'Scores of civilians' killed in Falluja

BBond

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Oct 3, 2004
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From Al Jazeera//Reuters

'Scores of civilians' killed in Falluja

Muhammad Abbud said he watched his nine-year-old son bleed to death at their Falluja home, unable to take him to hospital as fighting raged in the streets and bombs rained down on the Iraqi city.

In the midst of a US onslaught and hemmed in by a round-the-clock curfew, he said he had little choice but to bury his eldest son, Ghaith, in the garden.

"My son got shrapnel in his stomach when our house was hit at dawn, but we couldn't take him for treatment," said Abbud, a teacher. "We buried him in the garden because it was too dangerous to go out. We did not know how long the fighting would last."

Residents say scores of civilians have been killed or wounded in 24 hours of fighting since US-led forces pushed deep into the city on Monday evening.

Doctors said people brought in at least 15 dead civilians at the main clinic in Falluja on Monday. By Tuesday, there were no clinics open, residents said, and no way to count casualties.

Medical supplies low

US and Iraqi forces seized control of the city's main hospital, across the Euphrates river from Falluja proper, hours before the onslaught began.

Overnight US bombardments hit a clinic inside the Sunni Muslim city, killing doctores, nurses and patients, residents said. US military authorities denied the reports.

Interim Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said troops detained 38 fighters entrenched at Falluja Hospital and accused doctors there of exaggerating civilian casualties.

Sami al-Jumaili, a doctor at Falluja Hospital, said the city was running out of medical supplies.

"There is not a single surgeon in Falluja. We had one ambulance hit by US fire and a doctor wounded. There are scores of injured civilians in their homes whom we can't move," he said by telephone from a house where he had gone to help the wounded.

"A 13-year-old child just died in my hands."

Families flee

Weekend air raids destroyed a clinic funded by an Islamic relief organisation in the centre of Falluja and a nearby warehouse used to store medical supplies, witnesses said.

Many families fled the city of 300,000 long before the offensive began. An official from a Sunni Muslim group with links to some fighters in Falluja said on Monday only about 60,000 people remained.

Residents say they have no power and are using kerosene lamps at night. They say they keep to ground floors for safety. Food shops have been closed for six days.

"My kids are hysterical with fear," said Farhan Salih. "They are traumatised by the sound but there is nowhere to take them."

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said on Monday he did not foresee large numbers of civilian casualties in the assault, saying US forces were disciplined and precise.

Those words were of little comfort to the Abbud family, sitting in a house damaged by the bomb that killed their child.

"We just bandaged his stomach and gave him water, but he was losing a lot of blood. He died this afternoon," said Abbud.

Reuters


 

BBond

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Oct 3, 2004
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An eye witness account of the fighting in Falluja from BBC.

'Watching tragedy engulf my city'

US and Iraqi forces are locked in desperate street battles against insurgents in the Iraqi city of Falluja. The BBC News website spoke by phone to Fadhil Badrani, a journalist in Falluja who reports for the BBC World Service in Arabic.


"I am surrounded by thick black smoke and the smell of burning oil.

There was a big explosion a few minutes ago and now I can hear gunfire.

A US armoured vehicle has been parked on the street outside my house in the centre of the city.

From my window, I can see US soldiers moving around on foot near it.

They tried to go from house to house but they kept coming under fire.

Now they are firing back at the houses, at anything that moves. It is war on the streets.

The American troops look like they have given up trying to go into buildings for now and are just trying to control the main roads.

I am sitting here on my own, watching tragedy engulf my city.

Looks like Kabul

I was with some of the Falluja fighters earlier. They looked tired - but their spirits were high and they were singing.

Recently, many Iraqis from other parts of the country have been joining the local men against the Americans.

No one has had much sleep in the past two days of heavy fighting and of course, it is still Ramadan, so no one eats during the day.

I cannot say how many people have been killed but after two days of bombing, this city looks like Kabul.

