School punishes student for not standing during the pledge of allegiance

[DrPizza]

So half the class of american students refuse to say the pledge? Sounds like a bright future.

I'm almost willing to bet that more than half of American students wouldn't be able to define "allegiance." Yet, they've been saying it every day since Kindergarten.

 

[LTC8K6]

Do they teach people anything in school these days? Because you are frankly, quite wrong.

Tinker v. Des Moines ring a bell?

There are some restrictions, but it mainly focuses on whether exercising one's rights is disruptive to the educational environment. Non-disruptive speech is a perfectly appropriate way for a student to use the freedoms they have in a school setting.

There are lots of restrictions. Try to wear certain t-shirts, or style your hair a certain way, or any of a number of ways to express your thoughts...you will be sent home, or forced to comply.

The child can leave the room during the pledge. That wouldn't be disruptive.

 

[shira]

Stupid kid. As soon as he does that, other kids want to join in and you end up with a disruptive situation.

How dare a significant segment of the student population realize that they actually have the option of remaining seated and not mouthing what to them are meaningless words! How dare the thinking cohort within the general population recognize that swearing that you're a loyal American doesn't in fact have anything to do with actually being a loyal American!

 

[Gerle]

There are lots of restrictions. Try to wear certain t-shirts, or style your hair a certain way, or any of a number of ways to express your thoughts...you will be sent home, or forced to comply.

The child can leave the room during the pledge. That wouldn't be disruptive.

Or the pledge sayers could leave and say the pledge? Why not leave it as is and just let people say it, or not say it. How long does it take, 30-45 seconds? The process of separating the two groups and getting them back together takes longer than saying or not saying the pledge.

 

[drebo]

Unless I'm mistaken, this has already been settled, years ago, by the SC. The kid is in the right; and I truly hope he sues for the civil rights violation. Forcing someone to say a pledge cheapens the pledge - at that point, it becomes a completely meaningless tradition; not that for the most part this isn't already true.

No one is forcing him to say it. However, not standing up is a disruptive act in a school setting. Anyone who believes otherwise is naive.

Would you let one of your students stand for the entirety of the class period as an act of defiance/protest?

 

[Gerle]

Wheelchair bound kids sit all the time... How is being still disruptive?

 

[LTC8K6]

Or the pledge sayers could leave and say the pledge? Why not leave it as is and just let people say it, or not say it. How long does it take, 30-45 seconds? The process of separating the two groups and getting them back together takes longer than saying or not saying the pledge.

Yep. When I was in school, you had to stand, but you didn't have to say anything. This allowed you your freedom, but you didn't stand out from the crowd.

My argument is about supposed freedoms of students. They have very little.

They can't even make a pop tart pistol or a finger gun without being arrested.

 

[shira]

No one is forcing him to say it. However, not standing up is a disruptive act in a school setting. Anyone who believes otherwise is naive.

As a premise, let's assume that the recitation of the pledge of allegiance has meaning; let's assume the "meaning" is "I feel a strong commitment to America, and I believe that freely making a public statement of that commitment every day of the week is important."

Okay, then during this "message" period, how do those with a different opinion make THEIR statement without being disruptive? If they stand but don't say anything, almost no one around them will be able to tell that they're not actually reciting the pledge, and that would effectively eliminate their message. No, the only way to clearly communicate a dissenting viewpoint without being disruptive is to remain seated.

Or are you claiming that only students who want to express loyalty are allowed to communicate a message?

Would you let one of your students stand for the entirety of the class period as an act of defiance/protest?

Of course not, because the rest of the class period is devoted to teaching, not to making or declining to make a loyalty oath. So it would be just as out of line to "stand in defiant protest" during the teaching period as it would be to talk on a mobile phone.

 

[Subyman]

Do you want them to be forced to say it, do you want them to just recite it without understanding it, what is it you envision?

I see them wanting to. What is causing this kid to not want to say the pledge? Is he already alienated from our nation? Is it a play for power because the student wants to test the limits? Is it his "thing" so he stands out from his peers?

He said he "decided" when he was in kindergarden not to say the pledge. The genesis of his resistance certainly didn't stem from social injustices because I doubt a kindergartener knows much about NSA spying, especially 9 years ago when he was in kindergarten.

I find it fascinating that a young american would refuse to say the pledge all the way through grade school and into high school.

I would love to hear from him what the government could change for him to voluntarily say the pledge. I'd imagine it'd be an impossible list. "World peace" and such

 

[Subyman]

FWIW, I am NOT for him being punished. I never said I was, nor being forced to say anything. I simply don't understand the mindset of not saying it. If it were a religious thing, I could see that.

 

[mrjminer]

FWIW, I am NOT for him being punished. I never said I was, nor being forced to say anything. I simply don't understand the mindset of not saying it. If it were a religious thing, I could see that.

It could have something to do with being a piece of shit, but here's the reason he gave:

“I’m really tired of our government taking advantage of us,” said Michalec. “I don’t agree with the NSA spying on us.”

