SCIENCE! Thought of the day

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
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It is widely theorized that life on Earth started via a process termed abiogenesis, that is, it arose spontaneously from the chemicals and and energies present where it arose and no required outside influence or intervention from any supernatural beings.

If this is the case, shouldn't abiogenesis be occurring all the time? Shouldn't we be finding new life forms? Could we even tell if we did?
 

ElFenix

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Mar 20, 2000
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If this is the case, shouldn't abiogenesis be occurring all the time?
life as we know it sucks down the chemicals that would be necessary for abiogenesis, so, probably not

Shouldn't we be finding new life forms? Could we even tell if we did?
probably no to the second question, we're most likely looking for things that are similar to what we've currently got.
 

dighn

Lifer
Aug 12, 2001
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it has happened. it is well known that air conditioners can spontaneously create mice.
 

sixone

Lifer
May 3, 2004
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It is widely theorized that life on Earth started via a process termed abiogenesis, that is, it arose spontaneously from the chemicals and and energies present where it arose and no required outside influence or intervention from any supernatural beings.

If this is the case, shouldn't abiogenesis be occurring all the time? Shouldn't we be finding new life forms? Could we even tell if we did?

Good questions. How would we recognize a non-carbon based life form, if it was right in front of us?
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
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Assuming the conditions are the same, then maybe, and only if we're looking for "it" and we know what that it is. But since the conditions are very different (atmospheric, weather) and we don't know what we're looking for exactly (proteins enveloped in a membrane?) then it isn't surprising.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
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This is dumb.

If we evolved from monkeys, why didn't the monkeys evolve too?

They did.

For the OP, conditions on Earth now are far different than when life first arose. Any newly arising life form would have to do so in the presence of current day organisms. Meaning they'll likely get eaten and digested long before they reach anything we'd call alive.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
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www.anyf.ca
179174_10151330766706040_411623541_n.jpg


:biggrin:
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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It is widely theorized that life on Earth started via a process termed abiogenesis, that is, it arose spontaneously from the chemicals and and energies present where it arose and no required outside influence or intervention from any supernatural beings.

If this is the case, shouldn't abiogenesis be occurring all the time? Shouldn't we be finding new life forms? Could we even tell if we did?


It likely occurred multiple times, but it requires a few variables that aren't really possible anymore.


One - there's the density of biochemicals in a given area
Two - there's the energy requirement

The strongest theories behind this basically state: in some locations, there were a ton of precursors or other biologically-important chemicals floating around, and there was an unfathomable amount of energy/radiation hitting that "soup."

There's also a related concept that all this soup, radiated or not, still depending on it getting frothed up.. like soap-bubbles. In this concept, there may have been many such bubbles formed that contained the necessary ingredients, but it may have taken awhile for a few lucky ones to gain "life" in that they could split at will and create new "bubbles" on their own.

A rudimentary cellular structure and a soap bubble are extremely similar, in case you weren't aware.


As for energy/radiation, the first single-celled organisms came about roughly one or two billion years ago. Earth then, and Earth today, are very different. No multi-celled animals of today could survive in that environment. The solar radiation that bombarded the Earth in those days was fairly intense, and the environment itself was most likely very toxic. It was a combination of those variables that would allow abiogenesis to occur; the energy hitting certain biologically-important chemicals or precursors would produce changes.

If it happened at all (likely did), it just wouldn't be possible today, at least not likely. It may be happening, who knows. It doesn't just spontaneously produce some creature we can readily see - such a production of "life" could be happening fairly frequently, but they may be dying soon after "creation" or they may share the same characteristics.
It's not like we have documented every single creature on this planet - it could be possible we have missed a few single-celled organisms that have settled somewhere out of reach.
But they have attempted to produce man-made abiogenesis in the lab, in experiments designed to reproduce a possible early-Earth environment. I don't think they have succeeded, but they may have seen the "creation" of biologically-important chemicals out of a soup of lesser precursors. In any case, the early environment isn't something scientists have a perfectly clear picture of, nor is it easy to reproduce every possible variable that may have been important in the creation of the first viable organisms.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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This is dumb.

If we evolved from monkeys, why didn't the monkeys evolve too?

It's not likely every "monkey" just sat down in one large group, and decided "it's time to evolve!" and then they all proceeded to transform, all at once.

Only a handful may have decided it would be a good idea. The rest saw what happened and ran away, flinging shit back at us, screaming eeEE-aaHH-ooOOO-eeEEEEEE "what the fuck are they?!"

A different tribe similarly decided to evolve a few of their own some years before the above-mentioned group, and they became the Neanderthals. Their group chased the Neanderthals (the ugly sinful beings that weren't like the rest of the tribe) out of Africa and into Europe.

