SD cards as backup device?

[paperfist]

Anyone know how reliable they are?

I didn't know till now that they have wireless SD cards and was just thinking how easy and low power it would be to set a few of them up as file storage. They would also let me setup a place to store files slightly away from my internet connection and hackers.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

[Billy Tallis]

Memory cards and USB drives tend to use lower-grade flash memory than SSDs, and the controllers in memory cards are usually less sophisticated. They should not be used for backups or archival. That's what hard drives are for.

 

[VirtualLarry]

1) SD cards are NOT "very reliable", at least, not in the same category as a 3.5" desktop HDD.

2) "Wireless" SD cards, probably don't work quite the way that you think that they do. They still have to be IN a device, and powered, to work. They're basically designed as a convenience feature. You load a "wireless" SD card into your digicam, and then when you return home, or in proximity to your home wifi, the card auto-uploads its contents, to your PC or NAS.


What you really, deep down inside, but can't admit it, is, you need a real NAS.

They make 1-bay NAS units, but those are basically external HDDs with an ethernet rather than a USB. (*OK, I jest, but only slightly.)

"Real" NAS units, with RAID support, start at 2-bay units, and go up from there. IF you're serious, I suggest starting at a 4-bay, although, the new QNAP TVS-951X looks really sweet to me. ($700! But it has 10Gbase-T, and support for 32GB of DDR4, Virtualization, here we come!)

 

[paperfist]

Lol
I'm trying to avoid adding another device like a NAS and the problem with them as you've noted is the price tag which would drive me to build my own but you're right it's probably an unavoidable dream.

You can't really make a NAS 'offline' right?

Hmm couldn't I just mount the WiFi SD cards in a reader? I was thinking that would work.

EDIT:*bleep* 32GB RAM!?!?!!!!?

 

[killster1]

In my mind he wanted a james bond type micro backup nas using a wifi sd card?

just get a 3 bay and drop 3x8tb. 32gb ram for what? the nas? 16 or 8 is fine. If planning on running plex or home server i dont think you would be considering a SD card file server

;( it sucks but why worry about backing up the backup. Yes you can have it offline only not online for the world so no one will know you like to take pictures of giraffes or what ever. For a lazy backup you can buy 2x4tb 2.5" usb hd plug to the back of a router and copy to both drives for redundancy. (i think my 50$ tmobile 68u? asus router has two usb spots for 2.5" usb drives to be used for file server and used offline only for me)

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Anyone know how reliable they are?

As others have pointed out, SD cards are here because they're cheap. Not because they're reliable.

You shouldn't trust a memory card further then you can throw it. (Which ironically can be a considerable distance...)

You can't really make a NAS 'offline' right?

External USB3 2.5"/3.5" HDD w/UASP + shutdown when not actually in use. Why over complicate things? You can even get external cases for two drives with built-in RAID1, if you're worried about drive failure.

If you need further reliability, then it's time to look at a NAS.

 

[ch33zw1z]

External hard drive will work.

Nothing gets stored on a flash drive that I don't have on 3 hard drives already, unless I don't need to keep the files

 

[mxnerd]

SD Card can be used as temporary storage, like copying files then transfer to another computer.

It's a very bad idea to use it as backup. Absolutely most unreliable media.

 

[paperfist]

In my mind he wanted a james bond type micro backup nas using a wifi sd card?

just get a 3 bay and drop 3x8tb. 32gb ram for what? the nas? 16 or 8 is fine. If planning on running plex or home server i dont think you would be considering a SD card file server

;( it sucks but why worry about backing up the backup. Yes you can have it offline only not online for the world so no one will know you like to take pictures of giraffes or what ever. For a lazy backup you can buy 2x4tb 2.5" usb hd plug to the back of a router and copy to both drives for redundancy. (i think my 50$ tmobile 68u? asus router has two usb spots for 2.5" usb drives to be used for file server and used offline only for me)

lol yeah time for me to bite the bullet instead of reinventing the wheel.

 

[paperfist]

As others have pointed out, SD cards are here because they're cheap. Not because they're reliable.

You shouldn't trust a memory card further then you can throw it. (Which ironically can be a considerable distance...)



External USB3 2.5"/3.5" HDD w/UASP + shutdown when not actually in use. Why over complicate things? You can even get external cases for two drives with built-in RAID1, if you're worried about drive failure.

If you need further reliability, then it's time to look at a NAS.

I know what your saying, but comparatively a16GB WiFi SD @ $40 isn't exactly cheap.