Large portions of it have been destroyed but it is so dangerous to leave the house that I have not been able to find out more about casualties.

Mosques silent

A medical dispensary in the city centre was bombed earlier.

I don't know what has happened to the doctors and patients who were there.

It was last place you could get medical attention because the big hospital on the outskirts of Falluja was captured by the Americans on Monday.

A lot of the mosques have also been bombed.

For the first time in Falluja, a city of 150 mosques, I did not hear a single call to prayer this morning.

I broke my Ramadan fast yesterday with the last of our food - two potatoes and two tomatoes.

The tomatoes were rotten because we have no electricity to run the fridge.

My neighbours - a woman and her children - came to see me yesterday. They asked me to tell the world what is happening here.

I look at the devastation around me and ask - why?"

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
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'Body parts everywhere' in Fallujah
http://iafrica.com/news/worldnews/389225.htm
"Body parts everywhere!" cries a US soldier as a shell crashes onto a group of suspected rebels in the Iraqi city of Fallujah, where a punishing torrent of firepower thundered down on Tuesday.

More than 500 rounds of 155-millimetre Howitzer cannon shells have been fired on the besieged Sunni stronghold west of Baghdad since a US-Iraqi offensive to take control of the city started on Monday evening, said Sergeant Michael Hamby.

Using a global positioning system, each shell is precision aimed and fired at insurgent spots, while unmanned reconnaisance aircraft check whether the target was hit and feed back the information, Hamby told AFP.

Unconfirmed estimates suggest that as many as 100 000 residents of Fallujah could still be inside the city.

In the northwestern Jolan neighbourhood alone - branded the hotbed of insurgent activity in Fallujah - US forces unleashed more than 20 air strikes and some 60 artillery rounds on Monday, said Major Todd Desgrosseilliers.

"We probably had 20-to-30 air strikes in the Jolan and probably two-to-three times that in artillery missions," he said.

Attack helicopters swooped overhead, dropping flares on buildings from where the muzzle of insurgent rocket heads jutted out.

"Nothing is being indiscriminately fired at. These are spots where they (militants) are either getting ready to fight or already are," the major said.

Further demonstrating its superior firepower, the military said it fired an air-to-surface missile on a suspected insurgent building in Fallujah on Monday.

"The building was destroyed and enemy fire ceased," it said in a statement.

Casualty figures were unavailable from Fallujah, where estimates for the number of its 300 000-strong population who fled ahead of the long-threatened assault vary widely from 20 to 90 percent.

US warplanes pounded suspected rebel targets in the city over the past few weeks with air strikes on a daily basis in the build-up to the assault.

An AFP reporter in the Jolan district said one building in every 10 had been flattened. As US-led troops closed in on the neighbourhood overnight, at least four 900-kilogram bombs were dropped in the city's northwest.


A total of 16 Americans have been killed in the past two days across Iraq
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ne...ANS116&floc=NW_1-T
NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - U.S. Army and Marine units pushed into the center of Fallujah on Tuesday, fighting with bands of guerrillas in the streets and searching house to house in a powerful advance on the second day of a major offensive to retake the insurgent stronghold.

A total of 16 Americans have been killed in the past two days across Iraq - including three killed in Fallujah combat on Tuesday, two killed by mortars near the northern city of Mosul and 11 others who died Monday, most of them as guerrillas launched a wave of attacks in Baghdad and southwest of Fallujah.

The 11 deaths were the highest one-day U.S. toll in more than six months.

As fighting raged in Fallujah, Prime Minister Ayad Allawi declared a nighttime curfew in Baghdad and its surroundings - the first curfew in the capital for a year - a day after a string of insurgent attacks in the city killed nine Iraqis and wounded more than 80.

Several heavy explosions hit central Baghdad Tuesday after nightfall, followed by the rattle of small arms fire.

