Scientific computing/modeling workstation needed.

[college_student]

Hi all,

I told my roommate that I would help him build a new workstation once Haswell was out. Well, that time has arrived.

1. What YOUR PC will be used for. That means what types of tasks you'll be performing.
Scientific computing, modeling. Don't need ECC RAM or anything like that. The key is multi-threaded-ness. We launch a lot of jobs in parallel (batch jobs) and like to have the results in a decent amount of time. Each job takes maybe 20 mins - hour (for the current project). Decent amount of RAM is also key (each job can take up 2-4 GB of RAM), maybe 32 GB would be nice. Haven't really done too much stuff with GPU-computing. If budget allows please suggest a GPU, else the HD 4600 is likely fine.

2. What YOUR budget is. A price range is acceptable as long as it's not more than a 20% spread
$1500 MAX including monitor (I need one).

3. What country YOU will be buying YOUR parts from.
USA -- Microcenter, Newegg, Amazon

5. IF YOU have a brand preference. That means, are you an Intel-Fanboy, AMD-Fanboy, ATI-Fanboy, nVidia-Fanboy, Seagate-Fanboy, WD-Fanboy, etc.
Intel

6. If YOU intend on using any of YOUR current parts, and if so, what those parts are.
I have an OS, Keyboard, Mouse, and Speakers.

7. IF YOU plan on overclocking or run the system at default speeds.
Probably.

8. What resolution, not monitor size, will you be using?
We want a 27'' at either 256x1400 or better.

9. WHEN do you plan to build it?
ASAP

X. Do you need to purchase any software to go with the system, such as Windows or Blu Ray playback software?
No

I was thinking something along the lines of the U2713HM, 4770K, 32 GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, 250GB SSD. I don't know anything about case, heatsink, mobo, etc. Don't need anything flashy, but something that stays cool would be ideal. If you can provide specific links to Microcenter, etc. that would be helpful.

Thanks much,
-DV

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Couple questions:

Do you have any weird requirements, like Dual LAN or extra PCI-E slots for using a Tesla card for dedicated GPGPU development?

Are you really, really sure you don't need MOAR COARS? (Like, a dual-socket 16+ core Opteron rig?)

Also, If you don't absolutely need to overclock, the virtualization features and TSX-NI capabilities of the 4770 (disabled in the -K CPUs) might be more useful than the extra GHz.

Anyways.

Microcenter will probably have CPU/Mobo combo pricing. Gigabyte and ASUS are kinda the top brands. Z87 if you want to overclock, although there aren't many other options. If you don't want to overclock TOO much, and aren't gaming / don't need SLI, then pretty much any basic board (typically $100-$150 or so) will be fine.

The CPU will come with an adequate HSF. If you're overclocking, then you'll want something like this at the very least.

Cases is largely irrelevant. If you want good overclocks, you'll want an ATX case with lots of cooling, of course. But if you're looking for something more modest, you could even downsize to mATX or ITX. You'll generally need a motherboard with four memory slots to hit that 32GB maximum. (Which generally means ATX, although there are exceptions.)

There are positively oodles of ATX mid-towers. I'm not even going to link one.

 

[college_student]

Couple questions:

Do you have any weird requirements, like Dual LAN or extra PCI-E slots for using a Tesla card for dedicated GPGPU development?

Are you really, really sure you don't need MOAR COARS? (Like, a dual-socket 16+ core Opteron rig?)

Also, If you don't absolutely need to overclock, the virtualization features and TSX-NI capabilities of the 4770 (disabled in the -K CPUs) might be more useful than the extra GHz.

Anyways.

Microcenter will probably have CPU/Mobo combo pricing. Gigabyte and ASUS are kinda the top brands. Z87 if you want to overclock, although there aren't many other options. If you don't want to overclock TOO much, and aren't gaming / don't need SLI, then pretty much any basic board (typically $100-$150 or so) will be fine.

The CPU will come with an adequate HSF. If you're overclocking, then you'll want something like this at the very least.

No weird requirements, i.e. don't need dual lan, or a Tesla card. If anything, if needed, and the budget allows, will get a regular GPU.

Don't really care about vPro or VT-d, so I think the 4770K is good. See, this is my real question. More cores are helpful, yes, but at the end of the day, I also want good single threaded performance. I think single threaded performance is more important bc I typically launch a bunch of single threaded tasks and the code takes care of managing the tasks, i.e. it launches jobs in a batch as single tasks finish.

