should be no problem.

are there any bios updates/ modded bioses that allow voltage/multi changes with the bios with this board?

Not that I'm aware of. Its not an enthusiast board that would attract that kind of attention.

aren't thortons the ones with 333fsb.. and 256kb chache? like the one which i am getting? cept the cache prob)'

Thortons are 266FSB with 256KB L2 Cache.

if i put it in the motherboard without doing anything.. what would it all default to? would it boot up at 100fsb the first time and low voltage and 5x multiplier? or would it pick up from the pins the voltage and multiplier?? or would it just not work unless i did wire/socket tricks? annnnd it wouldn't ever force trying 333fsb, roasting the board/stuff in PCI cards, would it??

I don't know anything about this 2600+ with burnt cache.

The KM2M mainboard supports 200MHz and 266MHz FSB. The FSB is not auto-configured but is manually set by hardware jumper. There are some limited FSB adjustment in BIOS that allows you to overclock a little, but you're never going to get 333MHz FSB on the KM2M.

 

[mb2]

yea the ebuyer pictures aren't very reliable atall... it does show a picture with 4 ram slots like the SDR/DDR asus board.

'are there any bios updates/ modded bioses that allow voltage/multi changes with the bios with this board?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not that I'm aware of. Its not an enthusiast board that would attract that kind of attention.'

true for modded bioses i guess.. but no updates from MSI with support for this kind of thing?

'Thortons are 266FSB with 256KB L2 Cache.'
yea your right its the Tbred-B 2600 which has 333fsb.

'I don't know anything about this 2600+ with burnt cache.'
its just an unlocked t-bred B 333fsb 2600+ processor.. which happens to have had its cache burnt out (which shouldn't make any difference, other than a slight performance hit, and it may be detected as a duron, also high OCs are a no-go)

'The KM2M mainboard supports 200MHz and 266MHz FSB. The FSB is not auto-configured but is manually set by the jumper. There are some limited FSB adjustment in BIOS that allows you to overclock a little, but you're never going to get 333MHz FSB on the KM2M. '

ok.. i know i'm not going to get 333fsb.. i guess your answer what i was looking for is that u set it with the jumpers..

heres what i hope would happen..
set the jumper to 133 aka 266..
the 2600 would then boot up at 12.5x133=1666mhz, rather than the normal 12.5x166=2083mhz; giving me (just over) a 1600 duron.
then if i wished.. i could OC it by upping the FSB by a small amount as you described
or by upping the multiplier using wire tricks (leave this alone for a while if i can i think)

now my question is, would that work? would it run? would it run at the default 1.65v if i did nothing to it? or would it default to whatever the motherboards's default is?

 

[tcsenter]

I have no advice for you concerning modifications to the board or processor, including but not limited to, any wire tricks or processor unlocking. Sorry.

 

[mb2]

heres what i hope would happen..
set the jumper to 133 aka 266..
the 2600 would then boot up at 12.5x133=1666mhz, rather than the normal 12.5x166=2083mhz; giving me (just over) a 1600 duron.

now my question is, would that work? would it run? would it run at the default 1.65v if i did nothing to it? or would it default to whatever the motherboards's default is?

fine, but would this worrrrrrrrk? that involves no modifications to the board or processor.

i jusssst want to know, if the 2600 would work with the motherboard, albeit underclocked.. (!)

PS: the processor is already unlocked, i wasn't asking how to do that.. the only reason i was asking about the 'wire tricks' was because the board doesn't allow you to set the multi.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

personally, i think the option to continue using old SDR modules on a discontinued board/chipset along with old cpus is rather odd, unless of course you are budget bound. going with tried and true current parts like an NF7-S, a mobile 2600+, and 512 mb of dual channel pc3500 ram would have been a better idea, and would have cost ya less trouble
Reply to post before mine: yes it would run, but why use an ancient board with a new proc?

EDIT: if you want a good onboard everything built in solution this here is a great board, manufactured by ASUS under their ASRock budget name, i know you mentioned UK but this link is provided just to show you the mobo etc

 

[tcsenter]

the 2600 would then boot up at 12.5x133=1666mhz, rather than the normal 12.5x166=2083mhz; giving me (just over) a 1600 duron. now my question is, would that work? would it run? would it run at the default 1.65v if i did nothing to it? or would it default to whatever the motherboards's default is?

There is only one way to find out.

 

[mb2]

sheik124.. 'unless of course you are budget bound' yes. u'd have known this if you had read the thread fully/properly..

'going with tried and true current parts like an NF7-S, a mobile 2600+, and 512 mb of dual channel pc3500 ram would have been a better idea, and would have cost ya less trouble'
mhmm yeah thanks i am making a build similar for myself.. but i dont see why i should spend this amount of money on a PC for my mother which is going to be used for emailing and MS office97.

'There is only one way to find out. '
hmm there are 2 i think..
1) the hard way
2) ask someone who did number 1.

i'm trying to do 2. i guess i'll start a new thread and ask.