Anger over the assault on the mainly Sunni Muslim city of Fallujah grew among Iraq's Sunni minority, and voices abroad - including the United Nations' refugee agency and the Red Cross - expressed fears over civilians' safety.

An influential group of Iraqi Sunni clerics called for a boycott of the election. The vote is being held ``over the corpses of those killed in Fallujah,'' said Harith al-Dhari, director of the Association of Muslim Clerics.

If Sunnis refuse to vote on a large scale, it could wreck the legitimacy of the election, seen as vital in Iraq's move to democracy.

An estimated 6,000 U.S. troops and 2,000 allied Iraqi soldiers invaded the city from the north Monday night in a quick, powerful start to an offensive aimed at re-establishing government control ahead of the elections. The guerrillas fought off a bloody Marine offensive against the city in April.

On Tuesday, heavy street clashes were raging in Fallujah's northern neighborhoods. By midday, U.S. armored units had made their way to the highway running east-west through the city's center and crossed over into the southern part of Fallujah, a major milestone.

The military reported lighter-than-expected resistance in Jolan, a warren of alleyways in northwestern Fallujah where guerillas were believed to be at their strongest.

That could be a sign that insurgents left the city before the operation started or that the troops have not yet reached the center location to which the resistance has fallen back, Pentagon officials said in Washington.

U.S. officers said few civilians were trying to flee the city Tuesday. They said the bulk of the population of 200,000-300,000 left before the fighting and the rest were hunkered down because of a 24-hour curfew. U.S. troops were preventing most people from leaving, except in emergency cases. One funeral procession was allowed out of the city, U.S. officers said.

Before the Monday night attack, the U.S. military reported 42 insurgents killed, while Fallujah doctors reported 12 people dead. But since then, there has not been word of the Iraqi death toll.

U.S. forces cut off electricity to the city. Residents said they were without running water and were worried about food shortages because most shops in the city have been closed for the past two days.

``The north of the city is in flames. I can also see fire and smoke ... Fallujah has become like hell,'' Fadril al-Badrani, a resident in the center of Fallujah, said Monday night amid a heavy air and artillery barrage. He said hundreds of houses had been destroyed.

Allawi called on Fallujah's fighters to lay down their weapons to spare the city and allow government forces to take control, ``The political solution is possible even if military operations are ongoing,'' his spokesman said.

The Fallujah campaign has seen five deaths reported by the U.S. military: three troops killed and 14 wounded on Tuesday, and two Marines who died in a bulldozer accident Monday.

In Fallujah's urban battles Tuesday, small bands of guerrillas - fewer than 20 - were engaging U.S. troops, then falling back in the face of overwhelming fire from American tanks, 20mm cannons and heavy machine guns, said Time magazine reporter Michael Ware, embedded with troops. Ware reported that there appeared to be no civilians in the area he was in.

On one thoroughfare in the city, U.S. troops traded fire with gunmen holed up in a row of houses about 100 yards away. An American gunner on an armored vehicle let loose with his machine gun, grinding the upper part of a small building to rubble.

Elsewhere, witnesses reported seeing at least two American tanks engulfed in flames. A Kiowa helicopter flying over southeast Fallujah took groundfire, injuring the pilot, but he managed to return to the U.S. base.

The once constant artillery barrages were halted, since so many troops were inside the city. U.S. and Iraqi forces surrounded a mosque inside the city that was used as arms depot and insurgent meeting point, the BBC reported.

Col. Michael Formica, commander of the 1st Cavalry Division's 2nd Brigade, said Tuesday that a security cordon around the city will be tightened to ensure insurgents dressed in civilian clothing don't slip out.

``As we tighten the noose around (the enemy), he will move to escape to fight another day. I do not want these guys to get out of here. I want them killed or captured as they flee,'' he said.

Guerrilla violence continued elsewhere. Hundreds of militants swarmed the streets of Ramadi, another insurgent stronghold 70 miles west of Baghdad. Gunfire rang out in the city center, and a destroyed car smeared with blood was seen.