Thanks, I'll check those USB externals out.

I'm also looking for a way to keep my data secure. I have to store check copies for my business and currently I have to edit out the routing/account info.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I know what your saying, but comparatively a16GB WiFi SD @ $40 isn't exactly cheap.

Thanks, I'll check those USB externals out.

I'm also looking for a way to keep my data secure. I have to store check copies for my business and currently I have to edit out the routing/account info.

What are the security requirements?

 

[paperfist]

What are the security requirements?

There aren't any Mr w1z, it's voluntary. I just need to keep records for audits and it makes me nervous having an internet connection always on.

 

[mxnerd]

If you want absolutely low power file sharing, buy one of these travel routers and attached a portable drive.

Don't expect great performance though.

https://www.amazon.com/RAVPower-Wireless-Portable-Companion-Streamer/dp/B016ZWS9ZE

https://www.amazon.com/HooToo-Wireless-10400mAh-External-Performance/dp/B074LHG47K

Data Transfer Rate ( Wireless Backup) is only 3-7Mbps for HooToo device. probably only good for pictures and small files.

==

ASUS true NAS device 2-Bay AS1002T is just $119 at Fry's

https://www.frys.com/product/9570732

Power Consumption:
13.2W (Operation)
6.6W (Disk Hibernation)

https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/asustor-as1002t-nas-review,1.html

 

[ch33zw1z]

There aren't any Mr w1z, it's voluntary. I just need to keep records for audits and it makes me nervous having an internet connection always on.

Do you keep records on a PC or server strictly used for business transactions?

Disk encryption will only protect you in terms of physical theft, or if you leave the volume unmounted.

Othwrwise, sounds a bit more like network security is your concern

 

[paperfist]

Do you keep records on a PC or server strictly used for business transactions?

Disk encryption will only protect you in terms of physical theft, or if you leave the volume unmounted.

Othwrwise, sounds a bit more like network security is your concern

Server strictly for business and it sits behind a SonicWall. However a bookkeeps has log in access to it and I remote into it from within the network. I am just exploring options if any to keep the data more offline which I suppose is not 100% feasible.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Server strictly for business and it sits behind a SonicWall. However a bookkeeps has log in access to it and I remote into it from within the network. I am just exploring options if any to keep the data more offline which I suppose is not 100% feasible.

Encrypt your backup drives. Other than that....keep the sonicwall patched and don't drop service if you can afford it

 

[BSim500]

I just need to keep records for audits and it makes me nervous having an internet connection always on.

You can't really make a NAS 'offline' right?

Actually you can. It's not widely advertised but plugging some modern NAS's (eg, Synology) directly into a modern PC via the LAN port will show the same "connected over a network" result as plugging it into a router. You don't need "cross-over cables" anymore (LAN chips have had have auto-sensing for years), and you probably already need them both pre-configured to use Static IP's (eg, 192.168.1.2 for PC and 192.168.1.3 for NAS - as long as they're on the same Subnet and don't need to use DHCP). This also works with modern PC to PC transfers, eg, the other day I needed to backup a lot of data from a laptop with slow Wi-Fi to desktop. Since both have static IP's and are in the same room, I connected them both directly via 3m Ethernet cable and they instantly saw each other's shared folders and transferred at max +100MB/s speed first time. So technically, you can use some NAS's offline like external drives but using direct Ethernet cable instead of USB, without having them pass through the router. Of course, whether this is convenient or not depends on their location from each other and whether the PC's Ethernet port is already in use / you don't mind plugging / unplugging between backup vs Internet.

As for flash technology, it's literally the worst medium of all for long-term unpowered data retention / cold storage. The only reason some people still had readable photo's on very old 32-128MB (yes, Megabyte) SD cards pulled from a digital camera after a year or two unpowered was that the early cards were SLC / MLC and large node (+40nm) based. The old "1 year guaranteed JEDEC SSD chart (showing unpowered data retention in weeks vs temperature) that everyone loves to quote was based on 2013-2015 era Intel MLC SSD drives that use larger nodes and are now woefully outdated in 2018. Modern consumer flash is now all TLC and smaller node. The "future" is QLC, and PR statements of new QLC stuff sent to tech sites is "missing" its node-size and durability ratings for a reason (QLC PE cycles are down to just 100-300 cycles vs 50k-100k of SLC / 5k-10k of MLC / 1k-3k of TLC). For a small amount of data you write-once, throw in the back of a cupboard for several years and forget about, even burning 25GB HTL / MDISC BD-R's is far better than using anything based on increasingly leaky flash.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Indeed, good post. Also note, any nodes I dont want accessible from the internet, I config with static IPs and no default gateway....no dg means no internet, but works just fine on your lan. Sounds like that won't work for the OP though, bookkeeper remotes in.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