I agree that cooling is important, even if I don't overclock. We want to overclock a modest bit on the 4770K (beyond the fact that it Turbo's to 3.9 GHz). Is the 212 adequate for that?

I know there are a lot of parts (e.g. cases) available, but I would appreciate links to ones you think are good (in terms of utility, overclock-ability, etc).

Thanks!

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Welp, you know your workload.

The 212 is adequate for non-super-agressive overclocking, yes.

I don't have much to say about cases, really. This one got a good review on Anandtech though.

 

[mfenn]

I don't think I would try to publish any paper based on results I received from an overclocked CPU. That goes double if your code is numerically intense because FP units behave in strange ways when pushed. (Seen it happen with MD simulations).

Does your code benefit from Hyperthreading? In other words, it is bound by memory access or ALU performance?

 

[college_student]

I don't think I would try to publish any paper based on results I received from an overclocked CPU. That goes double if your code is numerically intense because FP units behave in strange ways when pushed. (Seen it happen with MD simulations).

Does your code benefit from Hyperthreading? In other words, it is bound by memory access or ALU performance?

That's interesting. I don't think I have encountered any such behavior so far. Also we typically run the algorithms multiple (read: at least three) times before any results are put in a paper. We also try to make out code available on a website along with the paper so others can try it out.

Regardless, the 4770K seems to turbo to 3.9GHz, perhaps that's good enough; not sure if OC'ing by 500MHz will make any appreciable difference. In that case, would you recommend a plain old 4770 instead? (Price difference is negligible between the two at MC, and I think the K version might be a better bang for the buck, even if we don't OC, yes?)

Also mfenn, would you say apart from the CPU/Mobo/No-GPU, your mid-level build is what I should get?

Thanks!

 

[college_student]

Does your code benefit from Hyperthreading? In other words, it is bound by memory access or ALU performance?

Sorry, I forgot to address this. It benefits from hyper threading to the end that having more threads allows us to launch that many more instances of a batch job. For example, if I have N threads total (N = 8 for the 4770K), and I have M jobs (M >> N), then I will launch maybe N/2 or N - 2 (or 3) jobs at a time. Make sense?

For other projects where we have single jobs, the software/code we write does take advantage of multiple cores and threads.

 

[DominionSeraph]

Two of the FX-8350 + 970A-G46 bundles from Microcenter (one per person):
http://www.microcenter.com/site/products/amd_bundles.aspx

Along with two of:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/1f1Lc
(pcpartspicker just seemed to forget there's a promo for that RAM. It had it up two minutes ago, now it's gone, while it's still up at Newegg.)

$1150 for sixteen 4GHz integer cores and a reason to learn about clustering.

 

[Essence_of_War]

I'm leery of overclocking a workstation type computer.

Have you considered going with a Xeon instead of an i7? They also HT, but they're intended for servers and workstations, and can't really overclock. They also give you the option of going with ECC RAM if you need it.

That being said, I don't see the Haswell Xeon's on MC's website, only the IVY-B, and I'm having trouble finding an LGA 1150 MoBo that supports ECC RAM.

Here's what I might build:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Core i7-4770K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($279.99 @ Microcenter)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($29.99 @ Microcenter)
Motherboard: Asus Z87-K ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($122.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($108.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung 840 Series 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($99.99 @ Microcenter)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($59.99 @ NCIX US)
Video Card: Sapphire Radeon HD 7750 1GB Video Card ($87.98 @ Newegg)
Case: Corsair 500R Black ATX Mid Tower Case ($69.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: XFX 750W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply ($54.99 @ Newegg)
Optical Drive: Samsung SH-224BB DVD/CD Writer ($15.99 @ Microcenter)
Monitor: Asus PB278Q 27.0" Monitor ($554.10 @ Amazon)
Total: $1484.99
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-07-10 09:20 EDT-0400)

Notes:
Great deal on the Asus monitor. If you need it, I'd move fast.

Great deal on the 500R case also, today is the last day for that sale. If you can't grab it, the Fractal Design R4 for $80 shipped w/code, also a great case, also a great deal for a few dollars more.

The PSU is overkill but it's such a good deal I had to mention it, for this build w/ only a light GPU, Corsair CX430 Bronze @ $20 shipped is what you actually need. Keep the XFX in mind if you want to game also

As far as GPUs go, you could probably get away with a 6670 for $44 shipped if you wanted, if you're just worrying about driving a display. Heck, you could probably get away with the igpu if you wanted.