Some 10,000-15,000 U.S. troops have surrounded Fallujah, along with allies Iraqi forces, according to the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Gen. George Casey. Commanders estimate around 3,000 Sunni fighters are in Fallujah, perhaps around 20 percent of them foreign Islamic militants.

The question of casualties is a major factor in the offensive. Reports of hundreds of people killed during the Marine offensive in April outraged Iraqis and forced the Marines to pull back - allowing guerrillas to only strengthen their hold on the city.

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld insisted Monday, ``There aren't going to be large numbers of civilians killed and certainly not by U.S. forces.''

Allawi's government has also taken a prominent role in defending the assault - for which the prime minister gave the green light.

Still, it risks alienating Iraqis - particularly among the Sunni Arab minority. Industry Minister Hajim Al-Hassani, of the mainly Sunni Iraqi Islamic Party, quit the government Tuesday in protest.

Russia's Foreign Ministry warned that the attack could hurt the January election, saying the government is ``concerned that the actions in this region not worsen the conditions in Iraq as a whole''

Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa said he hoped the violence ``ends fast,'' adding that he was in touch with Iraqi officials. ``No one can ever accept the way civilians are struck in Fallujah,'' he told reporters.

The U.N. refugee agency said Tuesday that it was ``extremely concerned'' about tens of thousands of people who fled ahead of the Fallujah fighting - many of them now living in tents.

And the International Committee of the Red cross said it was ``very worried'' that some wounded Iraqis have been unable to receive medical care because of the fighting.
It's a good thing Bush decided to play politics with this offensive and wait until after the election.

Good for him.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
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may all the innocent who died rest in peace :(

rose.gif


I would appreciate it if you do not mix the deaths of innocent Fallujians with politics.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
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Originally posted by: Sultan
may all the innocent who died rest in peace :(

rose.gif


I would appreciate it if you do not mix the deaths of innocent Fallujians with politics.
Tell that to President Bush.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
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Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Sultan
may all the innocent who died rest in peace :(

rose.gif


I would appreciate it if you do not mix the deaths of innocent Fallujians with politics.
Tell that to President Bush.

I would if I could. I am urging you and others to do so.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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He wouldn't listen. To paraphrase Elwood Blues, "He's on a mission from God."

And 16 American GIs are dead today because of it. Actually, 17. One was killed in Baghdad today.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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It's a good thing Bush decided to play politics with this offensive and wait until after the election.

Weak argument. Everybody including the Iraqis knew this was coming since early oct.

 

Tarpon6

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May 22, 2002
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Well since it's too late to leave out politics.. I feel for the innocent Fallujans. I hope every one will be safe even though I know there will be collateral casualties. I hope every terrorist is eliminated. And Falluja and Iraq will be peaceful and democtratic. Good Bless the troops.

Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Sultan
may all the innocent who died rest in peace :(



I would appreciate it if you do not mix the deaths of innocent Fallujians with politics.
Tell that to President Bush.

 
May 10, 2001
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All civilians have had a chance to leave the city.

I pray that we stay the course in Iraq and that the lives that have been lost continue to be but a drop in the bucket in comparison to those that would have been lost had the bathist regime been left in power.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
All civilians have had a chance to leave the city.

I pray that we stay the course in Iraq and that the lives that have been lost continue to be but a drop in the bucket in comparison to those that would have been lost had the bathist regime been left in power.

Drop in the bucket? You better pray to turn back time then.

Not all civilians have left the city. Why should they have to leave their homes?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Originally posted by: Genx87
Right. Bush planned to delay the assault until after the elections

And like I said before.

And?

Who cares, it wasnt a huge secret either way.
And? Read that thread I linked to. It gave insurgents time to flee the city and for those remaining to fortify their positions. Never give the enemy a chance to flee. Oh wait...Bush already did that in Afghanistan. More of "staying the course", I suppose.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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And? Read that thread I linked to. It gave insurgents time to flee the city and for those remaining to fortify their positions. Never give the enemy a chance to flee. Oh wait...Bush already did that in Afghanistan. More of "staying the course", I suppose.