[true story]
 

Jaepheth

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2006
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If new life evolved today it would be a single cell life form and would find itself competing for resources with other 1 cell life forms that have millions of years of a head start.

It'd be like putting an infant in the middle of a bunch of wild animals.

You'd only ever notice it if the other life forms don't eat it outright and they also don't eat all its food so that it starves and the environment doesn't kill it AND you happen to come across it (note that there are plenty of small species that have been here much longer that we're still discovering).
 

dighn

Lifer
Aug 12, 2001
22,820
4
81
If new life evolved today it would be a single cell life form and would find itself competing for resources with other 1 cell life forms that have millions of years of a head start.

It'd be like putting an infant in the middle of a bunch of wild animals.

You'd only ever notice it if the other life forms don't eat it outright and they also don't eat all its food so that it starves and the environment doesn't kill it AND you happen to come across it (note that there are plenty of small species that have been here much longer that we're still discovering).

definitely not on earth. earth is filled with life in every environmental niche, that any new "life" probably wouldn't even get to the cellular stage before being eaten or just carelessly trampled upon by one of the billions upon billions of vastly more sophisticated organisms.

it has to be a pristine environment, like another planet or in the lab. problem with the lab is that unless we know exactly how abiogenesis occurs, it would be a galactic longshot to reproduce it in that kind of limited space and time.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
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It's not likely every "monkey" just sat down in one large group, and decided "it's time to evolve!" and then they all proceeded to transform, all at once.

Only a handful may have decided it would be a good idea. The rest saw what happened and ran away, flinging shit back at us, screaming eeEE-aaHH-ooOOO-eeEEEEEE "what the fuck are they?!"

A different tribe similarly decided to evolve a few of their own some years before the above-mentioned group, and they became the Neanderthals. Their group chased the Neanderthals (the ugly sinful beings that weren't like the rest of the tribe) out of Africa and into Europe.

[true story]

Since we typically kill the things we fear...wouldn't the monkeys just have killed them?
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
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definitely not on earth. earth is filled with life in every environmental niche, that any new "life" probably wouldn't even get to the cellular stage before being eaten or just carelessly trampled upon by one of the billions upon billions of vastly more sophisticated organisms.

it has to be a pristine environment, like another planet or in the lab. problem with the lab is that unless we know exactly how abiogenesis occurs, it would be a galactic longshot to reproduce it in that kind of limited space and time.

The biggest part of the problem is that new "life" wouldn't go from nothing to something. The concept of "life" is a human defined term anyway. Human run experiments have seen amino acids get created, and that would be the first step in creating life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller–Urey_experiment
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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Aug 22, 2001
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It is widely theorized that life on Earth started via a process termed abiogenesis, that is, it arose spontaneously from the chemicals and and energies present where it arose and no required outside influence or intervention from any supernatural beings.

If this is the case, shouldn't abiogenesis be occurring all the time? Shouldn't we be finding new life forms? Could we even tell if we did?
Well, they did it in the lab
 

dighn

Lifer
Aug 12, 2001
22,820
4
81
The biggest part of the problem is that new "life" wouldn't go from nothing to something. The concept of "life" is a human defined term anyway. Human run experiments have seen amino acids get created, and that would be the first step in creating life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller–Urey_experiment

true. we are able to synthesis precursors to life under conditions mimicking the early earth, but the key is getting "something" that can 1. self replicate and 2. have the potential to evolve. there have been discoveries of ribozymes that can catalyze a portion of the polymerization process needed for self replication, but nothing 100% yet.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
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true. we are able to synthesis precursors to life under conditions mimicking the early earth, but the key is getting "something" that can 1. self replicate and 2. have the potential to evolve. there have been discoveries of ribozymes that can polymerize a portion of its own replication, but nothing that's 100% yet.

It will take a lot of funding to simulate an Earth's worth of chemicals and a billion years of time.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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true. we are able to synthesis precursors to life under conditions mimicking the early earth, but the key is getting "something" that can 1. self replicate and 2. have the potential to evolve. there have been discoveries of ribozymes that can catalyze a portion of the polymerization process needed for self replication, but nothing 100% yet.

Give it time.

A lot of time.


And a lot of money.


We might get there, but no one should be expecting a newspaper article to read "Scientists have created self-replicating organism in the lab, and it evolved!" anytime in the near future.

The processes that allowed such to happen in reality may have taken thousands, millions, hundreds of millions, or even a billion years.
We can't really say it took 2-3 billion years, because who knows how long it took from the first availability of all required variables, to the first organism... but it is quite likely the environment couldn't readily host most organic matter for the first two billion years.

Regardless, it would take an unimaginable amount of time and effort to reproduce the whole story, or an equally unimaginable string of luck.

We'll probably be able to construct an organism from scratch sooner than we stumble upon an abiogenesis-created organism.