If you step down the GPU to either igpu or a 6670, and PSU to the Corsair, you can move up to the Samsung 250 GB SSD

 

[T_Yamamoto]

I think a 430 watt PSU will be more than sufficient for that build.

 

[piasabird]

Something like this might be nice? 6 cores, 12 Threads. Dual processor would be even better.

http://www.amazon.com/Intel-Xeon-262...owViewpoints=1

 

[college_student]

Two of the FX-8350 + 970A-G46 bundles from Microcenter (one per person):
http://www.microcenter.com/site/products/amd_bundles.aspx

Along with two of:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/1f1Lc
(pcpartspicker just seemed to forget there's a promo for that RAM. It had it up two minutes ago, now it's gone, while it's still up at Newegg.)

$1150 for sixteen 4GHz integer cores and a reason to learn about clustering.

Thanks a lot for your response. While I see why you suggested this, we don't really want a cluster. It's much easier for us to transport a single tower, and worry about heat/noise etc. If this was at work or a university, I agree that a cluster is a no-brainier.

I'm leery of overclocking a workstation type computer.

Have you considered going with a Xeon instead of an i7? They also HT, but they're intended for servers and workstations, and can't really overclock. They also give you the option of going with ECC RAM if you need it.

That being said, I don't see the Haswell Xeon's on MC's website, only the IVY-B, and I'm having trouble finding an LGA 1150 MoBo that supports ECC RAM.

Here's what I might build:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Core i7-4770K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($279.99 @ Microcenter)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($29.99 @ Microcenter)
Motherboard: Asus Z87-K ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($122.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($108.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung 840 Series 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($99.99 @ Microcenter)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($59.99 @ NCIX US)
Video Card: Sapphire Radeon HD 7750 1GB Video Card ($87.98 @ Newegg)
Case: Corsair 500R Black ATX Mid Tower Case ($69.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: XFX 750W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply ($54.99 @ Newegg)
Optical Drive: Samsung SH-224BB DVD/CD Writer ($15.99 @ Microcenter)
Monitor: Asus PB278Q 27.0" Monitor ($554.10 @ Amazon)
Total: $1484.99
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-07-10 09:20 EDT-0400)

Notes:
Great deal on the Asus monitor. If you need it, I'd move fast.

Great deal on the 500R case also, today is the last day for that sale. If you can't grab it, the Fractal Design R4 for $80 shipped w/code, also a great case, also a great deal for a few dollars more.

The PSU is overkill but it's such a good deal I had to mention it, for this build w/ only a light GPU, Corsair CX430 Bronze @ $20 shipped is what you actually need. Keep the XFX in mind if you want to game also

As far as GPUs go, you could probably get away with a 6670 for $44 shipped if you wanted, if you're just worrying about driving a display. Heck, you could probably get away with the igpu if you wanted.

If you step down the GPU to either igpu or a 6670, and PSU to the Corsair, you can move up to the Samsung 250 GB SSD

Thanks looks very good. Do I really need a GPU? Isn't the HD 4600 really good for non-gaming?

Also, yes, I have considered the Xeon processors. Would you recommend getting those instead? I know they sell server grade boards that allow for dual processors. However, that often requires ECC RAM, and the price is much more than "regular" parts, and there is very little gain in performance.

I'm going to pick up the Corsair 430, the 500R ASAP!

 

[Essence_of_War]

I included a GPU mostly to show that the option fits into your present budget, and it gives you additional digital video outs (DP and DVI-I) in case you want to add additional high-res monitors.

But HD 4600 can drive a single 27'' display just fine, so you could totally run with that alone if you'd like.

 

[mfenn]

That's interesting. I don't think I have encountered any such behavior so far. Also we typically run the algorithms multiple (read: at least three) times before any results are put in a paper. We also try to make out code available on a website along with the paper so others can try it out.

If your code is numerically unstable (note: not the same as computer instability/crashing) enough that you need to run multiple trials, then it is too unstable to deal with variations due to overclocking.

Regardless, the 4770K seems to turbo to 3.9GHz, perhaps that's good enough; not sure if OC'ing by 500MHz will make any appreciable difference. In that case, would you recommend a plain old 4770 instead? (Price difference is negligible between the two at MC, and I think the K version might be a better bang for the buck, even if we don't OC, yes?)

Overclocking by 500 MHz should make the code run around 13% faster, but like I said above, it's not worth it. In terms of what CPU to buy, the 4770K is a better deal at MC because it can be comboed with a motherboard whereas the normal 4770 cannot.

Also mfenn, would you say apart from the CPU/Mobo/No-GPU, your mid-level build is what I should get?