As for flash technology, it's literally the worst medium of all for long-term unpowered data retention / cold storage. The only reason some people still had readable photo's on very old 32-128MB (yes, Megabyte) SD cards pulled from a digital camera after a year or two unpowered was that the early cards were SLC / MLC and large node (+40nm) based. The old "1 year guaranteed JEDEC SSD chart (showing unpowered data retention in weeks vs temperature) that everyone loves to quote was based on 2013-2015 era Intel MLC SSD drives that use larger nodes and are now woefully outdated in 2018. Modern consumer flash is now all TLC and smaller node. The "future" is QLC, and PR statements of new QLC stuff sent to tech sites is "missing" its node-size and durability ratings for a reason (QLC PE cycles are down to just 100-300 cycles vs 50k-100k of SLC / 5k-10k of MLC / 1k-3k of TLC). For a small amount of data you write-once, throw in the back of a cupboard for several years and forget about, even burning 25GB HTL / MDISC BD-R's is far better than using anything based on increasingly leaky flash.

Modern TLC NAND is 3 dimentional. It's made (at least in Samsungs case) with a 40nm class process by sticking more layers on top in stead of smaller geometry. So 3D NAND should be a bit more reliable then the sub-20nm 2D planer stuff.

Otherwise agree.

 

[BSim500]

Modern TLC NAND is 3 dimentional. It's made (at least in Samsungs case) with a 40nm class process by sticking more layers on top in stead of smaller geometry. So 3D NAND should be a bit more reliable then the sub-20nm 2D planer stuff.

Well Samsung's first gen 850 3D NAND was 40nm. Since then though there have been rumors that Samsung has been shrinking it down to nearer 20nm again for the 860/960's. That would certainly explain the shrinking warranty sizes and lack of node-size info for newer drives (eg, 5-10 year 850 series vs only 3-5 year 860/960 series), not to mention how 860 ends up much cheaper than 850 (and close in price to the MX500 which is said to be using the 16-20nm 3D Intel/Micron process).

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Well Samsung's first gen 850 3D NAND was 40nm. Since then though there have been rumors that Samsung has been shrinking it down to nearer 20nm again for the 860/960's.

I thought that was due to the increase from 32 layers in the first gen to 64 layers in the fourth gen NAND. Not shrinking geometries. The new 64 layer NAND also has tremendous write endurance for a consumer drive (1200TB for the 1TB 860/970pro). That's 1200 P/E cycles guaranteed.

 

[BSim500]

I thought that was due to the increase from 32 layers in the first gen to 64 layers in the fourth gen NAND. Not shrinking geometries. The new 64 layer NAND also has tremendous write endurance for a consumer drive (1200TB for the 1TB 860/970pro). That's 1200 P/E cycles guaranteed.

It's said to be both increasing layers and shrinking nodes. Hence why they go into great detail when layers get increased yet have quietly removed all detail about the node size latter for post 850 series marketing or explained why warranties have halved for premium PRO's. 1.2PB endurance is impressive for the PRO's, but that's MLC which is expected (even 16nm planar MLC of old MX100/200's or 19nm Samsung 830's also hit +1PB in endurance tests).

In the context of this thread, most modern high capacity consumer mainstream SD cards aren't even labelled MLC / TLC anymore unless you go specifically looking for that label, eg, 64GB MLC cards for use in constant video write applications like dashcam / CCTV security devices that are barely any cheaper than "no-name" 128GB TLC's. The former have very poor GB/$ vs HDD's for offline backup device purposes whilst the latter are really not desirable for any long-term backup purposes if OP values his data. I had a 64GB micro-SD TLC in an old Sony MP3 player that I didn't use for a couple of years. When I removed it and put it into an SD reader, it was totally blank, not just the music gone but partition, file system, everything. Fortunately I had other backups, but personally, I wouldn't use any flash device as any form of unpowered long-term storage. If anyone here is using SSD's in external USB 3 enclosures as a backup drive, make sure you plug it in at least once every 2-3 months.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

It's said to be both increasing layers and shrinking nodes. Hence why they go into great detail when layers get increased yet have quietly removed all detail about the node size latter for post 850 series marketing or explained why warranties have halved for premium PRO's. 1.2PB endurance is impressive for the PRO's, but that's MLC which is expected (even 16nm planar MLC of old MX100/200's or 19nm Samsung 830's also hit +1PB in endurance tests).

