Schumer, former staffer targeted in fake news harassment allegations

[MomentsofSanity]

This is why you don't use Twitter to achieve justice. I hope that Senate seat was worth it because now all it takes is a few credible allegations to take someone out politically.

Ummmm. Credible allegations of molestation/harassment SHOULD take out someone.

 

[senseamp]

What's the deal with conservatism that it has to resort to these kind of dirty tricks? Trickle down isn't selling like it used to?

 

[Starbuck1975]

Ummmm. Credible allegations of molestation/harassment SHOULD take out someone.

Absolutely, in a court of law or under due process

 

[zinfamous]

When 8 credible women (most of them apparently Democrats for whatever that might mean) come forward separately with groping stories just how does this make *him* an "unfortunate casualty"? He seems like a creep to me based on what I've heard/read so good riddance. He can go back to private life, 'rehab' himself (hopefully for real) and pursue good deeds in private life (or even run for office again).

I haven't gone through all of the allegations on Franken, so I could be missing some things, But I do find the speed with which he walked out in response to the type of allegations rather alarming.

And that is not to discredit the accusers in any way, or the behavior that they experienced or what they felt. First: I think it seems very credible that Franken is a bit of a pervy creep. Second, I have no desire to dismiss "butt grabbing" as a lesser offense than say, pedophilia (Moore) or rape (Weinstein, Trump, et al) in comparison, because I think that punitively, we need to accept that none of this behavior is a appropriate and that categorizing "lesser creeps" and their behavior as more excusable than the "True Monsters" and their behavior does a tremendous disservice not just to the victims and women as a whole, but to society in general.

That being said, I call Franken and to a greater extent Garrison Keillor "casualties" of the purge because of the swift punitive action and public destruction of these individuals. Particularly in light of what has happened here with Schumer and his staff, it does seem credible that destroying someone for whatever reason, simply through a massive and instantaneous barrage of social media accounts that seem to have a shorter shelf life than is necessary for legitimate vetting of their authenticity. I think such casualties will happen as part of the process, but I'm with Starbuck on this. I'm not trying to defend creeps. I'm not saying they should be tolerated. I am simply accepting that not all of this process is going to be clean and that even if some of these people aren't innocent, they are being swiftly abandoned by their people without any due process (I don't mean legally, because I do think it is important for awful people in positions of leadership to be removed if necessary (when the internal processes and structures allow it), when it's clear that the legal process is too slow and too ineffective.

I'm not questioning the timing of Franken's accusations against him. I do question the fact that while his original accuser accepted his apologies rather swiftly, she had also been working closely with Roger Stone. All of that...settled for a while. Then in response to some waffling from dems for a week, they just pile on. It's strange to me because Franken has been a specific target of the GOP since he was sworn in and especially this year, when he unintentionally inspired Jeff Sessions to boldly perjure himself in front of the Senate, I got the feeling that nothing would stop them from getting him removed. There has been a lot of "How dare this clever little man make one of our's look like such a fool!" from the braying herds of the GOP and their base. I find it...exceedingly strange.

But back to my larger point: It's probably a good that he's going. It is, overall, right that we don't accept "lesser" forms of harassment in light of the worst of the worst (which is amazing that Trump is still popular among the GOP, the rapist that he is, when you consider the evidence against him is no less valid than that against someone like Franken) because cultural and social change doesn't happen when we casually tolerate the lesser roots of the same evil. But like Starbuck has said, with Franken being dismissed so quickly and so casually, we've signaled that it is quite easy to hijack this movement for ill intent and political gain. When you have a desperate party that knows it has long lost the will of the people and the majority of public acceptance, no tactic is too shady.

 

[Thump553]

Maybe. I don't find the accusations against Moore to be particularly compelling, but his own words - "I never dated a girl without her mother's permission" - pretty much damned him. Even if he never molested any of them, that's still pretty creepy, as a thirty year old man has zero business dating "girls" who need their mothers' permission. You certainly have a point, and I too very much dislike the concept of accusations about events decades ago, which are neither provable nor disprovable, being considered as evidence of guilt, but I think the people being taken out politically mostly need to be taken out politically. Will there be unfortunate innocent victims? Sure. The world is never fair - Jim Sasser, one of Tennessee's best Senators ever, got taken out politically merely for being a Democrat during a Republican tidal wave. But at least we're weeding out a lot of men who should have been cast out (of politics, entertainment, media) long ago. That's not trivial.

