School violates students' First Amendment rights

Riprorin

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Apr 25, 2000
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More Students Denied Right to Wear Pro-Life T-Shirts Against Abortion

by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
April 29, 2005


Des Moines, IA (LifeNews.com) -- More students are coming forward saying they were denied the right to free expression when their schools prohibited them from wearing pro-life t-shirts with the message "Abortion Kills Kids." The shirts were part of a national pro-life shirt day sponsored by youth pro-life organization Rock for Life.
In Des Moines, Iowa, two Roosevelt High School students say their First Amendment rights were violated when school officials told them to remove the shirts. Sisters Brittany and Tamera Chandler said they were threatened with suspension if they wore the shirts.

In an interview with the Des Moines Register, Roosevelt Principal Anita Micich denied that was the case. She claims she wanted the Chandlers to remove the shirts to protect them from students who disagreed with the pro-life message they conveyed.

"I was worried that students who were expressing themselves might become targets, or that it might become so disruptive we couldn't conduct classes," Micich said. "It was headed down that path."

Tamera Chandler agreed to wear a sweatshirt over her shirt, but felt her rights had been violated.

"I was upset because they violated my rights, but I didn't want any trouble because graduation's right around the corner," she told the Register.

But, when Brittany wouldn't change her shirt, school officials told her and her father that Tamera could be suspended, which would delay her graduation this spring.

Another student who wore the same shirt disputed the claim that other students were causing them problems.

"I just wore it like any other shirt, and no one said anything bad," she told the Des Moines newspaper.

The Chandlers' parents are considering filing a lawsuit against the school and have contacted the Iowa Liberty and Justice Center, a pro-life and religious liberties law firm.

"How the school district addresses the issue, whether cavalierly or genuinely, will affect the future handling of the case," staff attorney Chuck Hurley said of the situation.

Brittany Chandler told the Des Moines newspaper she wants an apology.

"There was never an argument in class," she said. "A lot of people said, 'We're glad you're standing up for your beliefs.' I want an apology and for my sister to graduate and to wear the shirt again, that's all."

The school has already started to relent and Micich said the girls can wear the shirts and students who dissent will be told to leave them alone.

Meanwhile, in Tennessee, a Knox County elementary school principal told a 5th grader that she was prohibited from wearing the t-shirt.

School principal Emily Lenn told Debbie Williams told her that her daughter's shirt was inappropriate because young kids attended the school and because it was too graphic. The shirt shows a picture of an unborn child.

Lenn said the graphic nature of the shirt and not its pro-life message was the problem. He said she could wear a shirt to school if it had a less intense message.

More Students Denied Right to Wear Pro-Life T-Shirts Against Abortion

Rather than stifling the free speech of students who oppose killing babies, how about dealing with kids that pose a physical threat to other students.

It look like bullies and not school administrators are calling the shots.

The inmates are running the asylum.
 

sbacpo

Banned
May 25, 2005
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A school administration is well within it's rights to make judgement calls of this sort. If they think the clothing may have been disruptive or might cause problems it is their job to remove that catalyst from the premises.

Just to be clear I only think abortion should be allowed within a very narrow set of circumstances (rape, incest, health of mother, etc).

Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip. If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.
 

dmcowen674

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Oct 13, 1999
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip.

If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Problem is the Title is not just misleading but been proven to be totally wrong when it comes to the rights of schools over the students.
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip.

If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Problem is the Title is not just misleading but been proven to be totally wrong when it comes to the rights of schools over the students.

Wow one of the first times I have ever agreed with you :p
 

sbacpo

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May 25, 2005
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip.

If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Problem is the Title is not just misleading but been proven to be totally wrong when it comes to the rights of schools over the students.

Quite honestly Dave you should be the very last person on this board complaining about misleading or wrong titles and posting things that are totally wrong. The very last.

 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
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76
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip.

If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Problem is the Title is not just misleading but been proven to be totally wrong when it comes to the rights of schools over the students.

Quite honestly Dave you should be the very last person on this board complaining about misleading or wrong titles and posting things that are totally wrong. The very last.

That doesn't change the fact that in this one case, Dave is completely correct.
 

Riprorin

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Apr 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: sbacpo
A school administration is well within it's rights to make judgement calls of this sort. If they think the clothing may have been disruptive or might cause problems it is their job to remove that catalyst from the premises.

Just to be clear I only think abortion should be allowed within a very narrow set of circumstances (rape, incest, health of mother, etc).

Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip. If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Thewhole issue would go away if the failed public school system would have school uniforms like parochial schools.
 

kogase

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2004
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Originally posted by: sbacpo

Quite honestly Dave you should be the very last person on this board complaining about misleading or wrong titles and posting things that are totally wrong. The very last.

Way to shoot the messenger, buddy.

And, as has been mentioned, the school is within its rights. I remember threads in here about schools forcing kids to take off anti-Bush shirts as well.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
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0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
(snip)
Meanwhile, in Tennessee, a Knox County elementary school principal told a 5th grader that she was prohibited from wearing the t-shirt.

School principal Emily Lenn told Debbie Williams told her that her daughter's shirt was inappropriate because young kids attended the school and because it was too graphic. The shirt shows a picture of an unborn child.

Lenn said the graphic nature of the shirt and not its pro-life message was the problem. He said she could wear a shirt to school if it had a less intense message.

More Students Denied Right to Wear Pro-Life T-Shirts Against Abortion
Mom: "Honey, what would you like to wear today to school?"
Kid: "Ma, I'm feeling political today. Give me my Pro-Life t-shirt."
 

Last Rezort

Banned
Apr 16, 2005
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Originally posted by: sbacpo
A school administration is well within it's rights to make judgement calls of this sort. If they think the clothing may have been disruptive or might cause problems it is their job to remove that catalyst from the premises.

Just to be clear I only think abortion should be allowed within a very narrow set of circumstances (rape, incest, health of mother, etc).

Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip. If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

You know who needs a time out. Rip, for posting bull.

Come on man, no one cares, and its leagle, so go hide in a corner. This is not in dispute, the law will not change, and this is not a rights violation. Just the same as schools dont like people wearing beer shirts, they also dont like people advocating taking away a womans rights.
Im sure that by your moral athority you can tell a woman that you know better then her about how she should live. All hail Rip, bringer of the light.
Wako......
Just like they board is not going to alow a kid to wear a god is dead t-shirt(which im wearing now), they will not let anti abortion wako's wear their shirts.
 

Last Rezort

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Apr 16, 2005
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip.

If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Problem is the Title is not just misleading but been proven to be totally wrong when it comes to the rights of schools over the students.

Protection from the Pro-death crowd?
Why do they need protection? Are the killers running around with guns shooting people? Are they aborting on campus? I can see it now, young girls running around with metal hangers pulling dead babies out of their vaginas. THESE PEOPLE NEED PROTECTION!
 

Last Rezort

Banned
Apr 16, 2005
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Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: sbacpo
A school administration is well within it's rights to make judgement calls of this sort. If they think the clothing may have been disruptive or might cause problems it is their job to remove that catalyst from the premises.

Just to be clear I only think abortion should be allowed within a very narrow set of circumstances (rape, incest, health of mother, etc).

Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip. If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Thewhole issue would go away if the failed public school system would have school uniforms like parochial schools.


Is image that important? Maybe to the weak of mind, or faithfull. What you wear does not make you who you are. Just like what you believe(God), may not be reality.
 

totalcommand

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: sbacpo
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip.

If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Problem is the Title is not just misleading but been proven to be totally wrong when it comes to the rights of schools over the students.

Quite honestly Dave you should be the very last person on this board complaining about misleading or wrong titles and posting things that are totally wrong. The very last.

Hmm didn't you just write this?

Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip. If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Let's replace Rip with Dave:

Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Dave. If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

As for my opinion: I think this has been answered many, many, many times. Schools are well within their authority to do this.

Conservatives try to use this authority that schools have to attack the public school system itself.

They have no actual problem with the free speech part.
 

Last Rezort

Banned
Apr 16, 2005
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The girl is most likely like 8 years old. Does she even know what she is talking about? There is no way she could understand all the issues.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
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126
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip.

If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Problem is the Title is not just misleading but been proven to be totally wrong when it comes to the rights of schools over the students.

Quite honestly Dave you should be the very last person on this board complaining about misleading or wrong titles and posting things that are totally wrong. The very last.

Says the person who just joined the forums within the month. OK :roll: Ban got lifted?
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: kogase
Originally posted by: sbacpo

Quite honestly Dave you should be the very last person on this board complaining about misleading or wrong titles and posting things that are totally wrong. The very last.

Way to shoot the messenger, buddy.

And, as has been mentioned, the school is within its rights. I remember threads in here about schools forcing kids to take off anti-Bush shirts as well.

That depends on where you look.

Anti-Bush T-shirt approved


But Rip is wrong. You don't get free speech in public schools.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: sbacpo
A school administration is well within it's rights to make judgement calls of this sort. If they think the clothing may have been disruptive or might cause problems it is their job to remove that catalyst from the premises.