Must have missed something then. It's hard to keep up 100% on every topic.

In the context of this thread, most modern high capacity consumer mainstream SD cards aren't even labelled MLC / TLC anymore unless you go specifically looking for that label, eg, 64GB MLC cards for use in constant video write applications like dashcam / CCTV security devices that are barely any cheaper than "no-name" 128GB TLC's. The former have very poor GB/$ vs HDD's for offline backup device purposes whilst the latter are really not desirable for any long-term backup purposes if OP values his data. I had a 64GB micro-SD TLC in an old Sony MP3 player that I didn't use for a couple of years. When I removed it and put it into an SD reader, it was totally blank, not just the music gone but partition, file system, everything. Fortunately I had other backups, but personally, I wouldn't use any flash device as any form of unpowered long-term storage.

That sounds familiar. I've had too many sudden death and blank SD cards to ever trust them again.

For archival purposes there is really nothing that can beat HDD for capacity-per-$ at this time. They should also be fairly reliable long term, I have a couple of 90's drives (WD Caviar 1210's MFD 1993) that still work perfectly. They're just too small for any serious purpose (210MB).

Really long term archiving is another matter entirely, and from what I can gather from various sources not a really solved problem.

Best bet as a regular consumer is regular copying to new media. Just make sure you have good data before and after copying.

If anyone here is using SSD's in external USB 3 enclosures as a backup drive, make sure you plug it in at least once every 2-3 months.

I'd include USB flash drives in your recommendation too.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I've toyed with the same idea myself. Flash memory degrades over time, so I was thinking I could buy new SD cards for my camera on a regular basis and the old ones would be recycled as backup/archive. That way I'm not using them in my camera waiting for them to die with thousands of pictures on them.

I think the issue though is they can actually die in storage. Especially if subjected to temperature extremes. I would store them in my server room filing cabinet as that's where all my backups are, and I currently have no climate control in there so the temp can drop down to like 10 degrees in there, but in summer it can go over 25 degrees, 27 is highest I've clocked it at. So it would see some pretty drastic temp variation, not sure how good that is.

Every time I look into different backup solutions I always find myself going back to hard drives though. Basically I treat them like tapes, and have a drive dock. I use rsync scripts to sync the backups from the server and then have a few rotations. Each drive has a file on it that is simply a pointer to a specific backup job, so that the same job runs for the same drive. So I just insert it and type a command and it finds it and runs the backup.

Since were on this subject though has anyone actually used LTO tapes in a home environment? It seems to me once you've invested in the actual tape drive I think it would end up cheaper per GB than hard drives especially if you go with an older generation like LTO4 or 5. I hear they are quite reliable, which is why corporations still use them. Less moving parts.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I've toyed with the same idea myself. Flash memory degrades over time, so I was thinking I could buy new SD cards for my camera on a regular basis and the old ones would be recycled as backup/archive. That way I'm not using them in my camera waiting for them to die with thousands of pictures on them.

I think the issue though is they can actually die in storage. Especially if subjected to temperature extremes. I would store them in my server room filing cabinet as that's where all my backups are, and I currently have no climate control in there so the temp can drop down to like 10 degrees in there, but in summer it can go over 25 degrees, 27 is highest I've clocked it at. So it would see some pretty drastic temp variation, not sure how good that is.

Every time I look into different backup solutions I always find myself going back to hard drives though. Basically I treat them like tapes, and have a drive dock. I use rsync scripts to sync the backups from the server and then have a few rotations. Each drive has a file on it that is simply a pointer to a specific backup job, so that the same job runs for the same drive. So I just insert it and type a command and it finds it and runs the backup.

Since were on this subject though has anyone actually used LTO tapes in a home environment? It seems to me once you've invested in the actual tape drive I think it would end up cheaper per GB than hard drives especially if you go with an older generation like LTO4 or 5. I hear they are quite reliable, which is why corporations still use them. Less moving parts.

They're not more reliable, especially outside of a environmentally controlled room. Tape storage, humidity, dirt / dust / debris. R/w heads need cleaning regular, the list goes on.

For my customers, tape falls into two categories. Those who do it as their process to meet audit requirements, and those who just do it cause that's how they do it.