Thanks!

You could also drastically lower the power supply because that mostly goes towards feeding the GPU. But yes, assuming your code benefits from HT, then you could get:

i7 4770K $280
ASRock Z77 Pro4 $75 (after combo with CPU)
CX430 $20 AR
+ the rest of my usual midrange build

Sorry, I forgot to address this. It benefits from hyper threading to the end that having more threads allows us to launch that many more instances of a batch job. For example, if I have N threads total (N = 8 for the 4770K), and I have M jobs (M >> N), then I will launch maybe N/2 or N - 2 (or 3) jobs at a time. Make sense?

Launching more simultaneous tasks is all well and good, but the real question is what speedup do you get from launching them. For some codes, using HT to launch twice as many tasks results in each task running less than half as fast, thus reducing overall throughput. Others will run more than half as fast, thus increasing throughput. The question is, which category does yours fall into?

 

[solergdyr]

I included a GPU mostly to show that the option fits into your present budget, and it gives you additional digital video outs (DP and DVI-I) in case you want to add additional high-res monitors.

But HD 4600 can drive a single 27'' display just fine, so you could totally run with that alone if you'd like.

Independent better

 

[college_student]

I included a GPU mostly to show that the option fits into your present budget, and it gives you additional digital video outs (DP and DVI-I) in case you want to add additional high-res monitors.

But HD 4600 can drive a single 27'' display just fine, so you could totally run with that alone if you'd like.

Independent better

I think we'll stick to the iGPU then. If I can drive a 27'' display (non-gaming, but Netflix, etc) then I'll be satisfied.

If your code is numerically unstable (note: not the same as computer instability/crashing) enough that you need to run multiple trials, then it is too unstable to deal with variations due to overclocking.



Overclocking by 500 MHz should make the code run around 13% faster, but like I said above, it's not worth it. In terms of what CPU to buy, the 4770K is a better deal at MC because it can be comboed with a motherboard whereas the normal 4770 cannot.



You could also drastically lower the power supply because that mostly goes towards feeding the GPU. But yes, assuming your code benefits from HT, then you could get:

i7 4770K $280
ASRock Z77 Pro4 $75 (after combo with CPU)
CX430 $20 AR
+ the rest of my usual midrange build



Launching more simultaneous tasks is all well and good, but the real question is what speedup do you get from launching them. For some codes, using HT to launch twice as many tasks results in each task running less than half as fast, thus reducing overall throughput. Others will run more than half as fast, thus increasing throughput. The question is, which category does yours fall into?

Understood, but the algorithms aren't unstable, they just have a stochastic nature to them (when initialized) by design. As such, we expect the results to be slightly different from one run to the next, albeit not by much. None-the-less, I hear you loud and clear, and we won't be OC'ing the system.

How do I take advantage of the MC Combo deal?

Thanks all!

 

[Essence_of_War]

Uhhhh...I think you just show up, and grab both the CPU and the MoBo?

http://www.microcenter.com/site/brands/intel-processor-bundles.aspx

Also, if you don't want a discrete gpu, totally agree with mfenn on the $20 CX430.

 

[mfenn]

Uhhhh...I think you just show up, and grab both the CPU and the MoBo?

Correct! :awe: The discount should be automatically applied during checkout. You can always ask the cashier to be sure.

Understood, but the algorithms aren't unstable, they just have a stochastic nature to them (when initialized) by design. As such, we expect the results to be slightly different from one run to the next, albeit not by much. None-the-less, I hear you loud and clear, and we won't be OC'ing the system.

Mathematically speaking sure, but in actual implementation you're going to be seeding a PRNG from a source with good entropy. I highly highly recommend storing your seeds so that you can reproduce the exact same run on demand. Otherwise, it will be nearly impossible to validate your algorithm.

 

[college_student]

Correct! :awe: The discount should be automatically applied during checkout. You can always ask the cashier to be sure.



Mathematically speaking sure, but in actual implementation you're going to be seeding a PRNG from a source with good entropy. I highly highly recommend storing your seeds so that you can reproduce the exact same run on demand. Otherwise, it will be nearly impossible to validate your algorithm.

Yes, we do that, and often provide that information with the code, so that others can reproduce the results from the paper! Thanks though; far too many people in the field don't do this (or provide their code) making it really frustrating and hard to trust their work! >.<

I'll stop by MC next weekend and get the CPU/Mobo! Thanks all for your help!

 

[mfenn]

No problem, let us know how the build goes!