Have you watched the initial press conference of Beverly Nelson (the 14 year old Moore made his moves on)? Personally I found her extremely persuasive. Here's a youtube link (with hilarious comments), there are several versions of it up on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0CNStE9hG0

OTOH the GOP national party has been the master of dirty tricks since at least Nixon's days. I'm positive that this Schumer one isn't the first and won't be the last. Some of the complaints against Franken could have easily originated this way (including the original by a frequent Fox News contributor-why did she keep the only copy of that embarrassing photo for so many years except to use in this way or for blackmail?

Coming from the left but a firm believer in due process and the rule of law I think we have gone through a mini Salem witch trial episode the last few months. We had a similar breakdown in the 80's when all of a sudden multiple daycare places were accused of molestation, satanic rituals, etc. Some people had their lives and businesses devastated by that madness then.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Have you watched the initial press conference of Beverly Nelson (the 14 year old Moore made his moves on)? Personally I found her extremely persuasive. Here's a youtube link (with hilarious comments), there are several versions of it up on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0CNStE9hG0

OTOH the GOP national party has been the master of dirty tricks since at least Nixon's days. I'm positive that this Schumer one isn't the first and won't be the last. Some of the complaints against Franken could have easily originated this way (including the original by a frequent Fox News contributor-why did she keep the only copy of that embarrassing photo for so many years except to use in this way or for blackmail?

Coming from the left but a firm believer in due process and the rule of law I think we have gone through a mini Salem witch trial episode the last few months. We had a similar breakdown in the 80's when all of a sudden multiple daycare places were accused of molestation, satanic rituals, etc. Some people had their lives and businesses devastated by that madness then.

He's shown a pattern of not even being remotely willing to accept anything that destroys his political delusions, so its not surprising that he wouldn't find much there he's willing to believe.

Yes it is a certainty that we'll see more of this. I'm sure it'll fall apart under investigation like it pretty much always does (but it will contribute to their hysteria all the same, just like Pizzagate, and sadly probably even worse, where it'll end up going to full trials just like Project Veritas has gotten other things - only to have it be shown to be exactly what it is). Sorry, I disagree. Franken's accusers were quite credible. I'm also baffled about you citing evidence like that as though its not entirely credible just because she might also have political standing. Why aren't you asking the exact same thing about Moore's accusers? Or anyone else? That's a double standard that you need to stop. There's tons of reasons why they remain quiet until certain times. The key thing with Franken is to keep in mind that what he did, while absolutely shitty, pales against so much of these others. Its worthy of him being dismissed. Sure its shitty that conservatives are being so duplicitous and hypocritical, but they'll have to deal with the ramifications of being that way. And they often get their reckoning.

Please don't make such a horrible comparison, since that's pretty much the total opposite of what is happening now. The Satanic Panic was caused by exactly the type of people being implicated in all the rampant sexual harassment/assault allegations (and they were also the people perpetrating the shit against kids, in spite of them pretending to be the protectors/champions against it). In fact, that situation (and especially the religious zealotry and politics that was behind it) is part of why its been so difficult for women to have their claims taken seriously (same with when it happened to kids).

The key difference is the Satanic Panic was stirred up by shit for brains based on their beliefs and nonsense that others were spewing that was not based on anything resembling truths. The women bringing allegations now, generally are having to present more evidence (and notice how many times the reaction from the accused is "yes, we had sex, but it was super consensual" or "that's not how I recall it happening" - which no shit, talk about obtuse statement - and various other ways they admit there's definitely some truth, whereas the Satanic Panic stuff was almost entirely bullshit that fell to pieces under basic investigation). Not to mention, they are almost always immediately attacked, and there's almost never actual benefits for them (settlements are actually fairly rare, and they are taken through the ringer). Hell for it even to be taken at all requires basically some evidence, and often strong evidence, and other victims coming forward. Otherwise people largely dismiss it.

Fuck, we've had people full on admit to stuff and some people still refuse to believe it. See Mike Tyson where I still see people completely adamant that he didn't, nevermind that Tyson has outright admitted that he's forced himself on multiple women (he just claims that one time he didn't actually). Or Turmp, admitting multiple instances (not just the one tape, he's related similar disgusting admissions other times, that have ended up being corroborated by victims - years back and not in any way seeking attention from his celebrity or Presidency).