Like I asked the lastime.

Should we have just gone in there early Oct guns ablazing killing anything that moved?
You want it both ways here.

Dont go in but should have gone in right away to keep some from fleeing.

Which is it?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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Originally posted by: Genx87
And? Read that thread I linked to. It gave insurgents time to flee the city and for those remaining to fortify their positions. Never give the enemy a chance to flee. Oh wait...Bush already did that in Afghanistan. More of "staying the course", I suppose.
Like I asked the lastime.

Should we have just gone in there early Oct guns ablazing killing anything that moved?
You want it both ways here.

Dont go in but should have gone in right away to keep some from fleeing.

Which is it?
Either go in and wipe them out or pull completely out of Iraq. Without us there, what targets are there?
 

Tylanner

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2004
5,481
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Originally posted by: conjur
And? Read that thread I linked to. It gave insurgents time to flee the city and for those remaining to fortify their positions. Never give the enemy a chance to flee. Oh wait...Bush already did that in Afghanistan. More of "staying the course", I suppose.

Tell that to Allawi and his peaceful negotiations, didn't work with Saddam, why would it work with terrorists?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Either go in and wipe them out or pull completely out of Iraq.

That we can agree on.

Without us there, what targets are there?

Apparently people celebrating a new school, new sewer line opening up, people exchanging goods in a market.

Most attacks now are on the civilians themselves or on Iraqi police. The reason? The US soldiers fight back 10x harder than women and children and Iraqi police.

Cowards to the end.

Hopefully we end 5,000 of them soon.

 

dinkhunter

Banned
Nov 9, 2004
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they cant avoid the task, they have to clear the place out and not stop until they do. thecivvies could have left, and many of them have been harbouring and supporting the terrorists. its a popular uprising. i have no sympathy for the adults who lose people.
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
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I'm not surprised. The baby killers have struck again. Lets go into the middle east and kill dark skinned people in the name of Jesus.
 
May 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
All civilians have had a chance to leave the city.

I pray that we stay the course in Iraq and that the lives that have been lost continue to be but a drop in the bucket in comparison to those that would have been lost had the bathist regime been left in power.

Drop in the bucket? You better pray to turn back time then.

Not all civilians have left the city. Why should they have to leave their homes?
We gave them time to get out of the war zone, they don't have to leave the path of war, but they are knowingly taking a risk by staying.
gave insurgents time to flee the city and for those remaining to fortify their positions.
So, by your logic, we shouldn?t have allowed civilians to get out of the war zone, so that those who had no choice about it would have been killed to.

:roll:
"war is evil" and "we need to kill more civilians in hopes of killing more terrorists", i think that Sometimes a moderate, not mindlessly violent strategy is called for in war.

Thanks for the 'point of view' guys.
 

Tylanner

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2004
5,481
2
81
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Lets go into the middle east and kill dark skinned people in the name of Jesus.

Hey your free to do whatever you want, but dont expect the Bush administration to support your radical motives.


 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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I'm not surprised. The baby killers have struck again. Lets go into the middle east and kill dark skinned people in the name of Jesus.

What an ignorant thing to say.

btw looking at Iraqis they seem very white to me. The people I see on TV are very light colored. And the few I know who work here are not dark skinned at all.

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Let's set one thing straight. There are people who live in Falluja who had nowhere to go and no means to get there if they did. Also, "military age" men, between 15 and 60 years old, were not allowed to leave Fallujah. The U.S. military wanted to be sure no "terrorists" escaped so they kept all males between those ages in Falluja.

This thread is about a savage U.S. led attack against a city with tens of thousands of civilians in it. I wonder how some of the members would feel if the tables were turned and a foreign invader was bombing their cities to rubble.