Just to be clear I only think abortion should be allowed within a very narrow set of circumstances (rape, incest, health of mother, etc).

Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip. If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Thewhole issue would go away if the failed public school system would have school uniforms like parochial schools.

Like a good little parrot RIP keeps lying saying the public shools are failed:

FACT: New studies indicate that American students are among the best educated in the world. The U.S. has one of the highest graduation rates and U.S. schools steer more students to college than does any other country, even though many of those countries weed out mediocre students. Academic achievement among U.S. students - with the majority educated in public school - continues to rise. Moreover, according to a
Money magazine study, private schools rank no better scholastically than comparable public schools. Recent studies of the Milwaukee and Cleveland plans have indicated that participation in choice programsdoes not result in significant educational improvement among students. Polls show that the vast majority of parents support the public schools their children attend and believe those schools are doing a good job.
 

totalcommand

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: kogase
Originally posted by: sbacpo

Quite honestly Dave you should be the very last person on this board complaining about misleading or wrong titles and posting things that are totally wrong. The very last.

Way to shoot the messenger, buddy.

And, as has been mentioned, the school is within its rights. I remember threads in here about schools forcing kids to take off anti-Bush shirts as well.

That depends on where you look.

Anti-Bush T-shirt approved


But Rip is wrong. You don't get free speech in public schools.


zendari - you might want to take a look at that link. the school DID NOT approve the shirt. in fact, it did the opposite.

A judge reversed the ruling in a preliminary injunction, and should the school appeal, they would most certainly win.
 

Last Rezort

Banned
Apr 16, 2005
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Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: kogase
Originally posted by: sbacpo

Quite honestly Dave you should be the very last person on this board complaining about misleading or wrong titles and posting things that are totally wrong. The very last.

Way to shoot the messenger, buddy.

And, as has been mentioned, the school is within its rights. I remember threads in here about schools forcing kids to take off anti-Bush shirts as well.

That depends on where you look.

Anti-Bush T-shirt approved


But Rip is wrong. You don't get free speech in public schools.

Not if there are dead babies on the shirt.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: totalcommand
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: kogase
Originally posted by: sbacpo

Quite honestly Dave you should be the very last person on this board complaining about misleading or wrong titles and posting things that are totally wrong. The very last.

Way to shoot the messenger, buddy.

And, as has been mentioned, the school is within its rights. I remember threads in here about schools forcing kids to take off anti-Bush shirts as well.

That depends on where you look.

Anti-Bush T-shirt approved


But Rip is wrong. You don't get free speech in public schools.


zendari - you might want to take a look at that link. the school DID NOT approve the shirt. in fact, it did the opposite.

A judge reversed the ruling in a preliminary injunction, and should the school appeal, they would most certainly win.

So are you saying this judge is activist and wrong?
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: Last Rezort
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip.

If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Problem is the Title is not just misleading but been proven to be totally wrong when it comes to the rights of schools over the students.

Protection from the Pro-death crowd?
Why do they need protection? Are the killers running around with guns shooting people? Are they aborting on campus? I can see it now, young girls running around with metal hangers pulling dead babies out of their vaginas. THESE PEOPLE NEED PROTECTION!

Just came across more info on this story. It appears that the school backed down:

Free Speech in School

by Scott Kauzlarich
In 1969 an Iowa family took a case against their school district all the way to the Supreme Court over whether or not their children could wear black armbands in school to protest the Vietnam War. The now-famous case, Tinker vs. Des Moines Schools, was hailed as a landmark freedom of speech case, with the high court claiming that free speech doesn?t end at the schoolhouse gate.

Properly understood, the Tinker case was not a victory for free expression. It is never a victory for freedom when nine strangers thousands of miles away take a vote to determine the extent to which you can speak your mind.

The More Things Change?

In a landmark case for irony, last week two students from the very same Iowa High School, Roosevelt High in Des Moines, were told to take off their anti-abortion T-shirts.

It was ?National Pro-Life T-Shirt Day,? and two sisters wore shirts that said ?Abortion Kills Kids.? The shirts allegedly caused a small stir, and the girls were sent to the office where they were told to change their clothes.

Needless to say, a major stink was about to ensue. Even the local branch of the ACLU made a statement. It was almost 1969 all over again.

School officials, sensing the awkward position they had put themselves in, backtracked quickly, apologizing to the students and promising to let them wear whatever they liked in the future.