 

[mect]

Absolutely, in a court of law or under due process

Wait, so you think that every person that violates company policy needs to be tried in a court of law before the company can act? I hope you realize how insane that would be.

 

[werepossum]

Have you watched the initial press conference of Beverly Nelson (the 14 year old Moore made his moves on)? Personally I found her extremely persuasive. Here's a youtube link (with hilarious comments), there are several versions of it up on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0CNStE9hG0

OTOH the GOP national party has been the master of dirty tricks since at least Nixon's days. I'm positive that this Schumer one isn't the first and won't be the last. Some of the complaints against Franken could have easily originated this way (including the original by a frequent Fox News contributor-why did she keep the only copy of that embarrassing photo for so many years except to use in this way or for blackmail?

Coming from the left but a firm believer in due process and the rule of law I think we have gone through a mini Salem witch trial episode the last few months. We had a similar breakdown in the 80's when all of a sudden multiple daycare places were accused of molestation, satanic rituals, etc. Some people had their lives and businesses devastated by that madness then.

Actually I have not. I'm just very, very suspicious of decades-old accusations that cannot be proven or disproven. Then we have another accuser who claims to have a mildly creepy Yearbook entry (which she refuses to turn over for forensic investigation) by Roy Moore, with a signature that he never used but which exactly matches his signature on her divorce papers because 'DA' was the initials of the clerk who witnessed Judge Moore's signature. Finally, we have Franken's first accuser who claimed that he grasped her breasts while she slept, although her photographic proof pretty well shows that he was not touching her, as admittedly creepy and inappropriate as was his behavior.

It's all well and good to say that you find this kind of testimony extremely persuasive, but please remember that these women are highly coached by experts to be believable. That's what Gloria Allred does, and she's very good at it.

EDIT: I actually have seen this press conference. This is the accuser with the yearbook, who alleges that he molested her when she was 16, not 14.

 

[fskimospy]

Actually I have not. I'm just very, very suspicious of decades-old accusations that cannot be proven or disproven. Then we have another accuser who claims to have a mildly creepy Yearbook entry (which she refuses to turn over for forensic investigation) by Roy Moore, with a signature that he never used but which exactly matches his signature on her divorce papers because 'DA' was the initials of the clerk who witnessed Judge Moore's signature.

It's all well and good to say that you find this kind of testimony extremely persuasive, but please remember that these women are highly coached by experts to be believable. That's what Gloria Allred does, and she's very good at it.

It's very interesting that you uncritically state the arguments of Roy Moore's lawyer while disparaging Gloria Allred. Gee, nobody could have seen that coming, haha.

Regardless, the idea that these accusations can't be proven or disproven to a reasonable degree of certainty requires willful denial of reality. You have nine separate women who do not know each other accusing him of very similar behavior. Their accounts have been backed up by dozens of other people who know them well, including people testifying to contemporaneous statements by the victims at the time of their abuse. In addition, people who have known Moore for a long time have all said his taste for young girls was well known and many of Moore's statements in his defense have been outed as transparent lies. It's the same thing with Trump's many accusers. It's entirely possible that one or more of them is lying but all of them lying? No chance in hell.

So basically it comes down to a question of whether you believe 2-3 dozen people's cross-indexed accounts of Moore's behavior against a known liar saying he's innocent and the victim of a wide ranging conspiracy of dozens of people. This is not a complicated thing to understand, by far the most likely answer is that he's guilty. All it takes is a rational and objective look at the available evidence.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Wait, so you think that every person that violates company policy needs to be tried in a court of law before the company can act? I hope you realize how insane that would be.

That's why my sentence contained an "OR"

 

[mect]

That's why my sentence contained an "OR"

Sorry, missed the "or". That's my bad.

I do wonder how you imagine due process would work for elections. To me, it would seem that reputable news agencies verifying stories is about as close as you can get.

The problem of course is the same as its always been. You will always have disreputable agencies publishing claims with no verification (or just making things up) and people will either believe or discredit based on their personal political opinions. To me it seems the real problem is people shouting "fake news" any time they don't agree with something in order to muddy the waters of what news agencies are reputable.