 

[ch33zw1z]

oh gee, it's in Texas...why I am not surprised.

 

[alzan]

FWIW, I am NOT for him being punished. I never said I was, nor being forced to say anything. I simply don't understand the mindset of not saying it. If it were a religious thing, I could see that.

Just as he and others may not understand the mindset of people who do say it.

Upholding the ideals and principles for which the flag stands is orders of magnitude more important then saying the pledge. A member of the military swears to defend and uphold the Constitution, not the flag. The flag is only a symbol.

 

[senseamp]

FWIW, I am NOT for him being punished. I never said I was, nor being forced to say anything. I simply don't understand the mindset of not saying it. If it were a religious thing, I could see that.

Because he doesn't want to be forced by the state to pledge allegiance to any flag? If school wants to educate students to inspire allegiance to a flag, then it can, but to force them to pledge it is unacceptable, especially when it comes to underage children.

 

[senseamp]

No one is forcing him to say it. However, not standing up is a disruptive act in a school setting. Anyone who believes otherwise is naive.

Would you let one of your students stand for the entirety of the class period as an act of defiance/protest?

Standing up for entirety of the class obstructs view of other students and interferes with their education. Sitting down for the pledge does not interfere with other students' ability to say the pledge if they so choose.
That's what makes for a free country, people are free to do things as long as they don't interfere with the freedom of others.
Additionally refusing to stand up for the pledge, which is a political statement, is in itself political expression, protected under the first amendment.

 

[MasterOfUsers]

Maybe he should have adhered to the real traditional way of doing it and stand up in full Nazi salute?

 

[Rakehellion]

You don't have freedom in school, though.

Plenty of choices you can't make.

Plenty of restrictions on your freedom in school.

The administration has plenty of restrictions too. That is, they can't do anything illegal.

 

[MongGrel]

The administration has plenty of restrictions too. That is, they can't do anything illegal.

They all ready have, in this case.

 

[Rakehellion]

If it were a religious thing, I could see that.

Ha. What if it's just a personal thing and they don't want to take arbitrary orders from any God, teacher, or country? Is that not acceptable?

 

[tommo123]

So half the class of american students refuse to say the pledge? Sounds like a bright future.

of course half the class being forced to say the pledge under fear of punishment is a rosy future indeed. :hmm:

 

[FaaR]

of course half the class being forced to say the pledge under fear of punishment is a rosy future indeed. :hmm:

Precisely.

Those being incredulous, or uncomprehending as to why anyone would not want to mechanically, compulsively recite a pledge of allegiance to a fucking piece of cloth, just show that they don't have the first clue as to what freedom really is.

 

[shira]

I see them wanting to. What is causing this kid to not want to say the pledge? Is he already alienated from our nation? Is it a play for power because the student wants to test the limits? Is it his "thing" so he stands out from his peers?

He said he "decided" when he was in kindergarden not to say the pledge. The genesis of his resistance certainly didn't stem from social injustices because I doubt a kindergartener knows much about NSA spying, especially 9 years ago when he was in kindergarten.

I find it fascinating that a young american would refuse to say the pledge all the way through grade school and into high school.

I would love to hear from him what the government could change for him to voluntarily say the pledge. I'd imagine it'd be an impossible list. "World peace" and such

I personally wouldn't recite the Pledge under any circumstances, and I imagine most other people who won't make the Pledge feel the same way.

Why? Because the Pledge is a stupid, meaningless oath. Whether you feel loyalty or disloyalty to America, reciting the Pledge does nothing to change those feelings.

"Look at me; I'm not a traitor!" Is this what "patriots" think the Pledge means?

 

[davmat787]

Making the Pledge of Allegiance compulsory and punishable if not performed is therefor no longer a Pledge of Allegiance and useless.

 

[feralkid]

Stupid kid. As soon as he does that, other kids want to join in and you end up with a disruptive situation.

"Disruptive situations" are what built this great nation.

Get off your pansy ass and stand up for freedom.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The kid doesn't have to stand or recite the pledge, as long as he is not disruptive he's fine. Most of the people in the article just don't get it. Freedom means just that, he has a choice.

I forgot to mention I'm by now in my fifteenth year as an active duty Marine.

Thank you for your service, I'm glad to see another person took their oath to "Support and defend the Constitution to heart" and fully concur with your stance on this issue.

From the article in the OP it appears another veteran feels the same way.

Only one man KHOU11 spoke to, saw things another way.

“The kid’s well-spoken and he’s well-informed,” said Needville neighbor Dean Reese. “It’s not like he’s ignorant, he’s not doing it to make people mad. He’s doing it because of his personal beliefs.”

Reese believes punishing Mason for speaking his mind, sends the wrong message.

“I’m a veteran, I’m not real big on flag-burning or anything like that, but this country is a free country and we’re free to do what we want,” he said.

And, like in the town of Needville, free to disagree about it.