Teenagers: Hapless Demagogue Fodder

This recent T-shirt case is not a victory for pro-life advocates. If the incident reveals anything, it is that Christians are on the outside of an education system that has been cleansed of their core values.

Nor is it any more a free speech victory than Tinker vs. Des Moines was. Freedom of thought represents a real danger to those in power. Only the naïve think that the government seriously wants to promote free speech. They will always sacrifice it in the name of control. So what gives in cases like Tinker?

What is crucial is that the state has nothing to fear from the free expression of teens because teenagers are overwhelmingly ignorant and extremely unethical as a group. This isn?t a permanent state of affairs, just a fact of life for the not-yet-mature.

It?s not surprising that the government stands up for the rights of this group. This is the least dangerous group in America because they can?t yet think for themselves and they are trapped in a government school system like rats. In fact, from the state?s point of view, the more free speech this group has the better?if they feel a false sense of self-importance, it is less likely that they will learn something of real value, something which could upset the status quo.

Furthermore, to promote the individual rights of children weakens the ties they have to their parents, making each generation of youth more susceptible to the state. The government indirectly benefits from the breakdown of institutions like the family and religion because these compete for the allegiance of the citizen.

To give any credence to what children say is contrary to the advancement of knowledge and unhealthy for civilization, upon which freedom of expression ultimately rests. There are enduring and hard-won truths to be passed on to our young people. Allowing them to think that they are the center of the universe and that their uninformed feelings constitute fact leaves them vulnerable to intellectual drift and moral decay.


Separation of School and State
Schools could be wonderful places. In a sane world, they would be private organizations that contracted with parents to give their kids the education they deem fitting. Some schools would be secular, others religious. Some would have dress codes, others would let kids wear whatever they want. The people would choose.

Government schools are inevitably political. They are state institutions and they eventually become organs of the state. Here young minds are indoctrinated to think as their schoolmasters wish, and in America, the state is headmaster. These are the things you can say, these are the things you may not. These are the acceptable ideas, these are the ideas you will ignore.

What are the acceptable ideas in school today? Multi-culturalism, utilitarianism, egality. Young teachers are often discouraged from transmitting useful facts and information. Instead they are prodded to be ?guides on the side,? allowing students to construct their own knowledge.

Or, as Roosevelt Principal Anita Micich put it when discussing the T-shirt flap, ?I want to be sure all the kids are protected in what they express. They should be able to discover who they are and what they believe.?

In this kind of setting, truth becomes opinion, right and wrong just another expediency. What do the kids believe this month? There are no absolutes?so why shouldn?t little Johnny speak his mind? Heck, why shouldn?t Johnny do anything he wants? If it?s wrong, stupid, or destructive, who cares? What is important is what he believes.

Thank goodness for victories like Tinker vs. Des Moines. Thank goodness kids are now free to express themselves and that school is a place for exploring feelings. Tests over feelings are a lot easier than tests over knowledge.

The incidents at Roosevelt High School show how irrational the state school system has become. It?s obvious that in this system political correctness will always trump truth. It?s obvious that educational malpractice, such as allowing the focus of classrooms to be on self-discovery, will flourish. Above all, it?s clearly dangerous to our future to let the government educate our nation?s youth.

Link

I agree with the author. The whole gov't school system should be scrapped and parents should be FREE to send children to the school of their choice.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
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The school's claim disagrees with you, its not the dead baby that bothers them.

From the school principal:
She claims she wanted the Chandlers to remove the shirts to protect them from students who disagreed with the pro-life message they conveyed.

But according to you, the student should just get rid of the baby picture and wear the shirt with the message?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: totalcommand
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: sbacpo
Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip.

If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Problem is the Title is not just misleading but been proven to be totally wrong when it comes to the rights of schools over the students.

Quite honestly Dave you should be the very last person on this board complaining about misleading or wrong titles and posting things that are totally wrong. The very last.

Hmm didn't you just write this?

Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Rip. If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

Let's replace Rip with Dave:

Hopefully every else who answers will stay focused on the topic and not immediately attack Dave. If they do I hope the mods send them off to the time out corner with Conjur.

As for my opinion: I think this has been answered many, many, many times. Schools are well within their authority to do this.

Conservatives try to use this authority that schools have to attack the public school system itself.

They have no actual problem with the free speech part.

Thanks for the support on my six guys :thumbsup:
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
How odd Rip, I don't remember you posting threads when kids were denied the right to wear anti-war t-shirts...

But surely you'll prove me wrong with some links to old threads of yours where you denounce the evil public schools for suppressing students' constitutional rights to express anti-war views, right?